Why worship an imperfect God?

[Quantum Quack]

No problem. Here is something else

I ask myself: is this what a preconception is? Is a preconception something that reduces things to their fore, or what is the theory in actual theory about what a preconception is?

My figuring is that, a preconception of Gods existence would include (plz post in the forum!) a realization of all the faults and errors made possible through thought of other minor individuals who defend t heir god, and other major individuals who defend their god and call themselves theists;--- to take their beliefs, and subject them to the rational being presented at the moment. Afterall is not God subject to the controversy of God. Is not a preconception of God precisely what must be examinend through others beliefs and missteps? If I were to examine God on the level that says that he does exist through the beliefs of someone who controverses about him/her, I would come to the conclusion that God must have an existence entitled to him/her. God exists. God is not dead. Were God dead there would be no God to discuss, no god in heaven, no god in concept, no god in preconception, no God whatsoever. However, noticing that God may or may not exist gives light still to the ideas that God is subject to the preconception of the individuals thoughts hitherto mentionend. He is subject to their misdermeaners. If God exists at my foot, does that mean that God exists at my foot? How else can God exist except through the physicial? Except through an electron?

God therefore is subject to imperfection, as he cannot be properly classed, unless given a proper attribute.

written by existabrent date:today

a preconception is simply a belief that preceeds another belief hopefully leading towards knowledge. I guess.

A bit like saying all orangatangs are lazy before actually meeting one [as in stereo typing ]....this is a preconception or prior belief that all orangatangs are lazy before you have met an orangatang as such.
So I am not at all confident that you are using the correct word but await for your explanation....
pre-conception is a bias and an issue of arrogance and bigotry. [ precursor for discrimination based on a past event or belief that may no longer be founded or even close to the truth]

"I have a preconception that the God of Christian worship is insane thus this thread"
"There fore until I have evidence to suggest that he is not insane I shall live by that pre-conception"
"nailing his son to a cross to prove a point is not my idea of rational behaviour thus imperfect and crazy he must be"

 

[Quantum Quack]

one very good reason why people in the west are so confused about the issue of violence is that most Christians actually worship it. And this is incredible when you consider that if I nailed someone to a cross today I woudl be either executed [ capital punishment ] or sent to an insane asylum.

You have children growing up in a paradox of morality and ethics. A bible that condones and justifies violence and a society that is desparately trying to erradicate this sort of justification.

No wonder we have a problem with war and violent crime...
"that God will punish us violently for our sins"...hmmm....mankind is gradually moving towards rehabilitation and education to avoid such violent punishments. We recognise human failing and how significant religious and social conditioning is to the health of our people....the bible unfortunately depending on how you read it condones violence and violent punishment. So therefore it suffers extremely from a loss of credibility as a book of wisdom and sanity...IMO

 

[Tnerb]

Dirtywhite and Quantum Quack:

Please delete the posts (and I will delete this one) relating to my post that I have deleted.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Dirtywhite and Quantum Quack:

Please delete the posts (and I will delete this one) relating to my post that I have deleted.

no reason to delete anything Sisyphus as far as I can tell...

 

[Tnerb]

but.................!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lori_7]

Lori I guessed that you would say that....hmmm..

But if you wanted to you could state that the worlds problems could be reduced down to simply not accepting responsibiliy for our desires.
For example:

Is poverty a problem when we refuse to share what we have.....we have decided to not support the growth of a poor person for example. Is the resultant poverty and associated crime a problem or is it as we would expect due to our greedy need for resources?

I.E. So we blame someone elses desires for our need of high tech, consumer goods made in China destroying thousands of lives and acres of environment...supporting a governement that has huge human rights issues...

See what I mean...

Take responsibility for our desires and therefore our actions, wear the consequences and soon you will have "heaven" on earth.

i totally agree with you, many of our desires are sinful and because we refuse to see that and we act on them, we're destroying ourselves, each other, and our planet, and as long as people refuse to see, there will never be an end to it for them. but i see, and i know i'm not the only one, and i want to change.

 

[heart]

LOL, you missed the point he saves from death physical and spiritual

Saves us from physical and spiritual death? How? Are you saying that christians do not die physically?
As far as spiritual death, it clearly states that those in hell are tormented for eternity...how are they to die spiritually?

and frankly he would be insane to give every an eternal blessing to those that would try destroy him.

Destroy God?!?! How can a mere mortal destroy the all poweful God?

also hell is seperate topic becuase "hell was made for the Devil and his angels" who was involved in that first sin, so in effect he is trying to restore man's relationship with himself.

What does it matter who hell was created for if people can end up there anyway?

I don't know about you, but if I was wanting to restore a relationship with someone, I sure the heck wouldn't threaten hell and create laws that send them there just because they don't live like I want them to. That's a bit extreme. He really should get a book or google how to create loving and healthy relationships without threats and violence. But, hey...that's just me.

That said if you don't like him, why would he let you into his "house"? If you oppose his attempts to save you he has no chioce but to let you die. In his own words "Why should you die? I take no pleasure in the death of him who dies."

Hey, true dat. Though, we are talking about a God who is suppose to be an unconditional loving kinda of God. This bullshit of him not wishing anyone to perish is garbage or he wouldn't have created laws for people to be sent to hell. It's that simple.

Why a tortorous place? Why not send those who you love dearly to a NICE place? Why not create another place for them. a place they can sit quietly and read or party it up with the other peeps there? Hey, and if they wanted to go to hell instead, at least they would be exercising true free will to do so. Then Lori would get to truly see for sure if people want to be in hell or not, I think she just might be surprised.

 

[Lori_7]

*************
M*W: Why is it then, Lori, that you believe you are in hell in this life, but I don't sense that I am? I'm not a proud person. I do good for others who are less fortunate than I. I appreciate all that I've been given, and all that I've earned, in this life. Theists have accused me so many times of being "bitter," but I'm not a bitter person.

because you're blind.

I would like for you to explain to me why you think "people choose to stay in hell?" People make their own hell, and I am sorry that you have done that to yourself.

because they're blind. and don't think you're off the hook mw. you may wish you were better than i or anyone else, but you're just as guilty as the rest of us if not more, and i say if not more only because you deny that you're sinful.

"Repenting" means "to stop those negative actions (sin) that you have commited toward yourself and others and do it no more." It is about you. It is about me. It is about everyone who accepts responsibility for themselves. Why do you believe this all revolves around a mythical character whom you think can save you from yourself?

yes it is a choice, but back to the topic of this thread, we are born in sin like a birth defect. one that you seem to think you've escaped or overcome, and thank you for illustrating my point in that, as long as people remain blind, this world will remain this horrible. so thanks mw really...no, really. it is my belief that there is a blood line of christ remaining on this earth. one that would be impossible if he was a mythical character, not to mention my relationship with god as a result of him. i believe that this bloodline and the forthcoming result of it is the secret of the holy grail, and that the result of it will be redemption of sin, in that those born into the new kingdom of christ, will be born through him, and of his blood, which will be, or is perfected, so we will be perfect too.

 

[(Q)]

we are born in sin like a birth defect.

Humans are a wondrous thing. The ongoing complex organism of much simpler organisms evolving to a species able to study and comprehend the universe around it.

To make statements such as Lori's only serves to demonstrate that humans themselves can belie that wonder. The cause, of course, is that which has enslaved mankind for centuries, pulverized into the human mind from birth to emerge later as irrational ignorance. And note, Lori, I said from birth.

Purporting ridiculous notions that a newborn child can anymore comprehend the world around them let alone concepts of sin establishes how the indoctrinated theist is incapable of leaping beyond their one-dimensional, faith-based concepts of mankind.

it is my belief that there is a blood line of christ remaining on this earth. one that would be impossible if he was a mythical character, not to mention my relationship with god as a result of him. i believe that this bloodline and the forthcoming result of it is the secret of the holy grail, and that the result of it will be redemption of sin, in that those born into the new kingdom of christ, will be born through him, and of his blood, which will be, or is perfected, so we will be perfect too.

The indoctrinated theist is unable to think and can only string together phrases of biblical gibberish, rote-applied drivel that somehow relates to the topic at hand, fairy tales so intricately contrived we almost intrinsically fill in ourselves every ending taradiddle with, "And they lived happily ever after..."

 

[Myles]

I guess we also have to gauge the immense benefits from following your teachings too to make a fair comparison ....

Sorry, but I have no teachings to impart; I am not stupid enough to presume that I can lay down a path to be followed. Gurus take note !

What I can offer is a few reasoned arguments for the consideration of those who have not already commited to some form of religious belief which provides the supporet they need to cope with life.

 

[Myles]

i totally agree with you, many of our desires are sinful and because we refuse to see that and we act on them, we're destroying ourselves, each other, and our planet, and as long as people refuse to see, there will never be an end to it for them. but i see, and i know i'm not the only one, and i want to change.

You are caught in the trap of accepting that you are sinful. Don't accept that you are. I imagine, that like most the rest of us, you are a mixture of good and bad. In other words you are human.

Accusing people of being sinful is a strategy used by those with a religious agenda to sell their wares. It goes like this,

1. You are a wretched sinner......usually dressed up in sophisticated language

2. The punishment for sin is .... the Fiery Lake and any other frighrening stuff you can dream up.

3.But you can be rescued from your predicament by following my instructions because I have a relationship with God ( don't ask me to prove it because all I can do is quote the Bible which I uncritically take to be the word of God )

So, they now have another fish in the net.

Stand up for yourself and be dignified. Tell yourself you are not a sinner bur a human being who has good parts and bad parts. Then join the human club and learn to laugh at the idiots who want to manipulate you, as I imagine they have already done. It requires a bit of effort but IT CAN BE DONE.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Trying to understand the psychological premise of original sin. That being the premise that inspires guilt and the writings of many works such as the bible and other "conscience" orientated literature and movies.


There are many ways of approaching this issue and yet you know ..... all approaches lead to the same thing and are ultimately just "rightway" as each other....just a different path leading to the same conclusion..

To resolve the debate would IMO take many many pages of many many words and desciptions and dismantling of many many pre-conceptions. So steeped our beliefs are in societal conditioning and so cryptic, confused and some times deliberately ambiguous are the messages we seem to tell each other....

We have both material fact and conclusions drawn from those material facts. we have also beliefs based on those material facts as we know them. So in philosophy we have the same debate about subjectivity and objectivity relating to reality and imagination and how "persuasive" our imaginings can be unto ourselves.
Fact is:
Mankind has had a serious history of war amongst ourselves.
Mankind still fails on average to develop significant and enduring relationships with each other.
Individuals live in a state of isolation and conflict with their environment as a rule and not an exception.

If one looks at the self determination paradox; "we can not all do or have the same thing at the same time" even though we may want that thing.

For an example of the paradox:

John wants to use a particular chair at an auditorium to listen to his favourite speaker.
Jim also wants to use that same chair to sit in however because he is a little slower than John [ leg infury from an earlier car accident]
John sees Jim and smiles contentedly at his success at getting to the chair first and Jim swears to himself to try harder to be early next time.

So in this example both persons have an unalienable right to the same chair. Both are born with absolute devine perogative: [ intro concept #1 ]
Assuming that John is not specially priviledged by the auditorium [ reserved seating][discrimination]

John and Jim could be considered to be in a [ friendly? hmmmm ] contest over who has the right to the seat. Obviously it is determined by who is fastest, strongest, smartest, [etc] and circumstances beyond boths control.
Both could be considered as "Gods" in their own right limited by the determination and actions of other individual Gods.

So much so are they limited by other gods[esses] actions that they are merely human men/women fighting over a damn seat in an auditorium.

Proposition:

All self-animated life forms are born with absolute devine perogative or more precisely "absolute free will " however by virtue of being born they are immediately being subjegated to a life of oppression due to the fact that there are many other entities with the same identicle absolute freewill.
Thus every baby is born a "sinner" as their very attempt to live, exist [ even as an innocent baby wanted by their parents] is a act against the freedom of others. [refer to neighbours getting upset because the baby cries at night]

So basically if you start every action with a "please forgive me..." you are attempting to inspire agreement in the form of compassion in your society.

We are all apologists and we are all seeking forgiveness all the time to achieve a certain peace or harmony.

It is impossible to make a decision that does not in some way violate someone elses decision. So this means that we are constantly "sinning" against another "God"

I have always held the view that religion has been not only a tool used to control the masses but a way that humans cryptically attempt to understand their very natures.

The idea of Man born in Gods image, the garden of eden story etc etc are all about becoming aware of our true natures IMO.

Now as to the notion of a montheistic God one can see that if humanity actually learned to work together with out conflict or violation as one we have the abuility to be a culminant human God in this sector of the universe. A concordance of will and freedom....

unlikely hey?

So every time you accidently bump into someone you are confirming that you are a sinner and naturally you seek an apology "oops...excuse me!"

[assuming your of normal or average character disposition]




The perfection in the trade of "absolute freedoms" is the ambition. The more successful you are at trading your absolute devine perogative [ prostitution ] the more successful you are at getting what you want.

e.g. John sells his right to the seat for $10 to Jim.

 

[Myles]

I think you are making too much of wehat I regard as a simple issue. I'm not sure what you mean by a "devine perogative ".

As far as I am concerned we are as we are. i.e., human with strengths and weaknesses. There is no need to appeal to an outside authority; we create our own values.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I think you are making too much of wehat I regard as a simple issue. I'm not sure what you mean by a "devine perogative ".

As far as I am concerned we are as we are. i.e., human with strengths and weaknesses. There is no need to appeal to an outside authority; we create our own values.

I use the word "devine" in the sense that we all have the perfect will to determine our existance and choices we make.

However due to the simple fact that every one can not have the same space, the same thing, even though one may want it there is a serious competition going on for resources.

This competition for resources means that we are constantly violating someone elses "devine" perogative or will [ self determination ]
And as we do this from the moment we are conceived in our mothers womb we are by this very natural fact born into this competitive environment and must by virtue of this fact commit a violation or "sin" against everyone else in this universe just to merely exist.

So therefore the psychological premise for the dev. of ideas and notions such as "original sin" could have had their genesis in this fact thus proving the notion of "freewill" and generating notions of religious idealogue.

By extension it could be stated that it is our freewill that creates oppression of others, because only one person can have absolute freewill..this being theoretically an impossiblilty as all individuals compromise that freedom by virtue of being in existance...

The above does not directly address the thread topic but is part of other works under progress.

However I feel it can address the somewhat cryptical notion of "original sin" ["natural sin"] and why this notion is so vexatious.

If I have "made too much of it" for you I apologise...
edit, just run a spell checker and wow have I git, get, got problems.....

 

[Medicine*Woman]

because you're blind.

*************
M*W: How defensive you are! I must have hit a nerve. Oh well...

Lori, you don't know me, so there is no way you can assume that I am blind just because I don't agree with your beliefs. That doesn't make one blind at all. It just makes them the opposition. There's nothing wrong with opposition. Sometimes it can be very challenging and thought provoking. Sometimes it leads the self-righteous ones down the path of truth and enlightenment.

because they're blind.

*************
M*W: Lori, you and others who hold the same erroneous religious beliefs as you do, think everybody else is blind but them. There is no way you could possibly know these people of opposition well enough to accuse them of being blind. That makes you and those like you blind.

and don't think you're off the hook mw. you may wish you were better than i or anyone else, but you're just as guilty as the rest of us if not more, and i say if not more only because you deny that you're sinful.

*************
M*W: I never was on your's or anybody's "hook." That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Being an atheist doesn't make me feel that I am better than anybody else. That's your delusion because of your beliefs.

Again, you don't know me, so you don't know what my "sins" are. You assume that since I don't believe what you believe, that makes me think that I'm somehow superior to others. You are using false judgments on others. That's not very christian-like!

Further, I have never denied that I was sinful. I just don't have the same understanding of "sin" that you do. I told you what the literal meaning of "sin" was, but this is something you have never learned through your religion. Being "sinful" is relative. I know what the true meaning of "sin" is, and I am no more or less sinful than anyone else, especially the self-righteous ones who think they know the truth. Therefore, you are the blind-sighted one.

yes it is a choice, but back to the topic of this thread, we are born in sin like a birth defect. one that you seem to think you've escaped or overcome, and thank you for illustrating my point in that, as long as people remain blind, this world will remain this horrible. so thanks mw really...no, really.

*************
M*W: Your idea of "sin" is delusional. I think it's a sad thing that you and Adstar believe you are so unworthy because you are so sinful. That's totally ridiculous! We all come into this world innocent. It's sick that's what religion teaches you.

Also, you think this world is so imperfect, have you ever tried to see all the good things and people who are in it? They really are out there, and many of them don't have a hard heart like you do. The evil lies only in your heart and mind ... and you put it there. That's what's wrong with this world.

it is my belief that there is a blood line of christ remaining on this earth. one that would be impossible if he was a mythical character, not to mention my relationship with god as a result of him. i believe that this bloodline and the forthcoming result of it is the secret of the holy grail, and that the result of it will be redemption of sin, in that those born into the new kingdom of christ, will be born through him, and of his blood, which will be, or is perfected, so we will be perfect too.

*************
M*W: Lori, you're a day late and a dollar short. I've read every book I could find on this "bloodline," and yes, I believed it to be true at one time. Now I know that this "bloodline" you speak of, the Merovingians (the vine of Mary), does still exist, but JC and MM were NOT part of it. Everyone living today is of this bloodline. As a matter of fact, everyone living today is a descendant of Charlemagne, so it's quite easy to see where the Merovingians came from. It's no biggie. I suggest you read a few books on the symbolism of the constellations in ancient religions, but let me give you a few right now:

The Sign of Virgo represents Mary. The Sign of Pisces represents Jesus. There is a constellation of a "cup," i.e. the holy grail. I'm sure you've heard about the Knights of the Roundtable (the zodiac). Judas represents the Sign of Scorpio (the betrayer). There is a constellation of an ark (argo). There is a constellation of an altar. Good old satan is represented by the Constellation Serpens who is formed by the heel of Bootes (Adam) and again, Virgo. The dragon that King Arthur (Arcturus) slayed is called Draco. Orion's Belt has three bright stars that represent the good old Magi. It's all mythology, and Lori, it's time to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales.

I can give you a list of books that aims to prove the myths were really true, but that would be a waste of time. The only truth is that all religions were created from watching the night skies where darkness prevailed and was known as "sin."

Know one or nothing like an entity will make you perfect. Only you can do that. You might want to give it a try.

 

[lightgigantic]

Sorry, but I have no teachings to impart;

nice
however not a true statement, since you obviously have no shyness about establishing the truth of the matter ......

I am not stupid enough ..... yada yada yada + 3893 posts.

:shrug:

 

[Myles]

I use the word "devine" in the sense that we all have the perfect will to determine our existance and choices we make.

However due to the simple fact that every one can not have the same space, the same thing, even though one may want it there is a serious competition going on for resources.

This competition for resources means that we are constantly violating someone elses "devine" perogative or will [ self determination ]
And as we do this from the moment we are conceived in our mothers womb we are by this very natural fact born into this competitive environment and must by virtue of this fact commit a violation or "sin" against everyone else in this universe just to merely exist.

So therefore the psychological premise for the dev. of ideas and notions such as "original sin" could have had their genesis in this fact thus proving the notion of "freewill" and generating notions of religious idealogue.

By extension it could be stated that it is our freewill that creates oppression of others, because only one person can have absolute freewill..this being theoretically an impossiblilty as all individuals compromise that freedom by virtue of being in existance...

The above does not directly address the thread topic but is part of other works under progress.

However I feel it can address the somewhat cryptical notion of "original sin" ["natural sin"] and why this notion is so vexatious.

If I have "made too much of it" for you I apologise...
edit, just run a spell checker and wow have I git, get, got problems.....

We, like other animals, are born into a competitive environment but I cannot see what that has to do with the topic of this thread, and how the notion of divinity enters into it.

 

[Myles]

nice
however not a true statement, since you obviously have no shyness about establishing the truth of the matter ......




:shrug:

You are better at shrugging than at making sense. Read my post again. I have nothing to offer other than a few thoughts for CONSIDERSATION by others who are not unreservedly commited to a religious belief. I am not a guru who claims to have answers to everything; I leave that to the gurus.

 

[Quantum Quack]

We, like other animals, are born into a competitive environment but I cannot see what that has to do with the topic of this thread, and how the notion of divinity enters into it.

One of the main arguements for declaring God to be imperfect is the complaint about "original sin" That the Christian Church is condemning all persons to hell if they do not seek redemption from the Christ. That God had created an imperfect being called man. [ thus by default he muct be an imperfect creator]
In my view "God" is a universal concept and the above post was an attempt to describe why it may be possible that this notion of "original sin" was declared historically in the bible in the first place. That psychologically we may very well be sinners against each other by default of absolute prerogative.

The use of the word divine is simply to link it to those religious concepts but mainly to declare that the freewill we all have as perfect and absolute with in all of us humans and it is that absoluteness that causes all the problems we have with violating each others freedom.

If you can not see the relevance then Again I apologise .....
possibly I should have called this thread 15 months ago as :
Why worship a perfect freedom? When that perfect freedom leads to oppression?

By becoming aware of the their freedom [ freewill ] by eating from the tree Adam and Eve automatically had become oppressed as they competed for resources as was their right to do so as per the freewill that they had become aware of.

So in re-reading and reinterpreting this book of the bible with the aid of modern psychological techniques and thinking one can see the historic insight it has to offer.
Thus the posting of this response...a sort of self correction to the original attempt or dare I say "sin"

 

[Myles]

One of the main arguements for declaring God to be imperfect is the complaint about "original sin" That the Christian Church is condemning all persons to hell if they do not seek redemption from the Christ. That God had created an imperfect being called man. [ thus by default he muct be an imperfect creator]
In my view "God" is a universal concept and the above post was an attempt to describe why it may be possible that this notion of "original sin" was declared historically in the bible in the first place. That psychologically we may very well be sinners against each other by default of absolute prerogative.

The use of the word divine is simply to link it to those religious concepts but mainly to declare that the freewill we all have as perfect and absolute with in all of us humans and it is that absoluteness that causes all the problems we have with violating each others freedom.

If you can not see the relevance then Again I apologise .....
possibly I should have called this thread 15 months ago as :
Why worship a perfect freedom? When that perfect freedom leads to oppression?

By becoming aware of the their freedom [ freewill ] by eating from the tree Adam and Eve automatically had become oppressed as they competed for resources as was their right to do so as per the freewill that they had become aware of.

So in re-reading and reinterpreting this book of the bible with the aid of modern psychological techniques and thinking one can see the historic insight it has to offer.
Thus the posting of this response...a sort of self correction to the original attempt or dare I say "sin"

I declare God to be non-existent because of the absence of objective evidence to support the notion of his existence. End of story.