Why Jesus?

(for sake of argument, I am going to assume that an historical Jesus DID actually exist for the time being)

Let us continue to assume this

[As he got older, he began to question his religion (just as many, if not most, exceptional people do).
He learned about other religions out there.
He traveled and met people of varying faiths (older and newer than Judaism).
He gained knowledge and acquired wisdom.]

First I have to ask what is your historical reference for this historical basis? We have no evidence that he questioned his reliegion. In fact at the age of 12 he was having discussions and teaching learned rabbis

[With this (at about age 30) he decided that the Jewish people were interpreting the Bible incorrectly.]

He was actually 33 before he started his ministry to the people.

[What he was teaching was not only contradictory to what Jews were taught, it was detrimental to the welfare of the synagogue.
He was telling people that they do not need to go to church!]

There is also no basis for this arguement. "I come not to abolish the law but to fufill the law. Jesus never once contradicted the scripture of judaism. In fact he often quoted from it. What Jesus did contradict was some of the useless traditions. The jews were focussing on the traditions of man and not the message of God given through the prophets.

[Why revere him as a god-man?
He said he was the son of God.
He ALSO said we are ALL the children of God.]

Good argument here is where your argument is flawed. Jesus clained to be the Son of God and yes we are also children of God but there is a big difference. Through his teaching He told us that we are the adopted children of God. While Jesus himself actually claimed to be the Child of God. Huge difference. In science through Biology we know that a true child of someone has their parents genetic makeup. A child is made up of their x and y cells thus recieveing a combination of the parents chareter traits, personality traits, and even flaws. This is quite different from adopted children. Adopted children biologically have nothing the same as their adopted parents. Assume for a second that God is real and that God is perfect, infinite, all powerful, all knowing, and all present. That god is good, loving, caring, and forgiving. Then by reason from the same argument God had a son. This son would have the same make up as His father. Thus being God himself because he is the same as his father. This is where the Trinity comes into action. Although for argument sake let us leave out the third part of the trinity. You have God the father, and God the son, two distinct personalities but yet are the same thing. This is what Jesus was claiming that He was the actual Son of God making Himself God. God the Son. We are Gods children but we are his adopted children. We don't have any thing of his makeup except that we are created in his image. if you assume for this argument that Humans are Created beings.

[He wasn't calling himself God.
He was calling himself human.]

Refer to above argument. He was not calling himself human.

[If he was a physicl incarnate of God, he would have SAID that, not said that he was the SON of God.
If he was beyond normal people, or better, or closer to God, then he would not have referred to all mankind as the children of God.]

Thats just the point He was claiming to be the physical incarnate of God that is why He claimed to be the actual son of God. It was because of Gods message in the scriptures that we are called children of God. The Jews were Gods chosen people. God has adopted us as his children because he loved us and created us. We are apart of his creation at work. Jesus Christ imself said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man can come unto the father but through me." Jesus Christ in this passage is claiming to be incarnate God and mediator for us. Look at the phrasing. I am the way, I am the truth. Jesus is not just claiming to know the truth or know the right way. He is claimin that He himself is the truth and that He himself is the way.
Also read John Chapter One paying special attention to the first few verses and then verse 14 I believe.

:)
 
Do you not realize that this is all fluff? It contains not one single compelling and substantiated statement of fact, and not one cogent argument.
 
[With this (at about age 30) he decided that the Jewish people were interpreting the Bible incorrectly.]

He was actually 33 before he started his ministry to the people.
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I believe he said about age 30, in which case he would be correct.

As for the trinity thing, when he was baptized(if you want another thorn, I can point out that few Christian sects practice baptism by emersion, something specified in the Bible) He was being baptized, the Holy Ghost was in the air above him in the form of a dove, and God was speaking out of heaven. How to be in three places at once? Only one example. Only one of them is God.

Prior to the birth of Jesus the Romans controlled the Mediterranean area. And the Hebrew were under the control of Caesar. Well it was prophesized that one would come to lead them. The Hebrews looked for a king to lead their nation and to return it back to them. There were those that expected the messiah to lead the Jews against the Romans. Jesus proclaimed to be that man but instead of being a great king who would lead the Jews thru war, he instead brought a message of peace and forgiveness.
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Yes, they thought he would save them from the Romans, when he was actually saving them from themselves, and Hell.

Why would God have to send down his son to die by the hands of man in order for him to forgive me my sins?
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The sin thing was actually in Gethsemene. The punishment has to happen. The way it works is that He took that on himself. A normal man couldn't do this(especially in one night, considering that you would be in Hell for eternity), so His Son was the lamb on the alter. Dying on the cross broke the hold of death, allowing us to be ressurected.

Am I making sense?
Do you not realize that this is all fluff? It contains not one single compelling and substantiated statement of fact, and not one cogent argument.
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Definitely an athiest.
 
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Do you not realize that this is all fluff? It contains not one single compelling and substantiated statement of fact, and not one cogent argument.
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Dear Atheist, Do you realize that by even speaking up you are being a self-stultifying. Not only that but because you do not argue against the statements but instead put them down you are commiting the logical fallicy of Ad Hominem. You have yet provided any logical basis to discredit my argument. Just calling it fluff does not work in the scholarly relm. You said there was not one cogent argument well prove it. Point out the logical fallicies please. That way next time I present an argument I can make them more logically sound.
Secondly as too no statement of fact. I have to say this learn Koine Greek, then go and read the bible. Read the passage that I quoted, and you will see that the phrasing used is consitent to the translation that I gave it.
 
Re: Bravo SVRP

Originally posted by heflores
Good for you SVRP. Please don't get to know god then, get busy knowing Jesus instead....I'm sure whoever wrote and translated the bible is absolutely correct and you can place your destiny on it....We all hope King James made it in heaven now for all the modern christians fate relies on his knowledge and morals while he authored the book of your study.
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King James did not author the bible. He translated the bible from the latin to Old English. The bible consists of two testaments the old testament which is written in ancient hebrew and the new testament which was written in ancient koine Greek. A dead language. I am pretty sure King James could not read, write, or speak either one of those. At least we have no record that he could. What he did was the bible had been translated from Greek to Latin so only the catholic hierarchy could read it. King James had the bible translated from Latin to Old English so that everyone could read it. Now yes this translation of the Bible lost a lot and missed some translations of things. But that is going to happen no matter what when you translate from something to something to something. But today is a whole other story. We actually have very old greek manuscripts. We have greek scholars who are able to translate these manuscripts. Thus today we have more reliable translations of the new testament greek bible. Instead of going from greek to latin to english, we can go straight to english from the greek, and even then you can still lose some of the meaning.
 
Originally posted by FrstKnight
Dear Atheist, Do you realize that by even speaking up you are being a self-stultifying.
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Who would have thunk? :rolleyes:

So tell me, what first hand acount of Jesus do you have, and to when do you date it?
 
Re: Re: Why Jesus?

Originally posted by FrstKnight
Through his teaching He told us that we are the adopted children of God. While Jesus himself actually claimed to be the Child of God.
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I have never heard this.
I am not saying that it isn't true (I am fully aware that the fact that I haven't heard this does not mean it isn't true).

However, since I have never heard this, before I could believe it, I will need you to qualify it.

Can you quote some scriptures that reflect this?
How did you come to that conclusion?

Was it John 1?
The Word Made Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. Mt. 3.1 · Mk. 1.4 · Lk. 3.1, 2

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me; for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
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I can definitely see how someone could construe it that way.
But it can also bee seen different ways.

Do you have more than that?

First of all, it was John's view, not Jesus'.
What I see is John waxing admiringly ABOUT Jesus.

He is saying that Jesus is the wise one.
Jesus is the light in a dark world.
Jesus knows that path to the kingdom of God.
And by following Jesus teachings and examples any man can reach the level of enlightenment that Jesus has.
You can BECOME a "Son of God" just like Jesus by following his teachings.

Do you have anything from the bible (Chapter and Verse, please) where Jesus states that he is the biological son of God, and we are not?
Anywhere in the Bible where Jesus says he is in some way above us?
 
One_Raven,

Ephesians 1
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will -- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.


Jesus came to serve us. He put himself below us, and was fully human. He was no better than us, except that his nature did not come between God and himself, since He was also God "by nature".

Our understanding of 'biological' is human, based on scientific observation, and can never be more than that. Jesus was the firstborn of God, as Adam was the firstborn of humans. Adam was born out of nature, Jesus was born out of God's Spirit. Hence the "immaculate conception".

1 Corinthians 15
45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
 
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further study

Dear One Raven.
Before I reply to your questions I ask time for further study. I do not want to argue something blindly. I will get further references and post them here. I have to say that I appreciate your debate style. Discussing statements is more ironing sharpening iron and better for the intelect than throwing around insults.
 
Do you have anything from the bible (Chapter and Verse, please) where Jesus states that he is the biological son of God, and we are not?
Anywhere in the Bible where Jesus says he is in some way above us?
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John 8:51-59
51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.
52" The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, `If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'
53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, `He is our God';
55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

The Jews knew from the statement Jesus made that the implication was He existed before Abraham and was equating Himself with God, a direct reference to Exodus 3: 13-15. They turned around to pick up stones to throw at Him because they considered it blasphemy.

(I prefer the New American Standard Bible because it is easier to read and understand, yet it is still true to the Hebrew and Greek translations.)
:)
 
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