God does not want robots. True love (omnibenevolence) means God will not dictate your choices and that means the consequences must be allowed to play out (to the bitter end in some cases).
Why would God punish children for the sins of their fathers?
- Thread starter SetiAlpha6
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God does not want robots. True love (omnibenevolence) means God will not dictate your choices and that means the consequences must be allowed to play out (to the bitter end in some cases).
Clearly and omnipotent god could create beings that had free will and yet did not commit evil or sin. Clearly, since this hasn't been the case god is either not omnipotent or is not omnibenevolent.
Or: there simply is not god and people invent magical explanations for things they have difficulty understanding.
Or: there simply is not god and people invent magical explanations for things they have difficulty understanding.
Yea sure no problem. I'm busy right now. (wow that sounds like a answering machine) Anyway I will try to make a post later today, probably tonight.
Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><
Can you please explain this little gem of a verse to me please?
Deuteronomy 23:2
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
Thanks!
*************
M*W: It must mean that we are all bastards, and we shouldn't enter into a congregation of the lord. Sounds like an advertisement for atheism. Count me in.
God deals with us according to our perceptions and understanding. The Israelites had just come out of slavery and God had to set some strict rules so they wouldn't slip back into the surrounding heathen practices. They didn't know how to act on principle. These bastard children were the result of Balaam's advice to seduce the Israelites into immoral practices (see verse 5). The consequences of sexual immorality was bastard children.
O.K... So these children were completely innocent of those immoral practices... So...? They were being kicked out of the congregation merely for being born in the wrong family, or under the wrong circumstances? So you are perhaps saying that they indeed were being kicked out of the congregation, for 10 generations, because of the sins of their parents? And why exactly is this their fault again? I truely do not understand this!
What do you think of the term "bastard"? Should such a word, or concept, even be once mentioned in the Bible?
As for slavery, it would appear that, in the Old Testament, the Israelites were rescued from slavery under the Egyptians, by God. Possibly because, I don't know, slavery was wrong or even evil. But then God allowed and even commanded that the Israelites then enslave many of their own enemies. So if it was done to them it was wrong, but if they did it to anyone else it apparently was considered right? I do not understand this either!
Thanks!
Trying to figure out the mess that is the bible is...a endless task.
Amen!
I do not think it is god handing this punishment, more like people! A real judge would punish for the intention and knowledge of the crime.
Someone should start a thread on Karma, if they know enough about it, I never read much on the idea.
Someone should start a thread on Karma, if they know enough about it, I never read much on the idea.
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It certainly is not their fault, but the eventual compromising influence they would have had on the other Israelites would have spoiled the pot. The children will eventally become adults and the morality they learned would be the same as their parents most likely. Further, just because they were excluded from the congregation doesn't mean they had lost there chance. It is just that they had to reapply for membership so to speak.
As far as Israelites practicing slavery, they were ignorant or in rebellion. God worked with them at their level of understanding.
There is a point that God rejects a nation. Humans can push sinful practices to the point where God can no longer reach them. At that point they are destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah or He uses some other agency like the Israelites to carry it out.
You mean Mosad?
First of all thank you so much for dividing them up. Now let's hash this out. Ready? Go.
Ok. Let's go back to the first time God carried out punishment. Adam. Everyone after Adam suffered. Why? Because of Adam? NO. Everyone who has come after Adam has sinned. I think you were the one quoting from Romans 3 in your other thread. I says a little something like No one is good. I am sorry I do not see God killing innocent people. Let me clarify. It says:
Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Notice how it says own sin. None of us are innocent. Well that doesn't explain it, but it does. We see countless times how God does not forsake those who call on Him. When it says He will punish the children the children are without sin? They are still in sin and sinful. I do not believe that God is going to punish the ones who have faith in Him. Notice also how the first versus are talking about being put to death. Like it was brought up earlier how STD's are past on and the term "crackbabies." Do they deserve it? They didn't do it. Well all I can say is this is the effect of sin in the world. Some do have it worse than others, in our eyes. Unfortunately the affects of the parents do hinder the child. Such as interracial children. I live where this is frowned upon. It makes it crappy for the kid. The parents do have responsibility. If you are a crappy parent you will make it hard on your kid. It is a natural consequence. But you will say. God punishing the innocent children?! How can you wiggle out of that?! They were apart from it!! They couldn't help it! We can not help that we are born into the world. Once we are we are and can't change that. Why should I be born into a middle-class family instead of a upper-class one. Why can I walk and my best friend can't? Because we chose and choose to disobey God and this is the consequence of sin. Still there is no verse that will tell you God will not answer those who call on Him. He does. He answers.
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How could He?
The "pot" was already spoiled. Yet, they couldn't reapply for "membership", as you put it, for something on the order of 400 years? The enforcement of the Mosaic Law would have killed off all of the real "evil doers" in only the very first generation. It was rather good at that! If you did not obey the Law in this area you were simply killed. None Left! Problem Solved! So, why do we need to do this to 9 more generations?
Would you recommend this practice today?
What do you think of the term "bastard", kl5k? Should such a word, or concept, ever be mentioned in the Bible as a legitimate way of looking at another human being, even once? Would you ever teach this word to your own children? How many people are there out there today that you would consider to be illegitimate humans by birth? Do you think it is right to slap this label on an innocent child? You skipped or missed this question.
Thanks Again!
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I understand what you are saying and I agree with the bit about natural consequences, but...
1. The following verse clearly gives the reason this child died, and it is obviously not because of natural consequences. The one who was guilty, David, lived. He did not die for his own sin, So...
2 Samuel 12:13-14
13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."
2. Please explain the following verse. Any Ideas?
Deuteronomy 23:2
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
3. Please provide the natural consequences involved in the verse below.
Isaiah 14:21
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.
Well, that is a few to start on, anyway. Perhaps you can eliminate them one by one.
It is late and I do not want to catch your mono!
Thank you for your post!
Yes I don't use the word bastard. I wouldn't recommend using it today in our poticially correct, hyper sensitive culture. I only used it because you brought up that word. The NKJV of the bible does not contain the word, BTW.
I am glad! That is what I thought! But do you think it?
I realize that other versions, fortunately, do not use the word "bastard" anymore. That is good, or adaptive, or something. I don't know! But, the "concept" of what was being communicated usually remains, so this changes little, in my mind.
The question on the table at this point might be then; do you personally think that God could ever judge a person merely for being born to a mother and father who sinned? I would guess that you would say no, just as I would. Justice would demand that each person be judged according to his or her own sin, not for the sin of another? That is what other parts of the Bible tell you. And that is also what your heart tells you, right? So why is a Law like this, a Law that looks this bad, embedded in something that is supposed to be the "Law of God"? You must answer that question for yourself.
The easy way out here, and you are of course free to take it, is to simply say something like, "I do not understand these verses". That is a perfectly good answer as far as I am concerned. Scientists run into things that they cannot explain, all the time. But, that does not mean that they always throw out their entire theory, because of it. Take a look at Quantum Mechanics sometime. They are usually willing to modify their theory to match the evidence, ever more closely. There certainly are many, many, many things that I do not understand! But that is what I am imperfectly trying to do with my concept of God.
Right or wrong, my own conclusion so far is that God could never have said or commanded this, and that it is incorrectly being attributed to Him. But I have a lot to learn in every area of my life. You must do what you think is right, of course!
Thank you, once again!
ok let's try this
its not uncommon for atheists to raise the objection that if God does in fact exist, then why hasn't he solved the issue of evil in the world. The answer is of course that he is dealing with the issue of evil, but in a progressive manner. Atheists incorrectly assume that God's only choice is to deal with the problem all at once in a single act. God, however, is dealing with the issue of evil through his justice system (dharma - religious rules, karma - resultant acts according to the obedience/transgression of those rules, samsara - the booby prize, ie repeated birth and death in the material world).
The atheist is then likely to respond that it shouldn't take so long for an omnipotent god to deal with the issue of evil, to which the answer is: "Let's say that right now, god asserted that all evil in existence will now simply cease to be. In other words every human being in creation would simply vanish into non existence. Is this an acceptable solution for you?"
The atheist is then likely to demand that a better solution must be available. They would probably suggest that God should have created living entities in such a fashion that people would avoid evil completely . This idea falls on its face since such a scenario means we would no longer have the facility of free will. This situation requires that God manufactures robots who act only in pre-programmed ways.
If the atheist insists saying there must be a better solution to the issue of evil, one can give them this easy test. What is the solution to the problem of evil that
(a) does not infringe on human freedom, or
(b) acts in such a fashion to cause god to violate His constitutional attributes in some way.
Don't expect much of an answer.