Why is the sky blue?

Colour in perception or colour in the world?

Hoth,
after the wierd pink hypercube, it's the blue sky you're picking on.

As a cognitive psychologist I have to agree with you, fullheartedly. However, there is a field of science that does not agree. It's called ecological psychology (wich has nothing to do with tree-hugging!).
here is an article you may like. It was fun to read for me...

Whitmeyer, V.G. (1999) Ecological color. Philosophical Psychology, Vol. 12(2). pp. 197-214.
here is a link that appears to be dead now :( Ecological Colour (p197)
 
Colour is a physical property of energy and materials. Our eyes developed to take advantage of that difference.
 
Merlijn, the article still seems to be down. :( Anyway, I doubt I'd disagree with their point of view, I'd just call it useless and impractical and inconsistent with the language the rest of the world speaks.

I don't debate that you can choose to define color as the objective (4-D of course) physical structure. I'm simply observing that such a definition is very useless and doesn't apply to the ways the idea "color" is actually used by people. A paradigm case argument would easily show that such a conception of color means you're speaking a different language and so your view on the matter can be dismissed by all of us speaking normal language.

Originally posted by Adam
Colour is a physical property of energy and materials.

First, although it's a side point, properties are not physical -- they're about the physical. For something to be physical, that means it's made up of matter/energy. There is no particle or substance in the universe which is a property, properties are only conceptual ways of classifying the effects those external things have. The property of being able to cause the sensation of color when interacting with an eye and brain is dependent on the idea of the possibility of the eye and brain being there and being connected.

A useful way of thinking would say that the cause of color is a property of energy and materials. Certainly we often call that just color for short, but the actual meaning of it is cause of color (with an implied clause that it's from the point of view of human perception).

If you have even the slightest familiarity with science, you should know that a piece of the sky does not enter into the brain... nor do "physical properties" magically transport themselves from external objects into the brain. To take a direct realist approach like that is pushing science back 3000 years.

The eye is a device which alters light and produces signals based on it. These signals are further altered and interpreted by the brain. There is no giant lamp or light switch inside your head when you're seeing light. :D The experience of the light is in patterns logically mapped from the external reality, but what you experience is not itself what's out there, only a representation. Your head isn't quite big enough to fit the universe in it.

If you define color as being the objective electromagnetic waves, then you can never experience it. You only experience the translated internal representation which is caused by electromagnetic waves + eye + brain and is a part of a brain state.

Take your pick... keep the definition of color that you're using and lose all ability to say that you actually experience color or know anything about the nature of it besides logical patterns of structure, or switch to the definition the rest of the world uses.

Originally posted by Adam
Our eyes developed to take advantage of that difference.

Our eyes (and brains) developed because things live longer when they can represent external things in clearly distinguishable ways like color. It's evolutionarily advantageous for the representations to retain the logical structure of the external thing, but so long as the logical pattern of it is the same (allowing you to know where things are in relation to you) there's no advantage to making the experience similar to what it would be to directly experience the thing we're getting the representation of. In fact, evolution requires us to have what amounts to artificial highlights of things, which allow us to better distinguish between structures so that we can tell which ones are food and which are dangerous, etc.
 
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Wasn't this surpost to be a funny post. if you want to actually debate something like that go to the science threads.
 
Heh, if you bothered to read your own link, it explains how the electrical signal caused by the release of energy from the pigmant is what we experience, not the external light itself. ;)

From dictionary.com:
blue Pronunciation Key (bl)
n.
The hue of that portion of the visible spectrum lying between green and indigo, evoked in the human observer by radiant energy with wavelengths of approximately 420 to 490 nanometers; any of a group of colors that may vary in lightness and saturation, whose hue is that of a clear daytime sky; one of the additive or light primaries; one of the psychological primary hues.


As is so clearly specified there, the official definition of "blue" specifies that it's the visual experience "evoked in the human observer" by the causes which you are mistakenly labeling as color itself.

As I said, you can create your own language, but it's not English. In English, it is analytically false to say that blue is electromagnetic energy.

Of course, there are lots of definitions I'd change if I had the power to rewrite the dictionary. My definitions would totally confuse the rest of the world though I'm sure. :)
 
Hoth,
what the ecological psychology is arguing against is the idea you stated: "You only experience the translated internal representation which is caused by electromagnetic waves + eye + brain and is a part of a brain state. "
The ecological psychology argues that meaning is in the world, and therefor colour (being a meaningfull property of objects) is in the world, as opposed to "in the head".
They have a good point: with the interpretation you (and me and most of the rest of the world) give there lures the danger of Dualism: "Who is doing the actual watching then?" Is there a small human in our head interpreting the neuro-electrical messaghes coming from our eyes? That cannot be!

Well let's not go into the discussion too deep now. It's a discussion I myself have been participating for about 3 years now.... it's really tricky but a lot of fun! :)

Cheers
Merlijn
 
New language

Yes, Ecological Psychology wants a new language. According to their view, our language is full of misconceptions about how the world functions.
They have a point there: at the time definitions were given to words (wich traditionally is done by humans) we may have had different insights than we have now regarding the nature of the words defined.
 
My answer to that whole problem of observation always confuses everyone, so I won't re-confuse everyone. :)

According to that ecological psychology interpretation, though, any form of consciousness is dualism. Neuroscientists would say that the brain can be aware of itself, and they don't consider themselves dualists in saying that. They attribute it to complex neural networks creating the sense of self-observation, and of course part of that self-observation would be observation of color.

If ecological psychology is forced to say that we extend ourselves into the entire universe when we view it, well, that's funny. So when I look at this computer that means part of me in jumping out into it. ;) Either that or they're behaviorists who believe people never think but only react.

On a less analytical and more fun note, that would be interesting if I could say the sky is blue because I am being the sky. :D
 
Originally posted by Asguard
Save me they are being seriouse again

Reading the dictionary, defining meanings of terms, and exploring an idea that people directly experience the world without their sense organs doing anything to change it, isn't fun? Why not? :D
 
I'm blue too!

"So when I look at this computer that means part of me in jumping out into it. Either that or they're behaviorists who believe people never think but only react. "
Actually a bit of both.
Ecological psychology is near to behaviorism. Very perceptive! I am impressed.
Ecological psychology is something like: perception is the interaction of an organism with its environment.

And... when it concearns issues of philosophy of mind, it is wise not to listen to neuroscientists too much. They tend to boast more knowledge\insight then they actually have. Hahaha. I hope I am not upsettnig too many people here.
 
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