Why isn't God more obvious?

Nasor

Valued Senior Member
God (the Christian one) presumably wants everyone to worship him, yet many people (atheists or people who worship a different god) don’t. Why doesn’t god make it a little more obvious that he’s around? If god were to do something like, say, write a different bible verse in 1000-foot high flaming letters in the sky every night, there would probably be nearly zero atheists or heathens. Pretty much any atheist, Hindu, etc. would take one look at the giant, utterly miraculous and inexplicable flaming bible verse and say “Woops. I was wrong. Time to start going to church and stop sinning.”

So…since God has an such an easy way to win converts, why doesn’t he do it?
 
Because "he" does not exist. Answer me this: how can someone think without his or her brain? Your consciousness depends on the physical, so how cold there be anything after death?
 
It would be "easy" for god to show miracles to the whole world and take us back to paradise but then we wouldn't have come there by free will, we would be like animals and we would want to sin again because we didn't get to know god by our free will. God respects our free will, that's what you do for someone you love. God didn't give free will for the animals, so he takes care of them, but to us he gave free will. The meaning of life is to consciously learn to know god and once again be like the stones, like the trees which never sin.
 
what768 said:
It would be "easy" for god to show miracles to the whole world and take us back to paradise but then we wouldn't have come there by free will, we would be like animals and we would want to sin again because we didn't get to know god by our free will. God respects our free will, that's what you do for someone you love. God didn't give free will for the animals, so he takes care of them, but to us he gave free will. The meaning of life is to consciously learn to know god and once again be like the stones, like the trees which never sin.

Your gift of knowledge blows me away. I remember an advert for some insurance thing or other and in it was a woman standing in a field next to a tree and she said "I want to be a tree"

Now of course she didnt want to be a tree, but she wanted to be blameless like a tree. She had a desire to be blameless.

peace

c20
 
God must hate people who aren't mindlessly gullible.
But why? why people who aren't mindlessly gullible and not, say, redheads?
 
Dr Lou Natic said:
God must hate people who aren't mindlessly gullible.
But why? why people who aren't mindlessly gullible and not, say, redheads?

Why would God want to hate anyone? If God we are going to accept that God is real then surely we should summise that He is a being like us. Just like us except He made us. Now if He made us, why would He hate the work of His own hands? Surely He would just want us to get to know Him like a Father. Bit like the story of Pinnochio and Geppeto. Geppeto just wanted a 'real' boy'. Can we not say that maybe He does love us after all and we have just missed that? Whether we are clever, gullible, redhead, blond head, fat, thin etc etc, why would we assume that God didn't love us?

Thanks

c20
 
But you want me to say "God did not have the right to do those things, therefore we shouldn't trust Him or say the Bible must be a lie"
But if God is then who would we be, mere mortals that we are, to question God's judgement? Having the correct attititude towards God produces humility in man. Being arrogant about God causes arrogance and all kinds of trouble in man.
We become arrogant when we say "We know best. God is either a liar or a murderer. So there.". This attitude is what makes our hearts hard towards God. God is Sovereign and very very very very very very very powerful. It is not wisdom to challenge His actions. But this is where the atheist and the theist are divided primarily.
The theist accepts that he is mortal but leans to God for support. The atheist is a strong man who needs no one. It doesn't really matter which you are. You are what you are. Atheists will talk of atheism and theists will talk of God. It makes interesting reading all round. No one should feel condemned by mere words on an internet forum.

peace

c20
 
Nasor said:
So…since God has an such an easy way to win converts, why doesn’t he do it?

Because then people would have no choice whether to believe in Him or not -- they would find it a matter of course to believe in God, the same as they find it a matter of course to think that humans have two legs or that fish swim.

If faith is to have any purpose or meaning, it has to take some effort.
If God would be obvious, as in (the way you put it) writing great letters on the night sky, then faith in such a God would take no conscious effort, no deciding, it would be a matter of course -- and as such taken for granted and allowing people to numb down and be mindless, heartless robots, never really having to decide or ponder about anything.

We could say that the way it is, God wants us to be alert and aware, consciously making our decisions, even the hardest ones.

Surely, we would like to walk the path of least resistence and never be burdened with the heavy load of making decisions for ourselves -- but that way, we would also lose our freedom.

Freedom comes with thinking and deciding for yourself.
However, thinking and deciding can sometimes be a burden -- but that's how it is, being free.
 
but again where is the choice/free will.

The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?. Free Will as defined by the Christians is therefore quite completely impossible by their definition of their god?. Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive.
with thanks to mustafhakofi.
 
audible said:
but again where is the choice/free will.

The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?. Free Will as defined by the Christians is therefore quite completely impossible by their definition of their god?. Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive.
with thanks to mustafhakofi.

Cos He gave man a way out silly! And it was a narrow crack to squeeze through I grant you BUT through that crack we can see a most powerful light.
God wanted us to know Him. That's why He sent His own Son. He thought that giving us His most precious thing would be enough for us. It is for me. I am terribly, terribly humbled by it. Now you want 100ft high neon letters in the sky, but what about a WHOLE BOOK that He wrote telling you all about HIM. I'd rather have a book to be honest. If there was 100ft high letters which said "I AM THAT I AM" you would still struggle. You would blame it on aliens.

peace

c20
 
Audible said:
what free will, what768. read this thread by mustafhakofi, a question about free will.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40065

People think that the body and "I" are the same thing because they have crucified themselves (the divine Self, Jesus) to the matter. This also makes them "think", and have free will. In reality, in the eyes of the lord, there is no free will. Just as nature doesn't know that we "have" free will and its natural laws makes us suffer. God sees things from a universal point of view. He expresses himself through everything, in the best way through a human being.

We should learn from our suffering, it can be of great use that way. Things are what we think of them. No power is evil just like that, it depends on how we use it. Jesus said: "He who wants to follow me must forget himself, take his cross every day and come with me."

Man's nature is to seek the good things and avoid the bad. God however, makes no difference between the good and the bad, and so man should not make difference between them either. There must be balance, the one who seeks the good things must suffer, the one who seeks the bad things must become happy. It is an endless circle of life and death, but if we make no difference between anything, we are free. The most important thing is to forget the ego.

Suffering has a meaning, it shows that something is not in balance. God made the natural laws for everyone, not just for humans. He had to make the universe this way, he had no choice! This was the best way to make a world with uncountable living and unliving things.
 
Nasor said:
If god were to do something like, say, write a different bible verse in 1000-foot high flaming letters in the sky every night, there would probably be nearly zero atheists or heathens.

Well, in that case, these flaming letters will be part of Nature to people in this world if this has occured since the first day of creation. Their "Science" will have an explanation for it.

Some argue that the existence of the solar system alone is a proof of an intelligent creator. I have heard that story before:

Sir Isaac had an accomplished artisan fashion for him a small scale model of our solar system which was to be put in a room in Newton's home when completed. The assignment was finished and installed on a large table. The workman had done a very commendable job, simulating not only the various sizes of the planets and their relative proximities, but also so constructing the model that everything rotated and orbited when a crank was turned. It was an interesting, even fascinating work, as you can image, particularly to anyone schooled in the sciences.

A scientist friend of Newton's came by for a visit. Seeing the model, he was naturally intrigued, and proceeded to examine it with undisguised admiration for the high quality of the workmanship.

"Oh My! What an exquisite thing this is!" Newton's friend exclaimed. "Who made it?"

Paying little attention to him, Sir Isaac answered, "Nobody."

Stopping his inspection, the visitor turned and said, "Oh? Evidently you did not understand my question. I asked who made this?"

Newton, enjoying himself immensely no doubt, replied in a still more serious tone, "Nobody. What you see just happened to assume the form it now has."

"You must think I am a fool!" the visitor retorted heatedly, "Of course somebody made it, and he is a genius, and I would like to know who he is."

Newton then spoke to his friend in a polite yet firm way: "This thing is but a puny imitation of a much grander system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a designer and maker; yet you profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?

Taken from http://home.bluemarble.net/~heartcom/sirisaacssolarsystem.html

The story seems plausible to indicate there is an intelligent creator, but not necessary God.
 
Why would God want to hate anyone? If God we are going to accept that God is real then surely we should summise that He is a being like us. Just like us except He made us. Now if He made us, why would He hate the work of His own hands? Surely He would just want us to get to know Him like a Father.

The answer is easy. I am a 'creator' myself, and made a robot to serve me. I have no reason to 'love' it at all, it's my servant - created to do what I want it to do. Love is really not an issue.

One day, instead of cleaning the carpet, my robot killed my dog. This was a fault of the creator, (me). I had programmed it wrong. So, I drowned that robot and tried again. To this date I haven't managed to programme a properly functioning robot.

The amusing thing is that when I oil it, or tighten it's nuts (ummm), or replace some of it's components with more expensive metal, the robot assumes that I love it. Ok, it's just a stupid robot, but I don't love it, I just need it in good working order to be a more efficient slave.
 
SnakeLord said:
The answer is easy. I am a 'creator' myself, and made a robot to serve me. I have no reason to 'love' it at all, it's my servant - created to do what I want it to do. Love is really not an issue.

One day, instead of cleaning the carpet, my robot killed my dog. This was a fault of the creator, (me). I had programmed it wrong. So, I drowned that robot and tried again. To this date I haven't managed to programme a properly functioning robot.

The amusing thing is that when I oil it, or tighten it's nuts (ummm), or replace some of it's components with more expensive metal, the robot assumes that I love it. Ok, it's just a stupid robot, but I don't love it, I just need it in good working order to be a more efficient slave.

How did you feel about your dog?
 
How did you feel about your dog?

It did shits on my carpet, ate my shoes, ate my daughters toys, and slobbered all over the furniture. While I wouldn't condem it to hell for being as imperfect as it is, I wouldn't say I loved my dog.

(As you know, the story was an example.. My dog is not really dead. However, I still wouldn't say I love it. Yeah he's ok, friendly etc, but love? No).

Furthermore, my dog is not here to serve. If he was, (like a mule), nobody would claim love for the thing. There is a big difference between love and servitude. Love demands nothing, whereas servitude demands everything, and eventually leaves that mule as a tub of glue for all his troubles.
 
what768 said:
It would be "easy" for god to show miracles to the whole world and take us back to paradise but then we wouldn't have come there by free will, we would be like animals and we would want to sin again because we didn't get to know god by our free will. God respects our free will, that's what you do for someone you love. God didn't give free will for the animals, so he takes care of them, but to us he gave free will. The meaning of life is to consciously learn to know god and once again be like the stones, like the trees which never sin.

Here's the problem I have with your argument. Yes, if there's an omnipotent God, it would be easy for him to show us miracles to convince the whole world that there's a powerful existent. But that wouldn't negate our free will, technically. We could still choose to reject this God, couldn't we? We could even choose to believe it's not God, but an evil force or an alien. And Christians believe people today have free will, but their idea of free will is "submit or be cast into the lake of fire". So it's not very different from God letting everyone be absolutely sure of his existence, or not.

And if there IS an omnipotent deity, who is loving, why wouldn't he make it all clear? Why would he REQUIRE faith in something uncertain, for us to live our lives a certain way, or else get the lake of fire as payment if we don't?

It will be uncertain for everyone, because there's no absolute proof that even if a deity wrote in the sky 1000 foot tall letters a different Bible verse every night, it COULD be from a force besides God, couldn't it?

If it's impossible for an omnipotent God to make it all clear to us, then he's not really omnipotent, is he?

So it boils down to faith. A loving God requires this of us? Very unfair in my opinion.
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
 
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If you live in love you are doing His will and you will be raised from the dead and receive your rewards.
If you live in hate, then your father is the devil and his end is near and so will yours be.

1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
 
c20H25N3o said:
If you live in love you are doing His will and you will be raised from the dead and receive your rewards.
If you live in hate, then your father is the devil and his end is near and so will yours be.

1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

C20, I won't be mean, but I will state this. I know from reading that you are on your 2nd marriage, while your first wife is still alive. Some consider that at least one case of adultery, and some I think may even consider it living in adultery. As for what you quoted, I don't have a problem with most of it.

But Christianity goes further. You gotta do this and that. Go to church. Be this, do that. So it puts a requirement on your life outside of a general "be good" idea. Can I be who I am and still get into to heaven? Or do I have to force myself to be something I am not, against my own will, to get into heaven?
 
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