Why dont i believe in god?

Originally Posted by MarcAC
The problem is: Some people seem to beleive omnipotence means being able to break all the rules,sure. But if God were intelligent and cared for us at all, would that make any sense? How could we then recognise order and purpose in our universe/existence and thus infer His presence? God cares for us and our free will in His creation. The only way everything can be possible is if all rules are broken, obviously. If there was a world without rules or some form of order to it then we wouldn't be able to understand it, obviously. Thus God may be omnipotent and in fact possess the ability to do everything, but we are here, and if we are then God has to limit His ability so that the world can be at all tolerable to us. If anyone sees any way God can work around this then it is upon them to offer such suggestions. Saying "God should be able to do this" doesn't prove anything. Omnipotence doesn't mean being able to do the impossible. It means being able to do everthing that is possible (whatever that is).

the two statements are quite obviously conflicting how you cant see it is beyond me.



there is also conflicting statements here, misty=“ If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them? ”

you=Yes,

misty=“ Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. ”

you=Yes,

misty=“ He is omniscient and He created Hell? ”

me=and heres the conflict

you=becasue hell is a necessity because of people like you and me too I guess. Why? Because free will allows you a choice to either go with God or go without God. Hell is a place without God. God's loving presence is removed from hell. You choose to go without God, you choose to go to hell. Simple. Hell is a result of your choice. If you didn't choose to go without God, hell wouldn't be needed.



misty=Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? ”

you=No, men aren't what God created them to be. Since they have free will, they can choose what they want to be; children of God, or not.

misty=“ He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive. ”

you=No, because they choose to go there. If you choose to go to hell that means you want to go to hell. God gives you what you want. Why complain?

me= can you now see the conflict, or are you simply, blinded by you faith.

where is the choice?.
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
Some people seem to beleive omnipotence means being able to break all the rules,sure. But if God were intelligent and cared for us at all, would that make any sense?...The only way everything can be possible is if all rules are broken, obviously. If there was a world without rules or some form of order to it then we wouldn't be able to understand it,

...the two statements are quite obviously conflicting how you cant see it is beyond me.
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The reason you can't explain the conflict is not beyond me. It's because there's no conflict to explain. Or do you just have this conviction that it's wrong? Blinded by your faith perhaps? You do the same you do with the Bible; isolate texts and interpret them out of context.

Anyway, to update you somewhat; I originally replied to a post which alluded to the silly misconception that; "If it is impossible, God must be able to do it." The stupid thing in that statement is that it is equivalent to saying this; "If it is impossible, then it is possible."
The two statements you refer to these;
  1. Some people seem to believe omnipotence means being able to break all the rules,sure. But if God were intelligent and cared for us at all, would that make any sense?
  2. The only way everything can be possible is if all rules are broken, obviously. If there was a world without rules or some form of order to it then we wouldn't be able to understand it, obviously.

The corollary of the two statements, which your faith tells you contradict is this; not everything is possible because we exist and there have to be rules in place so the we can make sense of the world. Thus God may be omnipotent and be able to break all rules, but we exist, He cares, He allows us free will thus God does not break the rules or else we wouldn't have free will. You didn't read the statements in context.
“ If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them? ”
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Yes,
“ Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. ”
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Yes,
“ He is omniscient and He created Hell? ”

me=and heres the conflict

...becasue hell is a necessity because of people like you and me too I guess. Why? Because free will allows you a choice to either go with God or go without God. Hell is a place without God. God's loving presence is removed from hell. You choose to go without God, you choose to go to hell. Simple. Hell is a result of your choice. If you didn't choose to go without God, hell wouldn't be needed.
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No, there's no conflict. The conflict is all in your head with regards to the function of a verb and a noun or adjective. You seem to think that because God knows the future then free will is reduced to nothing. Now, is knowledge = verb? Or is choose = verb? Knowledge = noun. Choose = verb. You are implying that God acts in some way to prevent us from choosing, through knowledge = noun. But is knowledge = action (verb)? No, that = nonsense. Thus, God may see = past = present = future, but you still chose = past, choose = present, and will choose = future. Knowledge is not action bro. If you didn't choose then there would be no consequence of your choice to know about.

If you are a student of science; One of the prime debates within scientific circles now is if time is linear and progresses from past to future or time is, as Einstein surmises, somewhat static and instead has something like, coordinates lets say. He has already shown that time is not absolute. Time is relative. You just need to stretch your mind a little to realise that there is no conflict there along with brushing up on your grammar. Also, strikingly, there is a seeming effect called aaaa... Quantum Uncertainty I think. I'm sure you've heard of Schrodinger's Cat? One interpretation of the effect is that things aren't 'certain' or 'definite' until we affect them. God might see the effects of our affections in the future, but still, while these effects aren't affected here in the present, we still have the choice of affecting the effects, or not. You migt think then; "Well then the effect that God knows is the effect we will affect." Exactly right, but the choice is still there, because the effect has not been affected as yet - in the present it is still uncertain. Christianity + Science at its best.
can you now see the conflict, or are you simply, blinded by you faith.
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Can you now = see that you = erred or do you want me to quote = a dictionary?
where is the choice?.
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Right there in your hands.
 
MarcAC said:
The problem is: Some people seem to beleive omnipotence means being able to break all the rules, sure. But if God were intelligent and cared for us at all, would that make any sense? How could we then recognise order and purpose in our universe/existence and thus infer His presence? God cares for us and our free will in His creation. The only way everything can be possible is if all rules are broken, obviously. If there was a world without rules or some form of order to it then we wouldn't be able to understand it, obviously. Thus God may be omnipotent and in fact possess the ability to do everything, but we are here, and if we are then God has to limit His ability so that the world can be at all tolerable to us. If anyone sees any way God can work around this then it is upon them to offer such suggestions. Saying "God should be able to do this" doesn't prove anything. Omnipotence doesn't mean being able to do the impossible. It means being able to do everthing that is possible (whatever that is).
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Uh, what? Is this somehow a response to what I said? All I said is that God should be able to create a world free of evil and full of good. I never said he should be able to do the theoretically impossible, such as creating 'square circles', to use a common example.
 
IMHO, omniscience may imply “all-knowing” but does not necessarily mean “all-controlling”.
For example: suppose we had a bird’s eye view of a city where we could see every road and street that leads in and out of it. At every intersection we can see cars, trucks, and buses make turns or continue straight. We know from their driving where they may be traveling to within the city or if they are traveling through the city. We may know the destination the drivers are going to when they are using the city’s roads, yet we are not controlling them when they reach an intersection and they make a decision on which turn to take.
In this regard God is “omniscient” in that He knows the outcome from the decisions that we make, but does not make our decisions.
 
TheERK said:
...All I said is that God should be able to create a world free of evil and full of good. I never said he should be able to do the theoretically impossible, such as creating 'square circles', to use a common example.
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Well lovely then, a stellarly examplary post for some others on this thread I hope. My apologies.

Creation, as is evident, is a process. God will create his world free of evil and full of good once those who want to choose to be in that world have chosen and He returns to create this world (who knows, science seems to dictate it will not be anytime soon, but regardless, we all have one life to live in which we choose).

The fact is that free will exists, people have free will and so some choose evil. With that, the question of creating an all encompassing 'universe for all' without evil and with free will remains a question to which only God has the answer. In other words is it possible? Or is it like creating a square circle? Only God knows.
 
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: There is NO SUCH THING as the Christian God.
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Wow.:D

It is incredible how some situations can have perfect analogies. For example, reading some posts from certain individuals.;)

I liken it to immunity from some debilitating viruses... or maybe venom. You just get some small doses at a time and you build up your immunity.

Eventually you stare the virus in the face, fully immune, and as an analogy with some posts, just smile and consider it a God given blessing.:)

Trust me, reading them is like sitting and staring at a featureless dark space.
 
MarcAC: It is incredible how some situations can have perfect analogies. For example, reading some posts from certain individuals.;)

I liken it to immunity from some debilitating viruses... or maybe venom. You just get some small doses at a time and you build up your immunity.

Eventually you stare the virus in the face, fully immune, and as an analogy with some posts, just smile and consider it a God given blessing.:)

Trust me, reading them is like sitting and staring at a featureless dark space.
*************
M*W: Good point! That "featureless dark space" you are staring into is the face of Christianity. Behind that "featureless dark space" is the truth. Sometimes facing the truth is not pleasant, and sometimes it hurts. That is because people really don't want to change or adapt to new beliefs or new situations. It's just so much easier to keep believing in a lie than to search for the truth behind that "featureless dark space" you keep staring at. At one time, I was just as gullible as you by setting myself up to be a victim of that rampant spiritual epidemic called Christianity that contaminated my soul. One day I looked behind that "featureless dark space," and I saw the truth that had been revealed to me. Then I became fully immunized against the putrid disease of Christianity.
 
MarcAC said:
The fact is that free will exists, people have free will and so some choose evil. With that, the question of creating an all encompassing 'universe for all' without evil and with free will remains a question to which only God has the answer. In other words is it possible? Or is it like creating a square circle? Only God knows.
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No, it is not a question to which only God has the answer. Humans can answer this question, and the answer is most likely yes.

God could have created humans which make choices, yet happen to always make good choices.
 
TheERK said:
God could have created humans which make choices, yet happen to always make good choices.
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I don't think you meant to write a contradictory statement like the above, TheERK.
For example: How could anyone say that men still has freedom to choose if they always choose 'good'? To fully appreciate the 'good' choices they would have to have the ability to make 'bad' choices as well. Otherwise you have removed their freedom to choose. Could you explain your statement in more detail? Just curious. :)
 
TheERK said:
No, it is not a question to which only God has the answer. Humans can answer this question, and the answer is most likely yes.
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Not enough said. First demonstrate how it can be done, then you might have an acceptable answer. The answer may be available to humans, but only God knows.
God could have created humans which make choices, yet happen to always make good choices.
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Even then it seems to me that there would be no free will. Remember, freedom is freedom. An 'infinite' amount of choices, no restrictions, except those which are necessary to maintain physical order (laws) - no square circles. As far as my understanding goes, when you state "yet happen to always make" (referring to humans) it would seem like God would be imposing some kind of 'physical order' and thus we would have no choice. Sure, electrons need to orbit atoms for us to exist (in this state) at all, so that doesn't violate our freedom of choice. However, if God were to make something always so, that would be a restriction.

I do hope you are not on the wavelength that God created evil. Evil is a result of man's freedom of choice (not choosing the good). But hey, you either accept that, or wish being created without a freedom of choice - wish being... a rock...

And yes, even another angle to see it from as posted by SVRP.
 
...Trust me, reading them is like sitting and staring at a featureless dark space...
Medicine Woman said:
...That is because people really don't want to change or adapt to new beliefs or new situations...
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Such change is only justified once the "new belief" or "new situation" makes sense to the person and then seems to be a wise choice. I respect non-wagonists.
At one time, I was just as gullible as you by setting myself up to be a victim of that rampant spiritual epidemic called Christianity that contaminated my soul.
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:pImmunity at its best. Funny. Do you know me? That's an unwise statement. Anyway, not all Christians are gullible, which suggests that your gullibility may well not have been in any way related to Christianity. The question then becomes; When did that gullibility go away? Did it? Were you still gullible when you "looked behind the featureless dark space"?
 
MarcAC said:
...Trust me, reading them is like sitting and staring at a featureless dark space...Such change is only justified once the "new belief" or "new situation" makes sense to the person and then seems to be a wise choice.
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M*W: No, this is not correct. Change happens even without a "new belief" or "new situation." This change does not necessarily "make sense to the person" at that time nor does that person necessarily see it as "a wise choice." It's more of a revelation or simply an introduction to a state of non-belief. Rationality may come immediately, but most likely, one's rationality comes later. One must be "deprogrammed" from the lies one believes before one can accept another choice -- or none at all! The timing is different for everybody, depending on each person's thought processes. Let me use SouthStar as an example. Look how long he was a member of sciforums before this new reality slapped him in the face. He'd been a steadfast Christian all his life. Surely, his deconversion didn't happen overnight.
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I respect non-wagonists.:p
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M*W: Okay, you've lost me here. What are "non-wagonists?" People who get off the main wagon?
*************
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Immunity at its best. Funny. Do you know me? That's an unwise statement.
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M*W: No, I don't know you nor do you know me. We only know each other from what we write on this forum. From what I've learned on sciforums and earlier in my life by experience, I find Christians to be gullible and without free-thought. I believe Christians have no free-will.
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Anyway, not all Christians are gullible, which suggests that your gullibility may well not have been in any way related to Christianity.
*************
M*W: My "gullibility" was directly related to my former belief in Christianity. When the truth was revealed to me by none other than the seat of Christianity itself, The Vatican, it had a devastating effect on me and my "learned belief system." To me, there was nothing spiritual about The Vatican or its religion. I sensed evil throughout The Vatican. It made my skin crawl. Had I not had the opportunity to visit The Vatican, I may never have had the revelation of its lies. I fought my thoughts, and I prayed for forgiveness, and I promised God I would be even a better Christian. I felt guilty, so guilty, about my thoughts. When I returned from Rome, I made an appointment to talk to my parish priest where I posed several questions to him. His answers were basically: 1) Satan gave me those negative thoughts against Christianity; 2) I have sinned and I must pray and do penance for eternity; 3) Women should not ask such questions; 4) I must read everything I could find on Catholicism -- then he gave me the key to the parish library; 5) I should live under the direction of my husband (who is my Earthly authority); 6) I would be tested on the material I read from the parish library so I could "get right with God."

And, I did. I read everything the parish library had to offer. I prayed for Satan to leave me alone. I prayed for my soul which I was about to lose to Satan. I tried, God knows, I tried to respect my husband whom he, himself, had abandoned his faith first for Mormonism (because of a Danish woman), then to Primative Baptist (due to another woman he met), then to Pentecostal religion (because of some charismatic woman). I never went back to be "tested" by the priest on my fund of knowledge of Christianity, because I could not lie just to make the priest happy with me. I left my husband with the urgency of the priest for his apostasy toward Catholicism. I came to realize the higher power that controlled my life -- was only me. I knew to survive in this world and hold onto my spirit required me to leave all organized religion. By doing this, I became closer to "God." I believed in the efficacy of God's grace for a number of years following that. When I came to sciforums, the veil was lifted. I saw the error of my beliefs. There is no dying demigod savior. There is no salvation -- it's not necessary. I came to believe that the only God I believe in, is me. I survived this life because of me -- not some dying demigod savior. Had it been up to that dying demigod savior, I probably wouldn't be here right now. I escaped the clutches of Christianity. I have been saved. I am reborn.
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The question then becomes; When did that gullibility go away? Did it? Were you still gullible when you "looked behind the featureless dark space"?
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M*W: My gullibility ended when I saw the light behind that "featureless dark space" we call Christianity. This process took years, for me, about 10 years before I realized what a fool I had been. Then I grieved for my loss. That took another five years. It was if I'd lost a family member. Then, I realized I hadn't lost anything -- I'd gained perspective, reality, a new life. I won't ever go back to where I was before in that "featureless dark space" called Christianity.
 
SVRP said:
I don't think you meant to write a contradictory statement like the above, TheERK.
For example: How could anyone say that men still has freedom to choose if they always choose 'good'? To fully appreciate the 'good' choices they would have to have the ability to make 'bad' choices as well. Otherwise you have removed their freedom to choose. Could you explain your statement in more detail? Just curious. :)
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That isn't contradictory at all. You know, every choice in the world isn't a choice of good or evil. Some choices are among several goods--if God made it so we always chose one of these goods, then we'd have both free will and a world without evil choices.
 
TheERK said:
That isn't contradictory at all. You know, every choice in the world isn't a choice of good or evil. Some choices are among several goods--if God made it so we always chose one of these goods, then we'd have both free will and a world without evil choices.
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"...if God made it so we always chose...";)
 
MarcAC said:
"...if God made it so we always chose...";)
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If you think you're being clever by taking that sentence fragment and winking, implying that I've somehow made a mistake, you're wrong. What I said is not contradictory. Once again, you're interpreting 'choice' to be a binary selection between good or evil.

You, too, claim that God does make us choose. He makes us choose by giving us free will. We can't *not* make choices, because we have free will. The only difference between my scenario and yours is that yours involves a choice between good and evil, and mine involves choices between various outcomes, all of which happen to be good. The free will isn't limited; the items we can select by applying that free will is.
 
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