charles cure,
i was arguing why pain cannot exist while the concept of an omnibenevolent god exists. i wasnt arguing against free will.
freedom to choose has nothing to do with why a god with the power to eradicate suffering would allow it to exist.
Freedom to choose has to do with the way we think about suffering and with how we respond to it. And we do can choose our responses. (Keep tuned in, there's more to say to this.)
I think that only a benevolent God would give humans the freedom to choose.
i think you may be wrong about all christians believing in free will.
I said:
At least a part of Christians claim that humans do have free will, and that they can choose their actions ...
although it pains me to say it, in a way you are right. its like how people are condemned to darkness at night because they understand the concept of daylight. there is an essential duality at work here. if you did not understand pleasure you could not know pain. if you didnt know what the day was you could never have night. if you only ever were exposed to good there could be no evil. that however is not the fault of people themselves. they have within them the capacity to understand these two opposite things and also possess the ability to judge which of the two is preferable. so in the context of your statement people are condemned to suffer because they can understand the opposite of suffering. tough break i guess, but still pretty irrelevant.
Why irrelevant?
Must I be depressed about having cancer?
Is there indeed only one response possible to suffering -- is the only response to suffering, "Now, I hurt and I am depressed about it, and I have no choice but to be depressed about my suffering"?
* * *
G71,
"Prove that suffering is wrong"
If suffering doesn't exist in heaven, can't we assume that there must be something wrong with it?
I would not say there is something "wrong" with suffering. There is often something wrong with the way we treat suffering: we tend to deny it, or we try to escape it. We rarely embrace it and let it be. Note that by this I don't mean we should cause ourselves suffering, I mean that we should not resist it once it happens.
If so, what could be the reason for its existence?
For us to be given the chance to learn the truth, to see things for what they truly are. To learn who we are.
Yes, that's exactly the problem.. Christians are typically lost when it comes to this argument.
Or, the asker doesn't understand his question.
>"if people are given free will, then a benevolent God and the existence of suffering are not mutually exclusive anymore"
This is IMO a separate issue.. But I would be interested to know if you think that suffering is always a punishment for doing something God does not like..
In a way, our negative response to our suffering (for example, when we are depressed about being ill) is a punishment in and of itself.
When we respond negatively to our suffering, then we are responding in ways God (as some Christians understand God) does not like, but I would not consider this God's punishment.
If you think so then what about suffering newborns? BTW note that newborns don't have a well-enough functional memory so they cannot really get the lesson or comprehend what's right/wrong according to someone else's values.. But they definitely can suffer and they often do. For example, consider earthquakes or birth defects as a source of their suffering..
I couldn't say how newborns experience suffering. I can imagine it is possible that they experience it differently than adults. I can rightly predict that little children don't attach so many stygmas, prejudices and preconceptions to their suffering, as adults do; children simply have not yet learned the socially accepted ways of dealing with pain. And that therefore, the children's suffering is far less of a trauma (for them) as the adults' suffering is a trauma (for them).
It is a general observation that children are very resilient, and I think this has a lot to do with the lack of prejudices and preconceptions they have about suffering.
We could fully experience pleasure without knowing anything about suffering. It's just a biochemistry involving serotonin, acetylcholine, noradrenaline, glutamate, enkephalins and endorphins.. If all the right stuff is there, you get the feeling.
Okay. So it is all about FEELING a certain way?
I'm not sure where exactly are you getting at with this topic:
Are you saying that if God were benevolent, then there would be no *causes* of suffering (like wars and illness)?
Or are you saying that if God were benevolent, then we would never *feel* suffering?