Why isn't God more obvious?

[c20H25N3o]

C20, I won't be mean, but I will state this. I know from reading that you are on your 2nd marriage, while your first wife is still alive. Some consider that at least one case of adultery, and some I think may even consider it living in adultery. As for what you quoted, I don't have a problem with most of it.

But Christianity goes further. You gotta do this and that. Go to church. Be this, do that. So it puts a requirement on your life outside of a general "be good" idea.

As Lori_7's Custom Title rightly declares "Go to church??? I am the church!!!"

We are all temples for God to dwell within us. I know that I am a complete fool on here, but If I am a fool for God's sake that makes everything just fine.
If we live in love, that is God working through us. We are just not very good at being receptive to Him. This is why the name of Jesus is so powerful. The name is like an access code to your inner being. Just saying the name is enough to allow the Holy Spirit to do it's work of renewal. It isn't just a name from a book, it is power. But the power isn't how you would think it. It is not about being the greatest. It is about being the least. There will be a time when you will not need to call upon the name to know God because you are a temple just as Jesus was a temple. It is God who must rule in that temple. It is His house. This is why Jesus is not ashamed to call us 'brothers'. God does not want to lord it over us but while we continue to go our own way and ignore Him, He has a choice, either show anger or mercy and His mercy is greater than His anger. We must be born again. Born of the Holy Spirit.
Look, I am a programmer, a father of four and a husband to a wonderful wife. I earn a good wage, receive no benefits and do my damned best. I'm just like you. I dont go to church, I smoke a bit of weed, I have a laugh BUT I do not ignore God. I understand His grace to me as a son by His adoption. I expect eternal life. That is true hope. I expect it. I sense the Holy Spirit at work in me all the time. It has been some 14 years since I was born again and I still dont feel ready for solid food. I just keep drinking in the spiritual milk that comes to me freely. If I ever feel thirsty, I walk right up to the throne of God and say "Come on m8, give me a break here, I've been working and working and joy has left me. You can help with that." and He is ALWAYS faithful to me. Faith is just about being bold with your requests from God. He loves you to be bold with Him. When you are you totally fulfill the first commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". This is why Jesus said "Ask and you will receive". Jesus wasn't lying, he was trying to help us to not be afraid of death because He Himself would overcome it and taste it for us that we might not have to. Love never fails. God is love.
Try not to stereotype the Christian. I know its hard, I have been the worse trust me, ridiculing every Christian under the sun. I was the devout atheist. Then God came and literally knocked me off my feet. The real God, The Most High God, The One who made the heavens and the earth. He calls me 'son'. I cannot begin to tell you what that means in my inner being. I hope you seek Him.

peace

c20

 

[Nasor]

It would be "easy" for god to show miracles to the whole world and take us back to paradise but then we wouldn't have come there by free will, we would be like animals and we would want to sin again because we didn't get to know god by our free will.

Because then people would have no choice whether to believe in Him or not -- they would find it a matter of course to believe in God, the same as they find it a matter of course to think that humans have two legs or that fish swim.

I don’t buy this argument. God presenting us with unambiguous evidence of his existence would not in any way infringe on our free will – it would simply allow us to make a rational, informed decision. We would still have free will to reject God if we wanted to.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Nasor: I don’t buy this argument. God presenting us with unambiguous evidence of his existence would not in any way infringe on our free will – it would simply allow us to make a rational, informed decision. We would still have free will to reject God if we wanted to.
*************
M*W: Most of the members on sciforums Religion Forum are asserting their free will to believe or not to believe in a god. There has been a lot of condemning going on by c20 to the non-christian members. James R--I suggest his posts be dumped in the Cesspool.

 

[what768]

Yes, if there's an omnipotent God, it would be easy for him to show us miracles to convince the whole world that there's a powerful existent. But that wouldn't negate our free will, technically. We could still choose to reject this God, couldn't we? We could even choose to believe it's not God, but an evil force or an alien. And Christians believe people today have free will, but their idea of free will is "submit or be cast into the lake of fire". So it's not very different from God letting everyone be absolutely sure of his existence, or not.

We should go to God by our own free will, not like the animals and plants, which he carries and takes care of. He could of course make us like the animals again, but he has already made animals which obey him, on animal level. We created man, when we were in heaven with god, and now we are on earth.

You might not have noticed, but "God" has shown signs, every day. But these "signs" have become so "natural" that people don't think about them anymore and see them as an "every day thing". For have you ever seen a man who wonders how he lifts his hand, and how his legs carry him? This is the same kind of "miracles" as when Moses divided the sea, and when Jesus raised the dead. There is nothing "supernatural" about them. Whenever people see something cool they haven't seen and understood, they shout: "A miracle! A work of God!" They don't know that these also are but natural laws, just that they have not seen them or understood them. It is all a "work of god", the whole existence. There can't be anything unnatural in a "natural" world. If god would have "written in the sky" every day, that would also be just "a natural law."

Humans only know a little about the powers that work in the laws of nature. Those that they have met in the every day life, they have already got used to and call them "natural laws". And because they have given them a name, they think they also "know" the real meaning behind them. For the son of man does not understand the attraction of magnets, or why a plant grows from a seed, or what fertilization is, or means. They don't know why living things grow, and then stops growing, and then after a time the regression starts.

Those who believe in god only in a fear of punishment, or in a hope of reward are not his followers. But by "believing", they might learn the joy of following god's law. Every human knows in his heart if he is worthy the kingdom of heaven. Just ask yourself.

And if there IS an omnipotent deity, who is loving, why wouldn't he make it all clear? Why would he REQUIRE faith in something uncertain, for us to live our lives a certain way, or else get the lake of fire as payment if we don't?

God has made everything clear for the one who listens. But man has free will and he is ignorant to the truth. Why would god kill us if we jump off a cliff? Because it's his law, a "natural law." Just as there are physical laws, in the same way there are spiritual laws, inside ourselves. If we do something evil, the "higher self" ("god") punishes us, and he does not forget! Let us not forget that it is "Me" who takes every step in my life, and there is a reason, if I "by mistake", take one wrong step.

It will be uncertain for everyone, because there's no absolute proof that even if a deity wrote in the sky 1000 foot tall letters a different Bible verse every night, it COULD be from a force besides God, couldn't it?

How could it be a force besides God? Isn't he the only one, the one who lives in everything and gives them life? Everything is a force of God!

If it's impossible for an omnipotent God to make it all clear to us, then he's not really omnipotent, is he?

You're right, but he's not trying either.

So it boils down to faith. A loving God requires this of us? Very unfair in my opinion. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

It boils down to having faith in oneself, then we can believe in god. Only a god can understand god. God does not want people to follow things that they don't agree with! Believing in oneself is more important than believing in god because people don't know god. When they know god, their will, will be the same as the will of god. God wants us to be "good." He wants us to be ourselves and find our own truth. All ways lead to the same truth - self knowledge.

Peace be with you.

 

[anonymous2]

You might not have noticed, but "God" has shown signs, every day. But these "signs" have become so "natural" that people don't think about them anymore and see them as an "every day thing". For have you ever seen a man who wonders how he lifts his hand, and how his legs carry him? This is the same kind of "miracles" as when Moses divided the sea, and when Jesus raised the dead. There is nothing "supernatural" about them. Whenever people see something cool they haven't seen and understood, they shout: "A miracle! A work of God!" They don't know that these also are but natural laws, just that they have not seen them or understood them. It is all a "work of god", the whole existence. There can't be anything unnatural in a "natural" world. If god would have "written in the sky" every day, that would also be just "a natural law."

But this is your viewpoint. You believe these things are "natural" things are "signs", but why? Why couldn't they be exactly what they appear to be, normal, every day occurrences of nature?

Saying something is unknown or mysterious to us doesn't necesarily mean it's miraculous. It could simply mean that we lack the knowledge or even the ability to understand it.

So it still boils down to faith. And not just faith that there is a God. Faith in the Christian God. I don't have a problem with people believing there's a God. But Christianity says you have to believe in its God, doesn't it?

How could it be a force besides God? Isn't he the only one, the one who lives in everything and gives them life? Everything is a force of God!

Remember, in Christianity there are powerful forces besides God. He may have created these forces, but that doesn't negate that they do things contrary to his will at times, does it? Or are you saying that all the evil beings in Christian theology submit to God's will at all times? If they do, then you're making God responsible for tempting Eve. Revelation says the beast which was slain was resurrected. The anti-Christ will have "all power" to work "lying wonders" which would, if possible, deceive even the elect. Some believe that Satan is the "god of this world". If there were huge, flashing Bible verses every night in the sky, what objective reason do you have for believing they're from the Christian God, and not another source? Maybe they would be a massive destraction by Satan. Imagine the catastrophe which would happen if all of a sudden "in your face" readible, flashing Bible verses came up in the night, say, after dusk? I think there would be many heart attacks from seeing such a thing. Crashes. Etc. It'd take some time to get used to it. Maybe they'd be from Satan to deceive the righteous from living by faith and not by sight. Maybe they'd be from an evil force of another religion who wanted to deceive people. So it would still boil down to faith.

Your own religion says there are very powerful forces besides God. And aliens could exist.

 

[what768]

Saying something is unknown or mysterious to us doesn't necesarily mean it's miraculous.

I said: "Whenever people see something cool they haven't seen and understood, they shout: "A miracle! A work of God!" They don't know that these also are but natural laws, just that they have not seen them and understood them.

Remember that there is an origin for the universe and every law. This origin we call God.

But Christianity says you have to believe in its God, doesn't it?

There were only one teaching taught by the sons of god, everywhere in the world, but people have changed this wisdom to several "religions", "beliefs" according to culture and the body's material properties. God is a natural thing in life, and he is the one that they talk about in every single religion.

You can say that there is a god and you can say that there is no god, there are many ways to explain the truth. But in truth, everything melts together, the atheistic thinking, islamic, hinduistic, scientific, whatever - everything; and they don't exist anymore.

He may have created these forces, but that doesn't negate that they do things contrary to his will at times, does it?

These "forces" don't have any free will, do they? If they don't have free will, they can't go against god's will.

Or are you saying that all the evil beings in Christian theology submit to God's will at all times?

What evil beings do you mean? "Satan" is but the material law which man has awakened with His Life, when he obeyed the law of matter. It is necessary that satan exists, otherwise man can't Avoid evil.

If there were 1000 feet tall flashing Bible verses every night in the sky, what objective reason do you have for believing they're from the Christian God, and not another source?

No, I don't believe in any "Christian God" as you see it. I believe in all religions, so I believe in none of them, I don't believe in your "gods". I can talk for every religion, for every god, but people have defiled the name of god here in the western world. God has no religion.

Your own religion says there are very powerful forces besides God. And aliens could exist.

What is my religion? And yes, "aliens" could exist. So? :bugeye:

 

[anonymous2]

What is my religion? And yes, "aliens" could exist. So? :bugeye:

I assumed it was Christian. I am guessing I was wrong. Concerning my aliens comment, if they exist, they could have the power to flash huge Bible verses in the sky. That was my point. If they exist, they could have awesome power.

 

[c20H25N3o]

It wouldnt matter how powerful the alien was, the law of "Thou shalt not kill" would still apply. They would just be living beings like us. Not permitted to kill. Which should invoke a spirit of "I do not kill because it is not good to kill". Why does this law exist?
Because no one likes it done to them. Because we love eachother as ourselves. We are the fulfillment of the law. But do not forget this, the very first commandment because it is wisdom to you, the Most High wisdom that you may not attain elsewhere "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"
Enter the Kingdom of Heaven as a child. Go into your closet and pray to the God Most High, creator of the heavens and the earth. It is written that God is love, and you sure as hell didn't create yourself. You started as seed. :m:

peace to you

c20

 

[anonymous2]

It is written that God is love, and you sure as hell didn't create yourself.

I'm not claiming I did. We see what we describe as causes and effects in daily life, but the "source" of the universe is not really known. And if the universe's creation and the earth's formation is known according to modern science, it does not seem to mesh well with the Biblical description of creation and its genealogies which do not really lend itself to the idea that humans have been on the earth more than, say, 10000 years or so, in my opinion. Look at what the Christian theory that the earth was created on some date in 4004 BCE or whatever Archbishop Ussher wrote. I don't know. Big bang? Infinite big bangs? Or whatever theory someone comes up with. And if God created the big bang, I would find a more modern religion more reasonable than Christianity on that topic, which did NOT think the universe was 13.5 billion years old or whatever current "science" says.

 

[what768]

I assumed it was Christian. I am guessing I was wrong. Concerning my aliens comment, if they exist, they could have the power to flash huge Bible verses in the sky. That was my point. If they exist, they could have awesome power.

Yeah, they could have awesome power but we have as great power as they, because "god" is within everything. Even "aliens" are "humans" because I assume they are like us: they have free will and thinking.

 

[Nasor]

We should go to God by our own free will, not like the animals and plants, which he carries and takes care of. He could of course make us like the animals again, but he has already made animals which obey him, on animal level. We created man, when we were in heaven with god, and now we are on earth.

Please explain how God would be making us ‘like animals’ if he were to provide more clear evidence that he exists.

You keep invoking this ‘free will’ argument, but I don’t see how’s it’s relevant. I believe having ‘free will’ means that you are able to freely choose your own course of action based on the conscious, rational decisions that you have made. God providing demonstrations of his existence wouldn’t in any way limit that – people would still be perfectly free to reject God if they wanted to.

 

[c20H25N3o]

... but the "source" of the universe is not really known.

The above statement is not true, for it is written "In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth."

It is the only explanation. You have no other.

God said "Let there be light" and there was light, and God saw that it was good.

I think we can kind of get the idea of who God is right there don't you? You dont see love there? Why would God give a toss if it was good or not? Err duh!! Because it was for you! The child he made. You are a child aren't you? A child of the Light?

peace

c20

 

[anonymous2]

The above statement is not true, for it is written "In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth."

It is the only explanation. You have no other.

How do you know what I have or haven't? I can simply say that the "source" of the universe is unknown. Just like it's unknown, to you, how an infinite deity could possibly exist. How can it exist? You can't measure it. You can't explain what mechanism allows an infinite deity to exist, because it's not based on mechanism. It's based on a theory you call "spirit". You call it spirit, I simply say it's unknown or perhaps unknowable.

God said "Let there be light" and there was light, and God saw that it was good.

I think we can kind of get the idea of who God is right there don't you? You dont see love there? Why would God give a toss if it was good or not? Err duh!! Because it was for you! The child he made. You are a child aren't you? A child of the Light?

peace

c20

If all Christianity was about, is "For God so loved the world", and I can just believe it and live my life how I wish, and not be concerned about others going to hell, not be concerned that there is a hell, not be concerned about what to think about "apparent" contradictions in the Bible, not be concerned about having to do this and that, be this and that, then what the hey? But that is NOT Christianity. So therefore I don't see it as "love", but as "bait and switch". Get those people into the church with the "God so loved the world", but when they find out that Christianity is about more than that, and has a dark side, it becomes a different story.

You believe the Genesis story. Why not believe the Shinto story of creation? Or any of the others? You have chosen your story.

 

[c20H25N3o]

You do not see the spirit behind the language of the word of God. If the spirit speaks of God's love for me then it does not matter the source for the spirit is the source. His words are like running rivers of life to me. The source will always be the same. The source of love will always be with God. The source of His love is the Lamb of God, His Son. It is through His Son that we have come.

It was the love between Father God and His Lamb that caused them to say the following words ...

1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
1:27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

In the image of God. Do you not see the glory God planned for man? To be like Him. In the image of God Himself? Given his power, how can you not accept the blood of His Lamb as a sealed promise of your salvation? You do not see the earth in submission to you, but you ought to. And yet you still say you havn't sinned. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory that God intended. If you say you havn't then you lie. You are not like God now, with everything in submission to you. But in faith I tell you all things are possible for you, not for man, but for God in man. For it is in your body, His temple that He choses to dwell. Not in a building made of stone and wood. This does not please the Living God. He wants to live in your heart, that He may rule in His Kingdom from there. Behold! The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand! Repent and believe! Those who do will eat from the Tree of Life. This is God's promise. His New Covenant with man.

peace

c20

 

[anonymous2]

And yet you still say you havn't sinned. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory that God intended. If you say you havn't then you lie. You are not like God now, with everything in submission to you. But in faith I tell you all things are possible for you, not for man, but for God in man. For it is in your body, His temple that He choses to dwell. Not in a building made of stone and wood. This does not please the Living God. He wants to live in your heart, that He may rule in His Kingdom from there. Behold! The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand! Repent and believe! Those who do will eat from the Tree of Life. This is God's promise. His New Covenant with man.

When have I EVER said on these boards that I've never "sinned"? I freely admit that if the Christian God exists, I'm a sinner. Most definitely. C20, "The Kingdom of Heaven" has been "at hand" for almost 2000 years. You can believe it's at hand, you can believe Jesus is coming back. But that's your belief. If you have read my posts, my problem is not admitting that I'm a "sinner", although I find that word offensive, I'd rather just simply say "I've done things wrong in my life". Can I say that? Is that basically equivalent or do I have to say in bold that I'm a sinner?

 

[c20H25N3o]

When have I EVER said on these boards that I've never "sinned"? I freely admit that if the Christian God exists, I'm a sinner. Most definitely. C20, "The Kingdom of Heaven" has been "at hand" for almost 2000 years. You can believe it's at hand, you can believe Jesus is coming back. But that's your belief. If you have read my posts, my problem is not admitting that I'm a "sinner", although I find that word offensive, I'd rather just simply say "I've done things wrong in my life". Can I say that? Is that basically equivalent or do I have to say in bold that I'm a sinner?

Friend,

I am not trying to frighten you. We are all sinners. It is not our fault. This is the way we were born. It was never supposed to be this way. The seed of man was corrupt through man's choice. Man became self aware hence the reference to shame in the Garden of Eden (Paradise in it's truest sense). Man's shame was that he now knew he was naked. He felt exposed. His trust that no one would laugh at him vanished and he covered himself and hid. If man had not been deceived by one who set out to hurt God (and therefore man) then eternal life in Paradise would have been the lot for all offspring. But woman was tricked. God had said "You must not touch the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" because He knew that we would die. In order to be truly free as created living beings as opposed to the Creator who is everlasting and to be eternally praised, God made that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God does know every path. Every root. And he gave us the choice to either obey His command or go our own way. We went our own way and therefore switched off His command. His command is Life to us. This is why we decay. But, God so loved us that He decided to send His own Son to be made flesh for it is in the flesh we have sinned. God is not a coward. He was not going to let us die without hope. It is true after all that He made us. He is responsible for us as any good father. Jesus came to put sin to death once and for all, to turn off the "Seek your own way" command which was the path that was chosen through the seed of Adam. But in Christ Jesus we are born again through the line of David. Accepting Jesus is exactly the same as switching the God command back on again. And in Him we may never perish for He is raised imperishable. Through the line of Adam came sin and death, Through Jesus we have life.
God doesn't want any false humility from you. He just says "Believe in me and be saved". God is invisible now that Jesus has ascended, but He pours out His Holy Spirit on believers and the Sprit of God begin's the renewal of the mind, so that your mind is like that of Christ. Love never fails. We may live forever in Him. We are ordained to be sons of God, sons of the Most High God, Creator of the heavens and the earth.
Just as a seed is sown into the ground in its little perishable body, so must you be. The seed perishes but then its new body is formed. It is then raised to it's glorious body. It is like this with us then. What is perishable must put on the imperishable, as it is written.

peace

c20

 

[Cris]

C20,

If the spirit speaks of God's love for me then it does not matter the source for the spirit is the source. His words are like running rivers of life to me. The source will always be the same. The source of love will always be with God. The source of His love is the Lamb of God, His Son. It is through His Son that we have come.

Or more realistically merely your wishful imagination.

It was the love between Father God and His Lamb that caused them to say the following words ...

1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
1:27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Well no. These are ideas written by people before anyone knew that life is the result of evolutionary processes

In the image of God. Do you not see the glory God planned for man? To be like Him. In the image of God Himself?

Or rather the arrogance of Christianity that considers that man is somehow significant in a somewhat vast universe.

Given his power, how can you not accept the blood of His Lamb as a sealed promise of your salvation?

What power? The rest is just a myth.

You do not see the earth in submission to you, but you ought to.

Very curious statement.

And yet you still say you havn't sinned.

It is not possible to disobey something that doesn’t exist. So sinning is impossible.

We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory that God intended.

Such is the demoralising and defeatist attitudes of Christianity.

But in faith I tell you all things are possible for you, not for man, but for God in man.

There is little to no value in depending on faith for anything – the practice of believing the baseless.

For it is in your body, His temple that He choses to dwell.

Sounds very poetic but otherwise quite meaningless.

This does not please the Living God.

For countless thousands of years no one has yet shown that gods of any type have ever, do, or could ever exist. Living God? Dream on kiddo.

He wants to live in your heart, that He may rule in His Kingdom from there.

Just another dictator huh! Doesn’t seem very attractive.

Behold! The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand! Repent and believe! Those who do will eat from the Tree of Life. This is God's promise. His New Covenant with man.

And it makes a wonderful mythical fantasy story, just like The Lord of the Rings.