Why we accepted god

[Buffalo Roam]

I retired at 39, and any employment was very much voluntary, usually what ever intrested me, Belief in God is natural, and man has a very dark side to his nature, as proven by atheist govering systems, how many years dose it take to prove these system don't work , mostly because there is no way to implement the perfection in humanity that is needed to make them work properly, so it seem you as a atheist are looking for Heaven, and because of your human nature you are cut off from Pure Atheisim and Atheist heaven because of your human nature, that seem to be simple logic, can you name a athiest socity, and from the examples you name I would assume you mean communist that has ever work and didn't degenerat into Have and Have-Not systems that end up abusing their populations for the needs of the few?

 

[Red Devil]

Jesus was a member of an organisation called The Sons of God and, although they advocated violent overthrow of the occupying force (Romans) he preached pacifism and political overthrow. Needless to say, it never caught on. He later became amended to be THE son of god, which of course, he wasn't.

 

[Confutatis]

There are a tremendous amount of historical records that don't bode well with religion, for the most part.

I'm sorry, I'm not aware of any. If I knew a single historical fact that would prove my religion wrong, I would promptly abandon it. In all sincerity, I don't know what you are talking about. Can you be more specific?

And I'm sure that helping the poor, etc does not require the need to believe in gods.

Of course it doesn't, but that is not what I meant. I was simply refuting your claim that religion makes a person think about the next world and neglect this one.

We would most likely find that there is a proportional amount of non-believers to believers as there are people helping.

If the amount is proportional, and we can certainly grant you that, then you are contradicting yourself, because it would mean there are far more religious people helping others than atheists, simply as a matter of statistical fact.

But this is beside the point. The point is that the notion of someone disregarding this life for thinking too much about the next is fallacious and comes from an ignorance of religion.

Can you honestly say that, being a non-believer, you really understand what religion is, or what it is about?

Who says one is forced to work for 40 years?

Well, you can also beg, borrow, or steal, but that is not a solution to most people. But, again, this is beside the point. The point is that "freedom", whether in capitalist or communist societies, is an illusion. Nobody is free to do what they want, we all live in one form of bondage or another.

 

[fahrenheit 451]

Confutatis: here's another fallacious statement you can, try to refute, however I would say its true, theres are help comimg from both camps, believer or non-believer, but there is a difference, the non-believer will help the staving, hoping that he made a difference, and they survive.
however the believer will help the starving, thinking god will look after them, if they die,at least they will be with god.

 

[Confutatis]

Confutatis: here's another fallacious statement you can, try to refute, however I would say its true, theres are help comimg from both camps, believer or non-believer, but there is a difference, the non-believer will help the staving, hoping that he made a difference, and they survive. however the believer will help the starving, thinking god will look after them, if they die,at least they will be with god.

I would start by saying it's dangerous to claim what's going on in the minds of other people, be they believers or non-believers. I can only know what goes in my mind, and what I know is that when I help people I do that out of compassion, not out of religious belief. When I see someone needing help, the first thing that comes to my mind is not "what does God want me to do here", but "what would I feel if I were in that poor man's situation".

There is an erroneous belief that religion promotes compassion, or claims to do so. That couldn't be further from the truth. Religion is not about compassion anymore than it is about personal hygiene, even though it teaches about both. The really important thing about religion, the thing that makes people accept or reject it, nay, the reason people are willing to kill or die for it, is its cosmic vision, its stories about how the universe came about, what is our place in it, and what fate has in store for us. That is the only thing that really matters, everything else just follows as a consequence.

When it comes to helping people, perhaps the only thing we can safely say about the difference between a religious person and an atheist, is that the atheist sees no cosmic implication of his acts of benevolence. The atheist may feed the hungry and think his action made for a better earth, but he will never think his action made for a better universe. That is, I think, the essential point: the atheist thinks the universe doesn't care whether he is compassionate or not, while the believer feels the eyes of the cosmos watching his every move.

Now if you can understand that difference, then you may get a glimpse of what religion really is about.

 

[(Q)]

I'm sorry, I'm not aware of any. If I knew a single historical fact that would prove my religion wrong, I would promptly abandon it. In all sincerity, I don't know what you are talking about. Can you be more specific?

No problem, what exactly is your religion?

Of course it doesn't, but that is not what I meant. I was simply refuting your claim that religion makes a person think about the next world and neglect this one.

In that I would entirely disagree. If you spend some more time here reading other theists priorities, you'll find that humanity itself barely rates. In fact, many theists here will tell you that to look towards humanity is to look towards evil and that the only reason to live is to prepare for the afterlife.

If the amount is proportional, and we can certainly grant you that, then you are contradicting yourself, because it would mean there are far more religious people helping others than atheists, simply as a matter of statistical fact.

And I would grant you that if indeed the statistics reflected that.

But who exactly are the theists working for, the people they help or are they just trying to help themselves, into heaven? Again, I refer to the fact that theists aren't as interested in humanity as they are in the afterlife. Most missionaries bring bibles, not food, medicine or clothing. That is of course generalizing, as we do see organizations like the Red Cross bringing food and medicine to those less fortunate. But wait a minute, the Red Cross is not an organization based on religion.

But this is beside the point. The point is that the notion of someone disregarding this life for thinking too much about the next is fallacious and comes from an ignorance of religion.

Again, spend some more time here and that will become only too evident.

Can you honestly say that, being a non-believer, you really understand what religion is, or what it is about?

That is exactly my problem, but it is a problem with theists as well, as they all have completely different views on religion, as different as their fingerprints. Of course, I've spent the time reading the same scriptures theists read, so my understanding shouldn't be any less or more than theirs.

Well, you can also beg, borrow, or steal, but that is not a solution to most people. But, again, this is beside the point. The point is that "freedom", whether in capitalist or communist societies, is an illusion. Nobody is free to do what they want, we all live in one form of bondage or another.

I certainly don't see my life that way, nor do I see it in many other friends and acquaintences either. I am free to do what I wish within the confines of my own moral and ethical judgement, and am not in any bondage of any kind that I can see. You'll need to clarify your concept of bondage if we are to take that any further.

 

[Confutatis]

No problem, what exactly is your religion?

My religion does not matter. Any argument that historical or scientific facts imply one or other religion false is meaningless. Religion is not about history or science.

If you spend some more time here reading other theists priorities, you'll find that humanity itself barely rates.

This is funny. Given that this humanity you seem so fond of is mostly religious, often radically so, how much of an appreciation for it do you really have? Do you love humanity so much as to accept their wisdom, their traditions, their hopes, their beliefs?

I'd say you only truly love humanity if you think of them as better than you, not worse. And if you think humanity as a whole is better than your pitiful irrelevant self, then you must accept what they try to teach you. If not, you can claim to be better than humanity, but you cannot claim to love it.

In fact, many theists here will tell you that to look towards humanity is to look towards evil and that the only reason to live is to prepare for the afterlife.

This is totally absurd. You could perhaps say that of people cloistered in monasteries, although even here you would be mistaken, but in any case it can't possibly be true of religious people who have jobs, raise families, take vacations. Where do you get those silly notions?

But who exactly are the theists working for, the people they help or are they just trying to help themselves, into heaven?

You should stop and think about what you are saying, rather than repeating some mindless argument that just happens to be fashionable. If religious people were really concerned about collecting enough frequent traveler points for a free ticket to heaven, this world would be a wonderful place. It would mean, for instance, that no Jew or Christian or Muslim would ever kill, steal, or bear false witness. Can you imagine such a world?

Most missionaries bring bibles, not food, medicine or clothing.

This is like an Iraqi person saying "most Americans bring bombs, not food, medicine, or democracy". Which might be true for them, but it's certainly not true of Americans.

That is of course generalizing...

So stop doing it then.

That is exactly my problem, but it is a problem with theists as well, as they all have completely different views on religion, as different as their fingerprints.

This is just not true. There is certainly disagreement on minor points, but no one questions the core beliefs. For instance, all Christians believe in a good loving God, in the hope of salvation, in the afterlife. They may disagree as to what happens to bread and wine during a Mass but really, what's the problem with that? It is certainly no basis to deny the universality of their core beliefs.

Of course, I've spent the time reading the same scriptures theists read, so my understanding shouldn't be any less or more than theirs.

I don't know how much you understand religion. All I know is that you are saying things that are not true of most religious people, and you should be able to see that for yourself.

I am not in any bondage of any kind that I can see.

Forget the word "bondage", it has connotations beyond what can be reasonably discussed. The point is that freedom is a matter of degree, nobody can have complete freedom to do anything they want, unless they don't want a lot of things. And my personal observation is that most people don't have the freedom to do most things they want. But I do notice that atheists have a tendency to deny the misery of the human condition.

 

[(Q)]

My religion does not matter. Any argument that historical or scientific facts imply one or other religion false is meaningless. Religion is not about history or science.

Are you embarrased to tell me your religion? Is it Christianity? I would agree that religion has nothing to do with history or science, but that is not what many other theists here will agree.

This is funny. Given that this humanity you seem so fond of is mostly religious, often radically so, how much of an appreciation for it do you really have? Do you love humanity so much as to accept their wisdom, their traditions, their hopes, their beliefs?

I love humanity such that it should be what it was meant to be, a society not lead on by the fantasies of religion, but by the physical world around us.

I'd say you only truly love humanity if you think of them as better than you, not worse. And if you think humanity as a whole is better than your pitiful irrelevant self, then you must accept what they try to teach you. If not, you can claim to be better than humanity, but you cannot claim to love it.

This isn't about being better than one another, it has everything to do with erradicating one thing that would only benefit mankind; religion. There may be more things we need to deal with, but the most important is religion.

This is totally absurd. You could perhaps say that of people cloistered in monasteries, although even here you would be mistaken, but in any case it can't possibly be true of religious people who have jobs, raise families, take vacations. Where do you get those silly notions?

Well, that's why I say to spend some time here and find out for yourself. You're new here and are currently rehashing many of the same arguments already refuted.

You should stop and think about what you are saying, rather than repeating some mindless argument that just happens to be fashionable. If religious people were really concerned about collecting enough frequent traveler points for a free ticket to heaven, this world would be a wonderful place. It would mean, for instance, that no Jew or Christian or Muslim would ever kill, steal, or bear false witness. Can you imagine such a world?

Yes, a world without religion. And you appear to be somewhat delusional in what might be considered 'frequent traveler points to heaven' by many theists here. Again, stick around and find out for yourself.

This is like an Iraqi person saying "most Americans bring bombs, not food, medicine, or democracy". Which might be true for them, but it's certainly not true of Americans.

That's the way it is.

This is just not true. There is certainly disagreement on minor points, but no one questions the core beliefs. For instance, all Christians believe in a good loving God, in the hope of salvation, in the afterlife. They may disagree as to what happens to bread and wine during a Mass but really, what's the problem with that? It is certainly no basis to deny the universality of their core beliefs.

Wow, you really are naive. You'd be very surprised as to what other theists think. Read on, Mcduff.

I don't know how much you understand religion. All I know is that you are saying things that are not true of most religious people, and you should be able to see that for yourself.

Everything I glean from religion is from theists, your argument is with them, not me.

Forget the word "bondage", it has connotations beyond what can be reasonably discussed. The point is that freedom is a matter of degree, nobody can have complete freedom to do anything they want, unless they don't want a lot of things. And my personal observation is that most people don't have the freedom to do most things they want. But I do notice that atheists have a tendency to deny the misery of the human condition.

The misery of the human condition is primarily a result of religious thought that has permeated society for centuries. And it certainly is not undeniable. Once religion is eliminated, people will turn to mankind instead of imaginary beings in the sky.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

It is a sad fact of history that God has been, and continues to be recruited to back hatred, coercion, suppression, torture and violence.

However, it seems to be a consequence of the fact that ruthless people will utilise ANY means to gain power. If they took seriously the teachings of figures like Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Lao Tzu, Confucius etc. they would not do the things they do.

In our own time Communism, Nazism and a variety of other repressive political secular (or agressively atheist) belief systems have been at least as ruthless as any theocracy. I think the lesson is that atheism, in rejecting religion is not a road to salvation.

 

[Red Devil]

But at least athiesm, of which I am, carries along the road no religious bias nor beliefs. To govern in athiesm is to govern with open mind.

 

[(Q)]

I think the lesson is that atheism, in rejecting religion is not a road to salvation.

That's where your theist mindset inhibits your ability to think beyond the bible, atheism wants nothing to do with salvation and has everything to do with benefitting mankind.

To hell with salvation!

 

[Red Devil]

In that case I am an enigma as I believe that there is something after death but nothing to do with religion, I think its a dimensional thing to do with the mind/soul. I did at first believe nothing followed but after one or two experiences with info "from beyond" I do believe something is after. I know not what, otherwise I could form a "church" on it and milk the millions that the catholic church does now!!

In gospels not in the bible, Jesus tells his followers that the kingdom of heaven is within each of us, and everywhere around. Look under a stone, it is there, lift up a twig, it is there. He goes on to tell us that there is no building can house the kingdom of heaven.

To my way of interpretation, thats describing something that is quite literally all around us, a dimensional thing. Anyway, its far to complex for me to describe here as I am going to work in about 10 minutes. The bible is a load of crap anyway. Whetever its original purpose, its been amended and deleted and added to since christianity became a force in the world. Embrace buddhism, the only true faith, they do not worship a god!

 

[Godless]

How to spot an idiot:

Neither is capitalism. It astonishes me that a person who has to go through 12 years of compulsory education and some 40 years of forced employment thinks himself free.

an idiot has spoken!

Godless

 

[Red Devil]

Why should the author be an idiot? Just because they express an opinion that differs from another, this is the beauty of debate. Some people forget that. If everyone agreed this would be one boring forum.

 

[Godless]

Without capitalism liberalizing socieity to what it is today, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Europe may have started the industrial revolution, but the idea of "making money" is what made America. Capitalism brought inovations in goods and services to this continent as the world has never seen before, it was profit motive that made it possible to put a light bulb in every home in America. Profit motive also made it possible to have indoor plumbing, computers, and eventually the internet. Not to speak of all the medicines that were created are being created do to "profit motive. It is capitalism that has put society were it is at. Who would rather go back to a system that never made any one live in the conforts of today.

What kind of non-thinking idiot would it take to explain that socialism, nazism, communism & oligarchy is perhaps a better system than capitalism, for our social well being?

Capitalism is freedom, plain and simple. If one can't possibly understand that social system, and then call it slavery, that person is nothing but an uneducated shmuck, that really has no grasp of capitalism.

Godless

 

[Hapsburg]

Nanonetics, that was good, and most likely true. Religion is for the gullible, or the corrupt.

And the desperate and the insane and the drunk. And the irish, which are all five rolled into one.