Will machines become conscious someday?

[Write4U]

@ Write 4-U,
I had indicated I was done with this thread, however will quickly add on to your answer. In computers, information in memory is accessed by polling its precise memory address. This is known as byte-addressable memory. In contrast, the brain uses content-addressable memory, such that information can be accessed in memory through “spreading activation” from closely related concepts.

THIS IS HUGE! It means our decision boxes can go in a thousand different directions as opposed to just two directions with computer software.

Perhaps you should check up on the latest research into nano technology and quantum computing. Speed will not be a problem.

When we can custom fold proteins for specific functions, we can build living, sentient beings. Not human, but sentient.

http://fold.it/portal/info/science

For example, thinking of the word “fox” may automatically spread activation to memories related to other clever animals, fox-hunting horseback riders, or attractive members of the opposite sex. Short term memory is not RAM.

I won't argue the particulars of size and speed, but when you use the word "fox" in a search engine on the internet you will get all the answers you just provided, complete with images. And all that information was simulataneously available everywhere. Was the internet "curious" about a "fox" for just a moment?

A computer cannot originate a thought. It can emulate creativity, but no creativity can exist. A mind can envision a solution or an invention that nobody else has ever conceived, and this would be impossible for a computer to do. A computer can improve current inventions, but the creativity needed to originate a new invention is not there.

http://lateralaction.com/articles/computers-creativity/
http://www.dtreg.com/

A brain is an organism and does not require software. There is no program running inside our heads. It is organic. There is no hardware/Software distinctions. Come to me with a computer that needs no program and I will reconsider, but no such device seems possible yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network

I googled those other differences, but the main one in my books is the way the brain fires when accessing memories.

I do know programming is nothing more than comparing and comparing and comparing. Our brains abilities to access memories using content-addressable memory is a huge difference. You can instantly recall any restaurant throughout your entire life, however a computer program would need to ask itself thousands and thousands of yes or no questions to access data similar,, and it would need to be following a program.

My last post says it all. Computers can only compare 2 things at a time.
If the letter A is pressed Then Put a letter A in the box on the screen.
If Controller button B is pressed Then Start Firing subroutine in game.
IF player is in new zone THEN send a combatant,
IF player is re-attacking NPC THEN have NPC combatant hide behind barrel.
IF player runs towards barrel THEN have NPC combatant roll left and fire and then retreat behind wagon
IF player retreats THEN have NPC combatant chase the player until dead
of course all of the actions require their own graphics instructions in long subroutines.
etc, etc.
The idea it can be conscious is Asinine, but asinine is also not a strong enough word.

Sentience does not seem to be a big deal in nature? Seriously.

It is a bigger deal than anything mankind can do. I would take the evolved slugs intelligence over some of what I have seen displayed in this thread.

??? What can man not do??? Have sentience, just like the slug, or an advanced slug like a cuttle fish? It is one of the common denominators of being classified as an living organism. All living things that react to stimulus are sentient, down to the chemical and even quantum level. The universe itself is an artificial sentience (see David Bohm). How is it that the universe allows creation and evolution of species and intelligence? From single celled amoebas to the human brain, from whence the Creativity?
Are you telling me that intelligence and creativity is unnatural or supernatural?

@ Write4U,

Where to begin.

Did you miss my last post? There is no such thing as AI specific computers. There is only one event involved in seemingly "intelligent" machines and that boils down to IF/THEN statements. This is true of ANY computer and program. THERE IS NO AI SPECIFIC COMPUTER. Now because of the amount of YES/NO decisions required to make a machine appear intelligent it might need the highest processing speeds imaginable, but it is no way different from any other computer when it comes to how decisions are made in programming.

It is nice how you personify your AI computer with the term synapse. It reminds me of how my daughter named her dolly sally, but she outgrew that by the age of 10. Perhaps you should outgrow that type of thinking as well. Computers do not have synapses. They are more like gates that open and close. Even if a super duper ultra modern new fangled computer hit the market it would still need a program that asked a zillion yes or no questions to direct its actions. It would still need software. IT would not become intuitive and know what software to skip over.

This thread is insane.

Humans are being programmed from the moment they are born. This is via the mirror neural system and we are beginning to build these in computers. Combining this technology with Holographic technology we might actually be able to follow the thought patterns of a computer as it constructs images.

Every visionary has been declared insane by someone who did not stop to consider our extraordinary ability to create.

No one is saying that we can do this now, but learning is an exponential function and I am confident that we will be able to construct sophisticated decision making computers very shortly (perhaps a few decades)

 

[ElectricFetus]

Again read the links about neuromorphic chips, they are not software or "programmed" they operate in a in hardware manner meant to replicate (reverse engineer) the functions of biological neurons and synapses in silico!

"A new "neuromorphic" design instead tries to recreate the brain's hardware, using analogue components last seen in the early days of computing. "On our system, you can physically point to the neuron," says Karlheinz Meier of the University of Heidelberg in Germany." -- http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628925.100-brainlike-chip-outstrips-normal-computers.html

 

[kangle]

Of course machines will be conscious, the human brain has a certain number of neural connections, the computer doesnt compare at the moment but every day its getting closer, so the computer will not only be smarter then the human brain, but it will be comparable to humans to the monkeys, except in this case the humans are the monkeys..........but nevertheless even if i was wrong about this, i could still argue that machines will without a doubt be conscious in the future,as we replace our bodies with mechanical parts, prosthetics controlled by microchips in the brain already do this, we will become the machines, stop thinking about it as in the Matrix its us against the machines, everyday we are advancing in turning our weak human body into a mechanical machine. Think about this.... our brain passes data, once we can process the same data at a faster rate, we theoretically could copy the data, or even transfer it. The U.S army already uses prosthetics that make their injured soldiers not just ready for combat, but faster and stronger then they were originally. through prosthetics robotic legs and arms. So imagine we could give you a synthetic avatar, that looked and felt human in everyway, and then simple copied your brain data, ur conscious into this machine. Then the machine would have conscious and could technically live for ever.

But if you are bit more imaginative you could also realise that once this happens, space travel will never be an issue for us, as machines time would no longer be as relevant, but imagine we could find a planet with intelligent life, if they had machines, we could send our conscious across space and simply upload at the other side.

even on a smaller scale if you remove space travel it would mean that we could instantly travel anywhere around the world, teleportation. Emails only take a second, when internet speeds are that fast and we are machines, wouldnt you upload where you wanted to be?

The Oldest Human Ever Found was 7 Million Years Old, and in 7 Million Years of Human Evolution, We are the first generation that has the possibility of living forever through machines, and even if the first model isnt that good, who cares you can upgrade, but the human body dies and leaves this world. We, as a species are very close and we should really be trying much harder to reach that goal sooner.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

When we do create a true AI, it might be nice if it had a human form body to get around in. Please watch the current state in robotics in the video at the link below.

http://videos.huffingtonpost.com/world/humanoid-robot-to-be-born-in-months-517655432

 

[Pithikos]

I probably won't comment again after this as the argument is idiotic, however.
A computer program has ONLY 1 operation it can do over and over again. It can ONLY decide between 2 choices. It can decide between 2 choices many times a second, but it can only decide between two choices.

The human brain can't multitask either. You can't think about two things at the same time, thus a linear calculation is sufficient to mimic the human thought.

Now a computer can be given more than one option this is true, but like i have said they must be compared one at a time. No computer program exists that will allow a computer to intuitively skip over any comparison.

What about object oriented programming? That does quite simply that. Most of the code in a program with graphic interface never runs. Other than that you could have some thousands of comparisons on the same line and thus be certain that part of the code never runs on specific occasions. It is complex but it's doable.

Example:

IF (wife NOT here AND hungry AND NOT thirsty AND only me in kitchen AND kitchen looks like last time without the people AND mood is relaxed AND NOT other things to do AND not visible moving objects)
THEN
(make a sandwitch)

Programming is all about if/then statements in whatever languages you learn. ...

I truly believe that a person's one day can be analyzed to some millions if-then-else sentences. Find a programmer with patience and he can make a replica out of you. Is the replica going to have consciousness? Probably not. That would take some more coding.

STOP TALKING CRAZY. This is a science forum, not fairy tale land.

What many programmers lack is imagination.

 

[leopold]

When we do create a true AI, . . .

we already have decent AI.
for specific purposes some AIs are almost perfected.
it's relatively easy to write a car diagnosis program.
getting a computer to emulate intelligence isn't really a problem.
getting it to decode what a CCD sends it is a different matter.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

we already have decent AI.
for specific purposes some AIs are almost perfected.
it's relatively easy to write a car diagnosis program.
getting a computer to emulate intelligence isn't really a problem.
getting it to decode what a CCD sends it is a different matter.

I did say true AI, not emulated intelligence.

 

[leopold]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18wSJs6LIc0

 

[Write4U]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18wSJs6LIc0

Now imagine a self motivating operating system which tries to observe, learn, and classify everything it sees, hears, smells (tastes), and senses for three years among normally functioning adults. This is what human children do, from the moment we are born we begin to absorb knowledge of our surroundings.

AI is only limited by processing power and storage capacity.....and clinical curiosity.

 

[Pithikos]

I don't think plugging consciousness into a machine is that hard. The big deal is to make the machine creative. If that can be solved then I don't think there is a single hinder to make a robot do exactly what a human does: think, have consciousness, have emotions, draw, sing, come up with new solutions to problems.

 

[Write4U]

Creativity may well be an emergent property of need. If a slime mold (colony of brainless amoebas) can navigate a maze, a robot with "curiosity" and "desire" to experiment should be able to recognize, analyze, process and act, based on incomplete data.

Just look at the extraordinary complexity and beauty of fractals which are simple self duplicating programs. In fact the very fabric of the universe may well be fractal based. (see Renate Loll, CDT (causal dynamic triangulation). An abstract idea which is not in conflict with either Relativity and QM, and that is something.

God does not bring anything to knowledge of the universe, except an unprovable speculation.

 

[leopold]

The big deal is to make the machine creative.

this might not be as hard as you think.
the REAL problem in this area is DEFINING what creativity is.
if you define creativity as making something that has never been seen before then yes computers can create.

 

[Write4U]

this might not be as hard as you think.
the REAL problem in this area is DEFINING what creativity is.
if you define creativity as making something that has never been seen before then yes computers can create.

IMO, there is no law in nature which forbids robots from becoming sentient is there? We do know a little about evolution (data) and nano-technology. In principle IA is a perfect candidate for being programmed to evolve into sentience.

 

[Pithikos]

this might not be as hard as you think.
the REAL problem in this area is DEFINING what creativity is.
if you define creativity as making something that has never been seen before then yes computers can create.

Of course that is not creativity. Every single calculation made by a machine would then be considered creativity.
Creativity is to take two or more abstract/concrete things and combine parts of them to create a new abstract/concrete thing. To me that seems hard to create in a very defined environment.

 

[leopold]

Of course that is not creativity. Every single calculation made by a machine would then be considered creativity.
Creativity is to take two or more abstract/concrete things and combine parts of them to create a new abstract/concrete thing. To me that seems hard to create in a very defined environment.

can you create patterns with a spirograph set?
what if you could adjust the holes in the gears, would the result be termed "creative"?

 

[leopold]

Of course that is not creativity. Every single calculation made by a machine would then be considered creativity.
Creativity is to take two or more abstract/concrete things and combine parts of them to create a new abstract/concrete thing. To me that seems hard to create in a very defined environment.

we can precisely define chaotic equations that give an infinite boundary to a finite surface.
some genius comes along and 1 ups everyone with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbulb
remember, that's from a well defined formula.

 

[leopold]

it's my opinion that if the human mind can be emulated by sheer processing power alone then the internet itself will provide the solution.

 

[spidergoat]

A computer coming alive is impossible.

I disagree. Present day computers won't come alive, but future types of neural networks might. It would take a different kind of architecture. It would have to be self-learning.

 

[kwhilborn]

I agree. I think I had said that earlier as well. It would need to be self learning and be from the future.

From post 92,

Now if a computer is designed in the future that learns the way we do then that might be something.

@ leopold,
not very active on this thread but...

I said - I learned the BASIC language inside out as a teenager and went on to learn several other computer languages and also have designed many websites.

You said - there is no such thing as "a basic language".
there are several dialects with some having major revisions,floppy drive and floating point math support for example.

There most certainly was a language called BASIC.

From Wikipedia

BASIC is a family of general-purpose, high-level programming languages whose design philosophy emphasizes ease of use; the name is an acronym from Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code.

Remember...

10 INPUT "What is your name: ", U$
20 PRINT "Hello "; U$
30 INPUT "How many stars do you want: ", N
40 S$ = ""
50 FOR I = 1 TO N
60 S$ = S$ + "*"
70 NEXT I
80 PRINT S$
90 INPUT "Do you want more stars? ", A$
100 IF LEN(A$) = 0 THEN GOTO 90
110 A$ = LEFT$(A$, 1)
120 IF A$ = "Y" OR A$ = "y" THEN GOTO 30
130 PRINT "Goodbye "; U$
140 END

I have been programming since the age of 9.

I had a 16k computer worth $1400.00 (TRS-80)

When I entered High School I had some Grade 9 classes but was taking Grade 11 Computer classes and teaching other students more than I learned. How could you NOT know about Basic?

When all if/then statements needed a goto statement at the end, and all lines needed numbering. All programming today is still simply a variety of if/then statements and actions.

In the 90's it was updated to be "VISUAL BASIC". I said I learned BASIC as a teenager. I did not say last week.

 

[leopold]

@ leopold,
There most certainly was a language called BASIC.

not "a basic".
like your quote stated, BASIC was a FAMILY of languages, these differences are known as dialects.

I have been programming since the age of 9.

doesn't mean much.
programming is a skill that you either have it or you don't.
those that DO have it quickly run out of challenges except for the oddball hard glitches.
challenges such as new and novel problems.

I had a 16k computer worth $1400.00 (TRS-80)

oh my god, a cassette drive.
at least mine had 2 percom floppies, each gave about 150K of external storage.

How could you NOT know about Basic?

BASIC is the worst name that could be given to that language.
the syntax was duck soup to understand and with machine code could match ANYTHING today.

When all if/then statements needed a goto statement at the end, . . .

the BASIC i cut my teeth on was available around 1982 or so and included the else clause.
this improvement resulted in more compact code because you didn't need a separate line for each if then.
it also allowed you to set variables before executing a goto.

and all lines needed numbering.

i seem to have a great deal of problems with a program that doesn't have line numbers.
a holdover from machine code programming maybe?

All programming today is still simply a variety of if/then statements and actions.

you keep forgetting the human factor for some reason.

In the 90's it was updated to be "VISUAL BASIC". I said I learned BASIC as a teenager. I did not say last week.

visual basic is okay if you are into windows type of programs.
i've found that the most need for programs are of the "specialized" types.
straight basic is perfect for these types of applications.