Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?

Do you accept the official explanation that fire caused the collapse?

  • Yes

    Votes: 33 44.6%
  • No

    Votes: 35 47.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 6 8.1%

  • Total voters
    74
mercaptan said:
Ok, so tell me, when have foreigners ever shot down a plane over Penn.?
Gee whiz, the guy just made a slip of the tongue (happens all the time in real life, in case you've never noticed) and probably meant "brought down" or something similar.

That's one of the marks of conspiracy theorists, they immediately jump on the slightest inconsistency when someone is talking. They all must be perfect speakers themselves, I suppose, and never ever say anything a little wrong accidentally. They must also be machines because normal people make "speaking mistakes" (as opposed to written, which is much less frequent) fairly often. I guess the theorists don't.
 
mercaptan said:
Ok, so tell me, when have foreigners ever shot down a plane over Penn.?
This is an addendum to my last response to you about how common slips of the tongue are, even among high government officials.

Here's an excerpt of an interview of Michael Brown, the ousted head of FEMA, by Brian Williams.

Michael Brown: I shouted it from the mountaintops. In the first, I'm going to use the term SVCC — secure video conference call — that we had, that I conducted from FEMA, after it (Hurricane Katrina) had passed the Florida penninsula. I told everybody in that conference call — the president, Chertoff, the state of New Orleans, all of the teams, all the departments and agencies — my gut tells me this is the big one.

I suppose from the logic you used on Rumsfield's statements that you would also conclude from THIS statement that Brown thinks New Orleans is one of the states in the U.S.??

(That was taken from here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11549116/ )
 
flash.jpg


Can U see the flash ?

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video archive/
 
My mistake spidergoat, I thought you were referring to it's ability to conduct heat, I was mistaken. Anyways, as a consequence of A/d being in the equation, it is just the reciprocal of the volume of the equation and yes it will affect heat conductivity, just to clarify for others not paying attention.

Anyways, "It was really a miracle that they didn't fall immediately, and a testament to the quality of the design." The japanese engineer on a phone interview said he didn't understand why it fell and that they had specifically designed it to withstand fires more intense than the apparent 9/11 fire, although the fire might have been an inferno (which if you read the transcripts of what the fire chief had said when he reached the 70th floor, you'll read otherwise).

So really, it was a severe engineering flaw because it didn't withstand what it was specifically designed to. I'm not trying to play on your words, but really.. had it been a quality design it would have survived because of it's particular design. Of course, that's why I'm here debating the fact that a plane would not have caused the building to collapse.
 
9/11 ATTACKS - Avoiding the hard questions

9/11 ATTACKS - Avoiding the hard questions

ROBERT STEINBACK

Posted on Wed, Feb. 01, 2006

I was 8 years old when President John Kennedy was shot to death in Dallas in 1963. If grace favors me, I'll be 62 when documents related to the assassination are released to the public, and 84 when the Warren Commission's investigative files into the tragedy are finally opened.

That's a long time to wait for a chance to evaluate the purported truth.

It's a blot on the presumed sophistication of the people of the United States that any aspect of an event so dramatic and shocking should be kept from us. Perhaps it's true, to abuse the line from A Few Good Men yet again, that we can't handle the truth. But there cannot be genuine resolution as long as such critical information remains concealed.

Transformed by 9/11

Since Kennedy's assassination, Americans have lurched between demanding to know and plugging their ears: The Pentagon Papers, My Lai, the King assassination, Watergate, Iran-contra, the savings-and-loan debacle, Monicagate. Lately, however, it would seem the public's verdict is in: Don't tell us. Keep us in the dark. We don't want to know.

This is the worst possible time for probe-ophobia to grip us. Our nation was irretrievably transformed by 9/11 -- and yet there remain troubling questions about what really happened before, during and after that day. Rather than demanding a full and fearless vetting to hone in on the truth and silence the conjecture about 9/11, many Americans remain unwilling to peer into the microscope.

An online cottage industry of theorists, theory debunkers and debunker debunkers has flourished since 9/11. Sometimes the flimsy theories are easy to spot -- come on, if the four passenger jets didn't crash where it appears they did, where did they go? More often, though, the cases aren't so obvious.

A group of experts and academicians 'devoted to applying the principles of scientific reasoning to the available evidence, `letting the chips fall where they may,' '' last week accused the government of covering up evidence that the three destroyed New York City buildings were brought down that day by controlled demolition rather than structural failure. The group, called Scholars for 9/11 Truth, has a website www.st911.org.

Unanswered questions

The reflexive first reaction is incredulity -- how, one asks, could anyone even contemplate, never mind actually do such a barbaric thing? But before you shut your mind, check the resumés -- these aren't Generation X geeks subsisting on potato chips and PlayStation. Then look at the case they present.

''I am a professional philosopher who has spent 35 years teaching logic, critical thinking and scientific reasoning,'' group co-founder and University of Minnesota professor James H. Fetzer told me. ``When I come to 9/11, it's not hard for me to determine what is going on. This is a scientific question. And it is so elementary that I don't think you can find a single physicist who could disagree with the idea that this was a controlled demolition.''

The group asks, for example,

• How did a fire fed by jet fuel, which at most burns at 1,700 degrees Fahrenheit, cause the collapse of the Twin Towers, built of steel that melts at 2,800 degrees? (Most experts agree that the impact of airliners, made mostly of lightweight aluminum, should not have been enough alone to cause structural failure.) How could a single planeload of burning jet fuel -- most of which flared off in the initial fireball -- cause the South World Trade Center tower to collapse in just 56 minutes?

• Why did building WTC-7 fall, though no aircraft struck it? Fire alone had never before caused a steel skyscraper to collapse.

• Why did all three buildings collapse largely into their own footprints -- in the style of a controlled demolition?

• Why did no U.S. military jet intercept the wayward aircraft?

• Why has there been no investigation of BBC reports that five of the alleged 9/11 hijackers were alive and accounted for after the event?

Our current probe-ophobia is due in part to the political landscape: When one party holds all the cards, any call to investigate an alleged abuse of power or cover-up -- no matter how valid -- will look like a partisan vendetta. Those in power never want to investigate themselves.

Maybe that's politics; he who holds the hammer drives the nails. But the outrage of 9/11 transcends party affiliation.

We need all the outstanding questions answered -- wherever the chips may fall.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/robert_steinback/13 760721.htm
 
Light said:
Gee whiz, the guy just made a slip of the tongue (happens all the time in real life, in case you've never noticed) and probably meant "brought down" or something similar.

Thank You! Yes, I agree with you for the most part. But it's just funny how he didn't correct himself - maybe he just didn't realize at the moment what he had said. Fine.

Either way, THAT was the point I was trying to make. My reading comprension skills are excellent like I said before. I never said he made a comment about the US military doing anything! Just that he said something that directly contradicts with the official report of what happened....that's all.

Shot down and brought down are very different from each other and I think that it's perfectly normal to find that interesting. Sometimes people slip at the mouth and the truth comes out....this is perfectly plausible! I know because I've done it myself before and have seen others do it.

I also said before that I am no conspiracy theorist. Those idiots get on my nerves for their ignorance of reality. I just like to investigate. I don't accept any theory as of now.
 
Light said:
This is an addendum to my last response to you about how common slips of the tongue are, even among high government officials.

Here's an excerpt of an interview of Michael Brown, the ousted head of FEMA, by Brian Williams.

Michael Brown: I shouted it from the mountaintops. In the first, I'm going to use the term SVCC — secure video conference call — that we had, that I conducted from FEMA, after it (Hurricane Katrina) had passed the Florida penninsula. I told everybody in that conference call — the president, Chertoff, the state of New Orleans, all of the teams, all the departments and agencies — my gut tells me this is the big one.

I suppose from the logic you used on Rumsfield's statements that you would also conclude from THIS statement that Brown thinks New Orleans is one of the states in the U.S.??

(That was taken from here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11549116/ )


Well, in this case it makes more sense as to why he would have said that. Considering the fragment: "state of New Orleans" out of that context makes perfect sense as the state of New Orleans was the major focus of what was going on.

Stop trying to prove a point that I already concur with.
 
mercaptan said:
Well, in this case it makes more sense as to why he would have said that. Considering the fragment: "state of New Orleans" out of that context makes perfect sense as the state of New Orleans was the major focus of what was going on.

Stop trying to prove a point that I already concur with.
Thank you and no problem. I really wasn't pushing it on purpose. It just happened that right after making that prior post I went to the news - and bingo - there was that article. I was just reading it along out of interest when I happened to spot that little slip.
 
Hurricane Angel said:
Of course, that's why I'm here debating the fact that a plane would not have caused the building to collapse.
i don't think anyone is saying the buildings collapsed because of the crash.
if that was the case the buildings would have fell within moments of the crash
 
mercaptan said:
Thank You! Yes, I agree with you for the most part. But it's just funny how he didn't correct himself - maybe he just didn't realize at the moment what he had said. Fine.
no, what is funny is no one asked rumsfeld if he even made such a statement.
or what he meant by the one he DID make
 
leopold99 said:
no, what is funny is no one asked rumsfeld if he even made such a statement.
or what he meant by the one he DID make
As far as we know, no one did. But that doesn't mean he wasn't asked. I believe most people, like me, felt sure it was nothing more than a slip of the tongue in a very long sentence. Check the length of it - he had a lot of things on his mind and was trying to crowd them all in at once.
 
this is just a rehash of various other threads on this subject
ones that are still on page one of the forums too.
 
Hurricane Angel said:
Anyways, "It was really a miracle that they didn't fall immediately, and a testament to the quality of the design." The japanese engineer on a phone interview said he didn't understand why it fell and that they had specifically designed it to withstand fires more intense than the apparent 9/11 fire, although the fire might have been an inferno (which if you read the transcripts of what the fire chief had said when he reached the 70th floor, you'll read otherwise).

Engineers can be wrong, too you know. I think Canadian (or maybe Australian; one of the colonies, anyway) engineers all wear an iron ring to commemorate a bridge that fell when it shouldn't have. We can't go around making up conspiracy theories for everything that doesn't work as it should. Where's my cheap, affordable jet-pack, anyway? And why don't my spam filters keep all spam out? Is George Bush sneaking onto the system and sending me messages entitled "zoo pr()n! b4by! yehah!" or trying to get me to give him my bank information?

Geoff
 
For that "flash"- the static discharge theory isn't so far-fetched; the "flare" was filmed/videotaped from multiple locations and is about the right light intensity and duration for an ESD event, but I know of no means of estimating actual voltaic potential from visual evidence.
 
GeoffP said:
Come on. Is there some serious evidence of this or not?
Geoff
yes there is
i have a video called "CNN remembers" and it shows a flash right at impact.

concerning this
i used to sandblast
the sandblaster was powered by a 4 cylinder engine
at night the sand would make little sparks as it hit the metal
also the stream itself was a faint blue color
so when it comes to high speed impact the flash means nothing in my opinion
 
Errr...the plane's headlights?

Come on. Is there some serious evidence of this or not?

----------------------
Yeah, I watched the video, and had my doubts too.
For instance if this was a military plane or modification launching a missle why would they need to if the building was already wired with demolition charges....?
As I've said before the way it ended with "lets roll" against the government makes the whole thing a leftist anti'gov.film, and ruins any credibilty it had with me....
However that doesn't mean to say everything they dug up was false....
Some of it sounded pretty good I have to admit.
 
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