Why isn’t God more obvious?

stretched said:
Yo SRVP,

Quote SRVP:
"He did. He rose Jesus from the dead, which is a historical event."

There is no evidence whatsoever for this event.

Quote SRVP:
" If you are willing to do an honest investigation of the evidence surrounding this event you should come to the same conclusion."

If, one moves beyond blind faith and indoctrination, and then with open mind and honest eye, one investigates this event, it would be near impossible to come to a positive conclusion.

Allcare.
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UHHH come now,
You do know better than that. I think ( not sure here ) but the agnostic church teachings are to deny all things , including historical evidence at all cost. ( most threating ).
if you believe in nothing , does that mean nothing exist???
if nothing exist , is the computer screen you are looking at now real ?
or is it just in your head ? if so would that mean there is something, other than nothing ? :confused: :p
 
one raven said:
No.
You are free to not go to the dentist if you choose not to.
However, the full knowledge of the repurcussions of you going on as if you did not have a cavity empowers you to make an informed decision.
If you do not know, then your tooth will rot off, and you will end up in excruciating pain.
That decision is beyond your capabilities to make since you do not know any better.
You will end up suffering because you DID NOT have knowledge, and there was nothing you could do about it.
If you DO know, you can avoid that pain if you so choose.
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... and the other option, if I do know about the cavity and that going to the dentist will help, is that I *don't* avoid the pain.

It is natural for humans to avoid pain, and I find it stupid and harming to knowingly not avoid it. Thus, I will go to the dentist if I notice a cavity.

It is not about an "informed decision" -- it is about avoiding pain, the best way I know to avoid it.

You said before:

one raven said:
Since when is knowledge a restriction of freedom?
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-- we're talking about cases where one HAS knowledge, not about cases where one doesn't have knowledge. And, as seen in the cavity+dentist example, knowledge is restricting my freedom.

That cavity happened, my tooth hurts, I can't go about my everyday life the way I normally would, I think of going to the dentist -- thus, my freedom is restricted. The pain IS there. And I find it reasonable that I do something about the pain; to eventually restore my freedom.

***

Chazman said:
Oh how true you are ,!!!
you know what would be even worse ???
not knowing you had a cavity , untill the pain hit, then still not knowing
that a cavity in your tooth was the real cause of the pain ,
even worse yet, ---> that you did not believe that dentist even existed!!!
then even worse ---> people try to tell you to go to the dentist to
get it fixed, but you refuse, because you don't believe in dentist, or
that they can help you, but you say nope it is useless, even if a dentist
did exist it would only make matters worse, and do no good, besides dentist
are for the faint hearted....AND THE PRICE TO PAY IS TO GREAT......
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Which price? The price of trusting others that a dentist may help against a certain kind of pain?

***

Cyperium said:
When the truth is revealed, it will be like "oh... why didn't I think of that?".

We have to believe, this life is probably the only chance for us to do that, after we die we will know.
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This is Pascal's Wager. You can do better, Cyperium.
 
Nasor said:
This is pretty much just directed at Christians, since if you have a different view of God it doesn’t really apply.

God presumably wants us to love/worship him and live according to his instructions, since he loves us and we risk hell if we don’t behave/believe properly. If that’s the case, then why doesn’t God make it a point to get noticed? [/B]
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You are right when you say that God wants us to love/worship Him (this includes living according to His Word, which is worship in another form). And you are right when you imply that in order to worship God, you must first believe in His existence. But here's the question: does belief that He exists necessarily lead to obedience and love for God? Are the two joined at the hip? Surely you can think of some people who believe that God exists but follow Him not. I can personally say from experience that belief in God does not necessarily come with the theist package.

If God were to provide unambiguous evidence that he exists – like, say, writing a page from the Bible every night in the sky in 10 mile high flaming letters – there would probably be zero atheists. So why doesn’t he do something to let us know he’s around?
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What makes you so sure that you would believe that as proof positive of God's existence? If you've brushed off the other proofs, what makes you think that you wouldn't rationalize this one?
 
RosaMagika said:
Since forever.
If you know something, you cannot do as if it weren't there.
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So from this we should conclude that our entire lives are one big experiment by God to see what we would do if we weren't sure he was there.

I think God should have realized within the first few centuries or so that the answer is pretty clear. We're going to fuck up, invent different gods, and kill each other over them.
 
Ehmm ... Chazman Dude,

Show me some evidence, us agnostics will consider all comers. The evidence as of this moment is non existant for a historical figure from circa 10-30AD called "Jesus Christ". This you can verify for yourself.

Allcare.
 
JustARide said:
"Since forever.
If you know something, you cannot do as if it weren't there."

So from this we should conclude that our entire lives are one big experiment by God to see what we would do if we weren't sure he was there.
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Hm?! How do you come to this conclusion?!
It seems biased in a cynical way.


JustARide said:
I think God should have realized within the first few centuries or so that the answer is pretty clear. We're going to fuck up, invent different gods, and kill each other over them.
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Hm?!
 
RosaMagika,
I'm sorry. That makes no sense to me at all.

RelativeUniverse said:
Science proves God.
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I've GOT to hear this one.
Please elaborate on how science proves God.


RelativeUniverse said:
From the very beggining man has been too stubborn to realize his creater
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What are you talking about?
Actually, it's quite the contrary.
Every major culture in history has invented their own God(s) and grasped for anything that could be an answer and explain everything that they did not understand.
As people have learned more and more about the world they live in, they have relied on fantasy and folklore less and less.

Why is there no longer and angry man in the sky throwing lightening down at us from the clouds when we misbehave? Because we understand what really causes it now.

Abraham's God is a relic of this phenomena that people grasp onto and will not let go of for various reasons.
 
stretched said:
Yo SRVP,

Quote SRVP:
"He did. He rose Jesus from the dead, which is a historical event."

There is no evidence whatsoever for this event.

Quote SRVP:
" If you are willing to do an honest investigation of the evidence surrounding this event you should come to the same conclusion."

If, one moves beyond blind faith and indoctrination, and then with open mind and honest eye, one investigates this event, it would be near impossible to come to a positive conclusion.

Allcare.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply, stretched, but there is plenty of proof that the resurrection is a historical event. If you approach the evidence without presuppositions and biasness (with an open mind and honest eye) the conclusion is there are no other explanations other than that Jesus rose from the dead.
 
Yo SRVP,

No worries mate, but you are going to have to show me at least one shred of evidence.

Allcare.
 
stretched said:
Ehmm ... Chazman Dude,

Show me some evidence, us agnostics will consider all comers. The evidence as of this moment is non existant for a historical figure from circa 10-30AD called "Jesus Christ". This you can verify for yourself.

Allcare.
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your good at finding the links. you have shown in the past.
However , I will get back to this and send some .
I know as well as you do. Anything that may be confronted ( unless it be God himself ) would be harshly disputed under strict skeptical scrutiny,
and then therefore rendered invaild, regardless.
am I wrong ?
also we could look at proof today ??? prophecy fullfilled from the bible to this day? is this something alittle more gullable for you ?? or far STRETCHED :bugeye:
 
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stretched said:
Ehmm ... Chazman Dude,

Show me some evidence, us agnostics will consider all comers. The evidence as of this moment is non existant for a historical figure from circa 10-30AD called "Jesus Christ". This you can verify for yourself.

Allcare.
Click to expand...

the evidence is only as good as the source!
so one may have ample evidence for another, then reject the source as not trustworthy. likewise there is no evidence that God does not exist.
Infact, as we ourselfs exist is more believeable that God exist, rather
than poof, here am! Poof here I am, Poof here I am. {% %~/-/ } .
 
RosaMagika said:
Why not?




(For sme reason, I couldn't make a direct link. Go to wikipedia and type in "Pascal's wager".)
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Ok, I understand.

The question was "why isn't God more obvious?" and I think that He allready is that obvious.

As simple as that, Pascal isn't needed in that equation.

However, I do see what you mean, I (more or less) has to assume that God exists while making that assertion, but I really think that it has some bearing in this case.

It's like adding color to a black&white picture. Even though we had seen only greyshades for all our lives, when the color is put to it's place, then it's obvious that it has to be there, and we realise that it has allways been there. We just didn't see it before.

Some people might have got the thought that there were something missing in the picture they saw, something isn't there, that should be there.

In the world we know of, that someone, is someone who can teach us about how this game is played, someone that can tell us why, someone that can lead us (and whom we can trust). That person is missing. The greater of all, the king of kings. The Judge of the world. The creator. The one we could allways go to, not in fear, but in hope.

Sin is what has ruined that for us, but peace will be restored. We were like sheep accepting that we were lost, instead of trying to get home.
 
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RosaMagika said:
Hm?! How do you come to this conclusion?!
It seems biased in a cynical way.
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You correctly stated that knowledge can limit freedom, in the sense that it grants us awareness of things we did not know. On this, I agree.

The point of this thread was to divine why a God who wanted us to love and obey him made himself so obscure. If we are to assume that the reason God has made himself so mysterious is, in fact, to allow for more "freedom" (as discussed above), then it seems God has purposefully made himself harder to know in order to see how we might act in the dark, as it were.

Certainly God's motives need not be cruel. Perhaps he has withdrawn in order to allow us to experience the wonder of not-knowing and the humility that comes with it. But, if we are referring to the Biblical God (as the original post seemed to do), things get a bit more complicated. The Biblical God punishes those who do not guess correctly. That's why God's obscurity is troubling.

If God could make himself more known (which, I think, would not be terribly difficult, considering all the miraculous events he supposedly caused in the Old Testament) and he punishes those whose only crime is failing to see through his obscurity, then we can indeed call him cruel.
 
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athiesm requires no faith, as it is not a religion.
faith as been debated quite hard, on these forums, take a look at these.
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Why is faith only applicable to religion?
 
Warrior61 said:
Why is faith only applicable to religion?
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Since Religion is believing something with no proof. Atheism is simply the lack of belief. Lack of belief requires no faith, since it is a LACK of belief in something.

Also, someone in this thread said that "Science proves god" Which is complete and utter bullshit. I'd like to see them come up with something that actually shows that "Science proves god".

RelativeUniverse said:
Science proves God. Simply put but very hard to take in. First of all God didnt make the bible,humans did, it was just a way to represent what he has told his chosen people. Reading the Bible and going to church are fine but I feel you truly need to look into your self and see if you truly believe in God. I have been a Christian for about 3 years now and sice I started opening my thoughts to him he has aswered many prayers. God will not just come down and say here this is what you wanted.He allows time between pray for you to realize what has happened and say wow it actually happen.As you grow more and more close to him your faith grows stronger and you will see that there is nothing wrong with looking to the divine for help. this world was not an accident no matter what people think. From the very beggining man has been too stubborn to realize his creater and in this modern culture it is almost non existant. Realize His power in your heart and you will see what will become of you life, it will change for the better. This will not happen over night but you will definately feel it when you realize.
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Uh, bullshit? You were right, God didn't make the Bible, humans did. Humans wanted something to explain why they were there, and why things happened.
There have been tons of examples before the Bible, that is just the most famous.

Jesus wasn't even the son of a "God", he was a mortal prophet who died and was never "resurrected". The Church just made that up so it would appeal to more people, "hey this guy came back from the dead he must be the real deal!"

You can pray all you want, as well, but they will never be answered. All you're doing is mistaking coincidences for an "answer to your prayer". You can't possibly think your God answers your prayers, or else why would anything bad happen? People would just pray to get out of it and bam.

"Growing more and more close to him" is akin to "Having your eyes become cloudier and cloudier" until you'll believe anything some people spew.

Man has been stubborn to "accept their creator" because they have no creator. Man is smart like that.

"Realize his power in your heart"? Lol, what kind of power, and what kind of heart is this? Is my heartbeat going to go up if I accept all that crap about God creating humans? I fail to see what you're trying to spew. It is almost non-existant in this modern culture because we are slowly realizing that it is WRONG, and that we were stupid to believe it. It has no more credibility than Greek, Roman, Aztec, Incan, or anyone else's "gods". I suppose Zeus is getting mad that people are Christian? Is he gonna throw lightning bolts down at us now?
 
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one_raven said:
For example?
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stretched said:
Yo SRVP,
No worries mate, but you are going to have to show me at least one shred of evidence.
Allcare.
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No problem, stretched, if you don’t mind reading the articles that are linked to these websites. (You don’t have to read them all, although I will be impressed if you did.) :)

http://www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/davis.htm#Davis

http://www.carlislecofc.org/extrabiblical.htm

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/jesusref.html

http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/rediscover2.html

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/testimonium.htm

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocont.htm

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/maier3.htm

http://www.malaspina.com/site/person_319.asp
 
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