Why Pain?

[Cyperium]

>[Cyperium] 10-09-05, 11:45 AM
>Why pain? To avoid it.

How is the "having something to avoid" better than a pleasure-only life?

Because it wouldn't feel right to feel pleasure when something bad happened and we wouldn't as happily let go of the burning fork if we felt pleasure holding it. Also pain from burning is a concentrated form of the feeling of heat, heat can be pleasurable while too much isn't, the feeling simply recognises the amount of heat, while we react to it as unpleasant, while we react to it as pleasant when the heat is on normal scale.

>Seriously, what kind of questions is that? Pain is a human feeling, we wouldn't be complete without it.

1) The ("Incomplete" and happy) is better than (complete and unhappy).
2) You would be complete with whatever you get.

No I wouldn't be complete with whatever I get. Maybe I would feel complete, but I really wouldn't, something would be missing. Some things are probably missing for us as it is too. That we can feel pain doesn't mean that we are unhappy.

 

[mustafhakofi]

OK, let's assume for the moment that you are right. Is keeping the title "human" worth keeping the pain (considering the possibility of living in a pleasure-only world as an "incomplete" human by your definition)?

how would you know it was a pleasure only world?
what would be it's defining factor?
what comparison do make to know?
how would you know what is euphoria, every gradient would be the same good, gooder, better, fantastic what would define one from the other. and what would be the point, it would be one gradient only euphoria. how boring, you could never know the define pain of love, you could never know what beauty was could you.

 

[Qorl]

G71, congratulations to you!

This is the best question I ever heard from a human! When I asked God why he changes my mind like you switch channels on TV, his answer was; Someday I will understand! So the answer is; someday you will understand, until that time - suffer! I know it is evil but that's how it is.

Kenny JC
With reading you could not even taste a tiny bit of a sufferings. Example; do you know the flavor of a fruit you never taste it, but just read about it?

Q, Emotions

 

[Cyperium]

correct. like what?
we all have an imagination, every nasty thing you can think of involves pain.

Why pain? You don't think that in infinite possibilities there can be something worse than pain? Maybe not. Then it isn't so bad is it?

 

[water]

G71,

What's better for us? (A) The "freedom to choose" or (B) the best possible future? My answer is B). God (supposedly) could give us the B) but he did not. Why? I would give it to those I love. wouldn't you?

God is greater than we can imagine. God, being benevolent, will give humans the best possible future.
What this best possible future is, however, is up to God the Creator, not the created.

There is an infinite number of ways how things truly are.

Really? Then there is no truth, according to you, and whatever you have said so far is just a lot of hot air. Sorry.

Christian's God obviously has a taste for human suffering.

Do you know this God? Do you know Jehovah?

I don't think so. The best way how to get something done simply depends on agent's power. It would be pretty stupid for God to do things in a similar manner we do it. The fact that Christian's god often demonstrates that stupidity strongly suggests that the whole thing is nothing more than a man made story. The complexity of this world well corresponds to its messed-up-ness so I don't think Christian's God fits the model.

Are you looking for answers, or do you have ulterior motives with this communication that you are making?

>So it is all about FEELING a certain way?

I think so. What else is so important? What else triggers our actions?

What triggers our actions are our intentions, based on our values and preferences.

I don't think we have free will.

This, all in itself, answers your questions in this thread.
If you believe that we have no free wil, then you also believe that we are slaves to our conditions, whatever they are.
Blaming the God for this is just a convenient way to victimize yourself, in order to release yourself from your personal responsibility for striving to maintain mental and emotional states that are conducive to happiness.

But even if we do, we cannot always use it to stop pain.

How can you make assumptions about how it would be to have free will, if you don't believe we have free will?

And even if we could, I would still see a problem with it because it's just a concept which belongs to imperfect worlds = worlds created by imperfect creators.

If you don't believe you have free will, you can't make valid forecasts about how it would be if you would have free will. So your arguments here are pointless.

1) We could live an an environment where nothing could get wrong - that's what I would expect from Christian's God.

On what grounds are you expecting this?

2) If we live in an environment where something can get wrong, we could be getting some sort of neutral "pain" info (eg. location, type & intensity in a numeric representation) + the brain could be wired so that it would take it seriously enough without the actual feeling of pain..

But this is exactly what is happening.

Only that a person who

1. does not believe in God, and
2. believes "I am my body", and
3. believes he has no free will

is attached to the states he is in, he identifies with them, and he thinks they are essential to who he is.
It is the perfect way to set oneself up for suffering and disappointment.

OK, let's assume for the moment that you are right. Is keeping the title "human" worth keeping the pain (considering the possibility of living in a pleasure-only world as an "incomplete" human by your definition)?

What are your motivations for wanting to live in a pleasure-only world?

 

[G71]

>[Cyperium]
>it wouldn't feel right to feel pleasure when something bad happened

Looks like you haven't noticed I keep talking about a world where nothing bad could happen. Supposedly, Christian's God could create it, couldn't he?

>Also pain from burning is a concentrated form of the feeling of heat, heat can be pleasurable while too much isn't, the feeling simply recognises the amount of heat, while we react to it as unpleasant, while we react to it as pleasant when the heat is on normal scale....

You need to distinguish between

A) The activities/inputs initially triggering the chain of reactions leading to particular feelings

and

B) The end-result biochemistry which actually makes feelings

Theoretically, you could look like a brick and still have a much happier life than what you are experiencing when living in a human body. Whatever the A) currently is for you, you don't really need it to get the particular feelings. The B) is what really counts. Our environment and the A) are messed up so we have to deal with lots of uncomfortable feelings. All that should be totally redesigned. Being an extremely happy brick seemingly "disconnects" relationships between creatures but, in fact, we are sort of disconnected already. Each of us is alone with its set of feelings and we don't really do things for each other. I love some of my family members so much that I'm ready to die in order to save their lives. But would I really do it "FOR THEM"? No! I would do it because it feels right to "ME" (=for myself). No matter how big sacrifice people deliberately make "for others", they do it for their own feelings only. It's by design.. Loving someone is sort of illusion. We only love the feeling which goes with being with the "loved" one. Loving someone might be giving us great feelings but if we have an option to press a button on our body and suddenly (safely and long term) feel the same type of pleasure, just 10K times more powerful, we wouldn't have time for the originally "loved" one any more. The impression that we really love others (including a god) is just a potential side effect of loving some of our own feelings.

>>You would be complete with whatever you get.
>No I wouldn't be complete with whatever I get. Maybe I would feel complete, but I really wouldn't, something would be missing. Some things are probably missing for us as it is too.

Your DNA defines the completeness. If pain is prevented on that level, you would be complete without it.

>That we can feel pain doesn't mean that we are unhappy.

That's correct.

>[mustafhakofi]
>how would you know it was a pleasure only world?
>...how would you know what is euphoria,..

I would not need any knowledge. I would just experience the feeling.

>what would be it's defining factor?

Impossibility of reaching a higher level satisfaction.

>what comparison do make to know?

none.

>what would be the point

Pleasure is what we all go for.. Pain is what we are all trying to avoid..

>how boring,

As I mentioned before, you cannot get bored in a pleasure-only world..

> you could never know the define pain of love, you could never know what beauty was could you.

No need for that.. see the "You need to distinguish.. A)..B).." above..

>"Qorl"
>I asked God.....So the answer is; someday you will understand, until that time - suffer!

I cannot wait for that day.. Based on my current knowledge, there is absolutely no excuse for being capable of preventing all that suffering easily and not doing so..

>"water"
>God, being benevolent, will give humans the best possible future.

Why not from the beginning? Why pain now?

>> There is an infinite number of ways how things truly are
> Really? Then there is no truth, according to you, and whatever you have said so far is just a lot of hot air.

It's not.. because we perceive the reality certain way. We can call it a "human view". That's what I'm referring to most of the time. But there definitely are many different ways how to see the "same" things. That's what comes into play when you talking about the true nature of our world.

> Do you know this God? Do you know Jehovah?

Only from what I read and discussed with other people. Most of the people seem to be pretty confused about many things (including basic logic).. God did not bother to talk to me yet and Christians are very often unable to well answer my questions.

> Are you looking for answers, or do you have ulterior motives with this communication that you are making?

I'm looking for answers and I'm ready to change all my views if reasonable.

>What triggers our actions are our intentions, based on our values and preferences.

.. which is based on body-generated feelings..

>>I don't think we have free will
>then you also believe that we are slaves to our conditions, whatever they are.
Blaming the God for this is just a convenient way to victimize yourself, in order to release yourself from your personal responsibility for striving to maintain mental and emotional states that are conducive to happiness.

There were some very tough moments in my life, but overall, my life is much happier than the life of most other people I know. I'm very successful in many areas and lots of people keep telling me they dream about getting where I got. The reason I'm telling you this is that it would make more sense for me to claim that it's all based on how great I'm in using my free will. I have simply no need to victimize myself. I just don't think the free will makes sense. The more we know about the world, the better we can predict the future. All science is based on that. And look where we got thanks to the science. With enough knowledge about the you and the rules this world follows, we would be able to perfectly predict every single detail from your future and there would be nothing you could possibly do differently because of your free will. There is just a single path you have to follow. Whatever you do, you can always theoretically trace the chain of causes back in time beyond the point of your birth.. Where is your freedom of choice? This is actually a different topic..You may want to check the first post in the "Souls?" thread.. Some of the good points are mentioned there.

>If you don't believe you have free will, you can't make valid forecasts about how it would be if you would have free will. So your arguments here are pointless.

Untrue. A valid forecast is well possible.. It just has more to do with luck of a particular individual than with his/her/its free will..

>>We could live an an environment where nothing could get wrong - that's what I would expect from Christian's God.
> On what grounds are you expecting this?

all-good, all-powerful God...

>But this is exactly what is happening.
>Only that a person who ...

I don't think so.. People keep suffering regardless of their believes..

>What are your motivations for wanting to live in a pleasure-only world?

So far, I have not experienced anything better than pleasure so I, as a subject, naturally tend to go for it..

 

[mustafhakofi]

I would not need any knowledge. I would just experience the feeling.

in a pleasure only world you would have no need for interaction with any other person or a god, you would have reached the pinnicle, and would be in a constant case of euphoria, with no need for knowledge, no need for love, no need for companionship, absolutely no need for anything, your all ready at your highest. it's a boring thought.

Impossibility of reaching a higher level satisfaction.

did you mean possiblity, if so, there could be no gradients of pleasure, why would you need to aquire a higher level, would you feel saddened by not reaching a higher level, or envious of someone who had it, "no", so why would you need it.

Pleasure is what we all go for.. Pain is what we are all trying to avoid..

if there was nothing to strive for, we may as well have stayed as one celled animals,it's the ying and yang of life without the ying the yang is worthless, and vice versa, you would be a pleasure only automaton. all the right moves but none of the feelings.

 

[Qorl]

>"Qorl"
>I asked God.....So the answer is; someday you will understand, until that time - suffer!

I cannot wait for that day.. Based on my current knowledge, there is absolutely no excuse for being capable of preventing all that suffering easily and not doing so..

I don't understand either, but I do know that we had to survive and not to be afraid.
Qorl

 

[water]

G71,

Pleasure is what we all go for..

I don't think so. I think we are more after equilibrium, not so much after pleasure itself.

As I mentioned before, you cannot get bored in a pleasure-only world..

Have you tried?

>God, being benevolent, will give humans the best possible future.

Why not from the beginning? Why pain now?

So that you can learn something, grow.

It's not.. because we perceive the reality certain way. We can call it a "human view". That's what I'm referring to most of the time. But there definitely are many different ways how to see the "same" things. That's what comes into play when you talking about the true nature of our world.

Alright. But if you hold the above stance, you can't argue against those who believe God is benevolent -- they just have a different way to see pain.

> Do you know this God? Do you know Jehovah?

Only from what I read and discussed with other people. Most of the people seem to be pretty confused about many things (including basic logic).. God did not bother to talk to me yet and Christians are very often unable to well answer my questions.

So you don't actually know Jehovah, but you are trying to make claims about Him? This is irresponsible of you.

>What triggers our actions are our intentions, based on our values and preferences.

.. which is based on body-generated feelings..

Hardly. Are you polite because of body-generated feelings?

There were some very tough moments in my life, but overall, my life is much happier than the life of most other people I know.

So you think happiness can be measured?

And look where we got thanks to the science.

Where did we get thanks to science?

With enough knowledge about the you and the rules this world follows, we would be able to perfectly predict every single detail from your future and there would be nothing you could possibly do differently because of your free will. There is just a single path you have to follow.

Would is the word, yes.
Utopias aren't helpful.

>If you don't believe you have free will, you can't make valid forecasts about how it would be if you would have free will. So your arguments here are pointless.

Untrue. A valid forecast is well possible.. It just has more to do with luck of a particular individual than with his/her/its free will..

Can luck be validly forecasted??

>>We could live an an environment where nothing could get wrong - that's what I would expect from Christian's God.
> On what grounds are you expecting this?

all-good, all-powerful God...

I think that the only god that fits your demands is a hippy construct of a nice senile grandpa in the sky. Sorry.

>What are your motivations for wanting to live in a pleasure-only world?

So far, I have not experienced anything better than pleasure so I, as a subject, naturally tend to go for it..

Why are you wondering about God?
Are you trying to refute the Christian understanding of God?

 

[Cyperium]

>[Cyperium]
>it wouldn't feel right to feel pleasure when something bad happened

Looks like you haven't noticed I keep talking about a world where nothing bad could happen. Supposedly, Christian's God could create it, couldn't he?

No, I didn't notice you were talking about a world where nothing bad could happen, I suppose then that we wouldn't have pain - naturally, since nothing could cause it.

>Also pain from burning is a concentrated form of the feeling of heat, heat can be pleasurable while too much isn't, the feeling simply recognises the amount of heat, while we react to it as unpleasant, while we react to it as pleasant when the heat is on normal scale....

You need to distinguish between

A) The activities/inputs initially triggering the chain of reactions leading to particular feelings

and

B) The end-result biochemistry which actually makes feelings

But the feelings are there to tell us about the world, 'specially feelings like pain that are very much absolute and corresponds usually without flaws to situations in the outside world (or in the inside). There are pain that's caused psychologically but that's not usual.

You must understand that when pressure is against a part of the body then we feel it in a gradient scale, too much is unpleasant, pain when beaten is just the feeling of too much pressure and the damages it caused. It's only natural, but in a perfect world we would not need to feel pain, or we could easily avoid it.

I mean, if we can feel preasure against the body then the feeling of preasure will cause pain if there is too much of it. Rather, it will be defined as "pain" while in actuality it is the feeling of preasure (allthough extreme).

Survival is crucial and therefor pain is so important, it shows us how much we can take, pain can be avoided by training just like most things though, so you could actually live in a world without pain if you really wanted to.

Theoretically, you could look like a brick and still have a much happier life than what you are experiencing when living in a human body. Whatever the A) currently is for you, you don't really need it to get the particular feelings. The B) is what really counts. Our environment and the A) are messed up so we have to deal with lots of uncomfortable feelings. All that should be totally redesigned. Being an extremely happy brick seemingly "disconnects" relationships between creatures but, in fact, we are sort of disconnected already. Each of us is alone with its set of feelings and we don't really do things for each other. I love some of my family members so much that I'm ready to die in order to save their lives. But would I really do it "FOR THEM"? No! I would do it because it feels right to "ME" (=for myself). No matter how big sacrifice people deliberately make "for others", they do it for their own feelings only. It's by design.. Loving someone is sort of illusion. We only love the feeling which goes with being with the "loved" one. Loving someone might be giving us great feelings but if we have an option to press a button on our body and suddenly (safely and long term) feel the same type of pleasure, just 10K times more powerful, we wouldn't have time for the originally "loved" one any more. The impression that we really love others (including a god) is just a potential side effect of loving some of our own feelings.

This shows how much scientists can destroy of ordinary human experiance, maybe you should start over. Go at it again, find the real reason you do things for those you love. You seem very lost to me, things don't look good from where I stand.

And no, it doesn't matter that everyone else tells you that you are right.

And yes, I've been there to, it leads to despair, cause you have misunderstood the very principles of your life.

>>You would be complete with whatever you get.
>No I wouldn't be complete with whatever I get. Maybe I would feel complete, but I really wouldn't, something would be missing. Some things are probably missing for us as it is too.

Your DNA defines the completeness. If pain is prevented on that level, you would be complete without it.

I don't think so, and DNA don't define completeness...take a look outside, do you really think everyone feels that they are complete? What about those with missing hands?

We are designed to deal with the environment we are in, pain is thus needed and is also needed to prevent harming others, cause we know what it is to be harmed. We would live in a rather twisted world wasn't it for pain.

 

[G71]

in a pleasure only world you would have no need for interaction with any other person or a god, you would have reached the pinnicle, and would be in a constant case of euphoria, with no need for knowledge, no need for love, no need for companionship, absolutely no need for anything, your all ready at your highest. it's a boring thought.

Exciting for me.

did you mean possiblity, if so, there could be no gradients of pleasure, why would you need to aquire a higher level, would you feel saddened by not reaching a higher level, or envious of someone who had it, "no", so why would you need it.

No. I did mean "impossibility". It would just be so great that a better feeling would be impossible.

if there was nothing to strive for, we may as well have stayed as one celled animals,it's the ying and yang of life without the ying the yang is worthless, and vice versa, you would be a pleasure only automaton. all the right moves but none of the feelings.

What's wrong with "pleasure only automaton"? We are IMO automatons already. The "pleasure only" would be the best improvement I can imagine. No need for free will, no choices. Just the mind-blowing pleasure. The ying and yang architecture is IMO incompatible with pleasure-only worlds..

ALL: I'll get to the other posts later.. I got pretty busy in these days..

 

[G71]

water,

>>you cannot get bored in a pleasure-only world.
>Have you tried?

Is "feeling bored" pleasant?

>>>God, being benevolent, will give humans the best possible future.
>>Why not from the beginning? Why pain now?
>So that you can learn something, grow.

So he is torturing us because he likes to see us learning and growing?

>>But there definitely are many different ways how to see the "same" things.
>if you hold the above stance, you can't argue against those who believe God is benevolent -- they just have a different way to see pain.

If there is a single creature which experiences an unpleasant feeling then this world is IMO not designed as well as it could/should have been IF designed by an all-good and all-powerful God.

>So you don't actually know Jehovah, but you are trying to make claims about Him? This is irresponsible of you.

Not knowing all features of a particular theoretical concept doesn't prevent us from seeing critical incompatibilities among the known features.

>Are you polite because of body-generated feelings?

Partly.. DNA, biochemistry and life experience also play its role.. Pills can totally change the way how we behave.. We are robots..

>>There were some very tough moments in my life, but overall, my life is much happier than the life of most other people I know.
>So you think happiness can be measured?

I was talking about comparing subjective experience.. If people get some type of happiness-scale from X (extreme unhappiness) to Y (total happiness) to pick from, they are typically able to say where they roughly are on that scale.. I guess we often don't have to do it to make a pretty good estimate about others, especially when it comes to people we know well. There are people who lived very short and very painful life. Looks like not everyone gets the same chance to enjoy life.. What kind of plan God has for those who are being born with severe birth defects(?).

>Where did we get thanks to science?

We can transplant organs, we can deflect or destroy a dangerous comet, computers can do amazing things, most people think that life is more fun with electronic devices, the average life gets longer and much more.. Generally, science helps us a lot to achieve many of our goals. Science (unlike God) is a reliable source of help when we need it.

>> With enough knowledge...we would be able to perfectly predict.. single path

>Would is the word, yes. Utopias aren't helpful.

Whole science is based on this - the more we know, the better we can predict.

>Can luck be validly forecasted??

Each happy moment is a luck and you can often validly forecast it.

>Why are you wondering about God?
>Are you trying to refute the Christian understanding of God?

Since I moved to the US a few years ago, I'm surrounded by Christians. It has impact on my family. For example, my 4 years old daughter was repeatedly told she is a sinner (which simply means "bad girl" to her) just because she is a human and many more things which I currently consider a nonsense. I'm sorry, it just seems to me that Christians are totally confused about many things. But I understand that there is a theoretical chance I'm the one who is confused.. That's why I'm trying to discuss various God related topics here and elsewhere.

 

[water]

Since I moved to the US a few years ago, I'm surrounded by Christians. It has impact on my family. For example, my 4 years old daughter was repeatedly told she is a sinner (which simply means "bad girl" to her) just because she is a human and many more things which I currently consider a nonsense. I'm sorry, it just seems to me that Christians are totally confused about many things. But I understand that there is a theoretical chance I'm the one who is confused.. That's why I'm trying to discuss various God related topics here and elsewhere.

Then drop the

We are robots..

mode of thinking.



Also, I think you should inform yourself what Christians mean when they say we are sinners.

 

[G71]

Cyperium,

>in a perfect world we would not need to feel pain, or we could easily avoid it.

Why would an all-powerful God create imperfect world? And by perfect, I also mean absolutely safe, without any danger.

>Survival is crucial and therefor pain is so important

We only need the information the pain provides, not the pain itself - and that's important only in such messed up worlds like this one (not in the perfect/safest one). An all-powerful God (assuming he exists) could easily prevent discomfort and danger (for all, an all levels). Isn't it sort of madness to love someone who wants us (and our children) to suffer? What was the purpose of the tree of knowledge? To confront us with the evil he could easily prevent? Or "test of obedience"? If you are all-knowing, testing is meaningless.

>This shows how much scientists can destroy of ordinary human experience, maybe you should start over. Go at it again, find the real reason you do things for those you love. You seem very lost to me.

Maybe you should put more thoughts on it. If the one you love suddenly (and deliberately) starts causing as much pain to you as possible, you would not love him/her/it after some time (even if you loved him/her/it for a long time, your brain would eventually rewire related connections between neurons). Basically, there are some criteria and thresholds for love (otherwise you would always love absolutely everything and everyone the same way). These are YOUR criteria/thresholds/feelings. People love someone today and they do not necessarily love him/her/it tomorrow. We keep evaluating others based on our own preferences. Your own satisfaction always takes the priority. Primarily, subject do things for themselves. It's by design.

>And yes, I've been there to, it leads to despair,

So far, (unlike many believers I know) I had no such problems.

>cause you have misunderstood the very principles of your life.

If possible, please get specific and back it up with some reasoning.

>I don't think so, and DNA don't define completeness...take a look outside, do you really think everyone feels that they are complete? What about those with missing hands?

I guess it all depends on who evaluates the completeness.. It can look very differently from creators vs creation's perspective.

>We are designed to deal with the environment we are in,

Pretty poor design.. All parts of our body could have been designed much better..

> pain is thus needed and is also needed to prevent harming others, cause we know what it is to be harmed.

As I said before, we need the info (in worlds like this one), not the pain itself.

>We would live in a rather twisted world wasn't it for pain.

Let's assume for the moment that heaven exists. Is it a "twisted world" by your definition?

 

[G71]

water,

>Then drop the “We are robots” mode of thinking.

What's the evidence for free will? What makes you think we have it? It would be nice, but wishful thinking is not enough for me.

>Also, I think you should inform yourself what Christians mean when they say we are sinners.

I know what they mean and the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

BTW can you tell me what was the purpose of the tree of knowledge? And the snake? Why would you create an unsafe environment (knowing that it will cause a disaster) for those you love IF you have the power to make it perfectly safe? And didn't God know that neural networks need a pretty good training before behaving as desired?