Why does God not prove that he exists ?

[duendy]

All I'm saying is that I use he because that sounds best and everyone always says that. Is that so "fucking" hard to understand?

me)))no, i did understand. i said you were being conformist though. just cause 'everybody does it' dont mea YOU have to now, do it?


I don't play any tricks, you're just so consumed with that fucking patriarchy crap that you can't see a shit, you're totally blind, and you're the one causing all war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've discussed with you earlier too, and you always misunderstand everything I say and form every word according to the way you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you think everyone hates females because thats all you think about, female female female female, nature nature nature nature, patriarcy fuck fuck fuck fuck everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you never talk about anything else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

me)))))))ahhhhhhhh, feel better now. you really freaked didne you? you know, i am not sure, but that reply maybe could the biggest freak out reply i have experienced since my time doin the forums!....do you offer you the oscarnow ..or?

Well, it can't really be helped if you think that everyone who says 'he' when they talk about God oppresses nature and females. Saying she would oppress males and heaven (consciousness) then I guess, so what word do you want me to use.

me)))dont WANT you to do anything, BUT....notice just how my post affected you emoionally. very seemingly uncharacteristic of your style. never really heard you swear that much before. so i DID hit a nerve, and am asking you to be aware of that..is all



Bullshit. You're lying. You hate men.

me_______no, i hate the patriarchs who oppress freedom. men also havebeen oppressed by that mindset, not just women

How does it feel? How does it feel when you're speaking the truth and someone tells that you'r lying? I believe that you don't have anything against men even though you always talk about female oppression, so why can't you believe me when I say that men and women are equal?

we.....um, see your freak out in this post. whats it tell ya?

 

[Lord Insane]

I think c7 has been on :m:

 

[genep]

In some recent polls it looks like there is a lot of agnostics around !!

If an agnostic is a person, who accepts the possibility of God, but do not want to believe, untill he has received proof for the existence of God -
then why does God not just give this proof ??????

And what proof would we accept ?????

How can he, God, prove himself if "YOU" -- your mind and its body -- does not exist?

And if physics has it right with "the observer determines the observations" then can anything prove that it exists if the observer determines the observations. I mean, ... all this insanity about religions: the observer determines the religions he thinks he needs… it has nothing to do with the “outside” religion.. it is all inside the mind.

If physics is right then everything, like god and the universe, has to be in our mind, like hallucinations, … just like in a dream.
AND, yes, this means that I am writing this to myself so I can laugh at the absurdity of it all.

 

[spidergoat]

Why would God care? Maybe He is testing you. Maybe He proved His existence with the resurrection and all those miracles. Maybe everything is God, and therefore, everything is proof. Maybe He realizes you will know soon enough.

 

[VitalOne]

This can be explained by Hindu Philosophy....

God is the absolute truth, the origin of existence, beyond the cause and effect of the material world

So that's like saying, if Calculus exists...then why doesn't it show itself to me?

As Krishna says:
"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-maya]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." - (Bhagavad Gita 7.25)

 

[Cris]

Vitalone,

So that's like saying, if Calculus exists...then why doesn't it show itself to me?

Not really - calculus is a man made tool God and has no sentience nad has no ability to choose - presumably a god can make a choice.

 

[Cris]

Vitalone,

This can be explained by Hindu Philosophy....

God is the absolute truth, the origin of existence, beyond the cause and effect of the material world

That in an imaginative speculation, and it's only value as an explanation would be if it could be shown to be true, which your statement does not demonstrate.

 

[Cris]

Vitalone,

As Krishna says:
"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-maya]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." - (Bhagavad Gita 7.25)

Whereas the exact opposite appears to be the truth. Many statistical polls now show that the more intelligent and the better educated are the ones that do not see or believe in gods.

 

[genep]

This can be explained by Hindu Philosophy....

God is the absolute truth, the origin of existence, beyond the cause and effect of the material world

So that's like saying, if Calculus exists...then why doesn't it show itself to me?

As Krishna says:
"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-maya]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." - (Bhagavad Gita 7.25)

If you want to know what the Bhagavad Gita is all about then stay away from all the experts of Advaita and go see the movie Fight Club.
And if you stay away from the experts, who can only explain the word “simple” by complicating it … and if you can think for yourself, you will realize that the Fight Club echoes the exact same story of the Bhagavad Gita. But there is far more. The Fight Club goes so far beyond the Gita with its message of non-duality that it makes it obvious how much the Gita is shackled to social and religious norms that are totally incompatible with understanding non-duality, the one Reality, Atman.

In fact the Fight Club goes into areas of non-duality that, even today, no society would let even a god like Krishna talk about.

If you don’t get the message it is only because you missed the Gita’s message about “there is no doer” and thus “you have no choice to fight.”
But if you keep the subject “simple” you should realize the Fight Club’s “beyond-Gita-message.” And then you can have a good laugh at what the experts of Advaita have to say when you tell them that the Bhagavad Gita only flirts with the real message of non-duality that only the Fight Club makes obvious.

 

[VitalOne]

Vitalone,

Not really - calculus is a man made tool God and has no sentience nad has no ability to choose - presumably a god can make a choice.

Calculus is man made I agree, but what I'm trying to say is that is like saying "if the truth exists why doesn't it prove itself to me", using Calculus as a way to illustrate that

Vitalone,

That in an imaginative speculation, and it's only value as an explanation would be if it could be shown to be true, which your statement does not demonstrate.

Well, I'm basing it purely on Hindu Philosophy, it's exactly what Hindu Scriptures and experts on the Vedanta say

Vitalone,

Whereas the exact opposite appears to be the truth. Many statistical polls now show that the more intelligent and the better educated are the ones that do not see or believe in gods.

If you read the quote carefully, you would know that it says "the deluded world knows Me not", and according to Hindu Scriptures, in this Kali Yuga men's intelligence will be diverted to atheism, they will think themselves to be smart. It proves to be true. Those athiests who think themselves to be smart are covered by the creative potency of the material world, which has no factual basis (according to Hindu philosophy). Also, many theists also would be considered to not know God.

The point of the quote is, how can the absolute truth, the orgin of existence come to a foolish, unintelligent person?

 

[Cris]

Vitalone,

If you read the quote carefully, you would know that it says "the deluded world knows Me not", and according to Hindu Scriptures, in this Kali Yuga men's intelligence will be diverted to atheism,

But this is normal religious propaganda we see in other religions such as Islam and Christianity. It is a basic political tactic to imply that if you do not follow our way then you must be foolish and unintelligent. There is no wisdom in this tactic but there is fear that many will not follow this religious path otherwise why make the statement. If the path was of real value then the wise and intelligent would follow it regardless and there would be no need for propaganda.

they will think themselves to be smart. It proves to be true.

Again this is the opposite of reality. Atheists say they do not know of a god, not because they think themselves smart but because they genuinely don’t know. Religionists, however, do think themselves smart because they believe they have discovered the source of ultimate knowledge, but of course they can’t say how or prove their claims.

Those athiests who think themselves to be smart are covered by the creative potency of the material world,

That doesn’t follow, mainly because of my last point but also because even if atheist doesn’t mean they will follow a materialistic lifestyle. The search and love of material things is separate from beliefs or unbelief in gods.

The point of the quote is, how can the absolute truth, the origin of existence come to a foolish, unintelligent person?

Agreed. And my point was that atheists tend to be among the wise and intelligent.

 

[duendy]

see Chris, where we agree in THIS thread a bit is that i also dont believe in a 'Oneness' as opposed to a 'Many' as in so-called nondualismof Adviata Vewdanta, nor to gods like 'Krishna' nor Christian 'God'--when it is suggested mythically they are an abstract i must worship etc

rather have insight into sentience. tis is where we agree. you see outside organism ands stage set o blind mechanical forces/unsentient, i do now.....IF you do not, then you dont only not have the religions 'God' you just have science and materialism. an 'interest' in Nature yes, but not presumably a deep ecstatic relationship----not all the time of course, ie., in an extreme orm. but te potential for complete ecstatic abandon in creation~ing....THA is GODDESS< GOD. both. it is being in ecstaic process. all sentient

 

[VitalOne]

Vitalone,

But this is normal religious propaganda we see in other religions such as Islam and Christianity. It is a basic political tactic to imply that if you do not follow our way then you must be foolish and unintelligent. There is no wisdom in this tactic but there is fear that many will not follow this religious path otherwise why make the statement. If the path was of real value then the wise and intelligent would follow it regardless and there would be no need for propaganda.

Krishna clearly identifies himself as the absolute truth, origin of existence, and many other aspects of the ultimate observer. Also, Krishna describes many spiritual paths one can follow through devotion, knowledge, action, austerities, etc..., not just one path as you stated

I agree it does seem to resemble tactics used by Islam and Christianity in some manner, but in Hindu Philosophy, God is free from material contamination, since material modes of nature came after God, God thus cannot be jealous, vengeful, angry, etc...to any person like in the Judeo-Christianity view, which is how the fear is generated. This is how God is truly equal to all.

Again this is the opposite of reality. Atheists say they do not know of a god, not because they think themselves smart but because they genuinely don’t know. Religionists, however, do think themselves smart because they believe they have discovered the source of ultimate knowledge, but of course they can’t say how or prove their claims.

You're right, the scriptures actually do not say that they will think themselves to be smart, like I stated. However, they do say that God appears to be non-existent to the athiest because their minds are covered by the external energy (material world), and cannot see past it.

That doesn’t follow, mainly because of my last point but also because even if atheist doesn’t mean they will follow a materialistic lifestyle. The search and love of material things is separate from beliefs or unbelief in gods.

I didn't say they follow a materialistic lifestyle, I said they're covered by the yoga-maya, meaning their minds can only see the material world to be true. Thus, they cannot find any material evidence of God, so they conclude God to be non-existent.

Agreed. And my point was that atheists tend to be among the wise and intelligent.

Well, scientists have still not yet determined exactly what intelligence is. However, scientists in this age are considered to be great maya scientists, meaning they're very skilled in material science.

Eventually, even material science and knowledge shall draw the same conclusions, that the material world is based upon the origin of existence, the absolute truth.

 

[Cris]

Vitalone,

Krishna clearly identifies himself as the absolute truth, origin of existence, and many other aspects of the ultimate observer. Also, Krishna describes many spiritual paths one can follow through devotion, knowledge, action, austerities, etc..., not just one path as you stated

There are only two paths – spiritual and otherwise. The creators of religions want you to follow their way and claim it as the best and will imply that if you do not then you are unwise and foolish. This is basic politics and largely reprehensible and is common to al major religions.

but in Hindu Philosophy, God is free from material contamination, since material modes of nature came after God, God thus cannot be jealous, vengeful, angry, etc...to any person like in the Judeo-Christianity view, which is how the fear is generated. This is how God is truly equal to all.

It is a nicer myth than the more barbaric concepts of the abrahamic religions.

.. However, they do say that God appears to be non-existent to the athiest because their minds are covered by the external energy (material world), and cannot see past it.

Again the implication is that the atheist is not as smart as the believer – it is still negative propaganda.

I said they're covered by the yoga-maya, meaning their minds can only see the material world to be true.

Same propaganda tactic as above.

Thus, they cannot find any material evidence of God, so they conclude God to be non-existent.

Or in practice the theist cannot demonstrate any evidence, whether supernatural or otherwise so the atheist quite reasonably withholds belief.

Well, scientists have still not yet determined exactly what intelligence is.

There are many things that we have yet to understand.

However, scientists in this age are considered to be great maya scientists, meaning they're very skilled in material science.

There is no other form of science since nothing other than the material has been detected in which case nothing else can be analyzed. But most scientists will readily acknowledge that they have only discovered a minute part of what there is to discover. This is the usual modesty of science as opposed to the arrogance of religions that state they have the final ultimate answers and that everyone else is foolish and unintelligent.

Eventually, even material science and knowledge shall draw the same conclusions, that the material world is based upon the origin of existence, the absolute truth.

And if it can be detected and observed then it will become part of science (i.e. knowledge).