WHY do we WANT to believe?

[wynn]

You would have to ask a person who has done that, but I'll speculate that how the father feels trumps the life of his daughter. That's the number one side-effect of religion that I don't like. Truth takes a backseat to how you feel.

And the people who commit honor killings probably think the same about you - that you are letting your own feelings trump the truth.
That they are acting in line with truth, and you are the weakling ruled by your feelings.


Your absolutist approach to the topic of truth vs. happiness proposes that you know the truth, and if anyone who thinks differently than you, does not know the truth and is merely indulging in their feelings.
Although I suppose you see no problem with that ...

I will guess it's identity. When something is a part of your identity (no matter how false the underlying premises), any attempt to change that will nearly always be perceived as an assault on your identity (which people often equate with their very lives). In other words, it's less painful to cause pain to others than to try to uproot your identity.

Same goes for you.

I don't even know what that phrase is supposed to mean, but faith seems easy. Just unconditionally accept whatever you want. There is not much 'will' to it in my opinion.

??
"Just unconditionally accept whatever you want."
That sounds like a nonsensical idea, not like something actionable.

 

[wynn]

People want to win the lottery, they want to be waited on hand and foot, they want to superstars, they want the perfect body, they want to change their new cars every year for the latest model, the list goes on and on and on. We live in a world where everything including happiness, and state of mind, appears to be acquired simply because we WANT them and God is no different.

For many people who consider themselves "theists" or that they "believe in God," their theism/faith/belief in God is primarily about them, and very little about God. Such people tend to view God has hardly anything more than a vending machine, a cosmic butler, who is there to help them to have more material wealth and ease in life. The more sophisticated of them "believe in God" because they believe that "belief in God" it makes them better people, more altruistic, more enthusiastic, etc. - in the end, it's all about them, them, them. They don't care about pleasing God, they care about pleasing themselves, under the guise of pleasing God and (some) others.

Clearly, such people are working out of inferior definitions of "God."

Serious people don't particularly WANT things, especially in this kiddy-pop kind of way, they accept who they are and what they have and as a result are happier and more content. Serious people understand that this culture is an escalator leading to anxiety and frustration (having bitten by the 'I WANT' already). It is the coming to terms of this realisation (at least in part) that makes lean towards spiritual philosophy, and in this way one develops the understanding which may or may not lead to belief in God.

Such an anxiety can also sometimes be observed in people who make a point in claiming they "believe in God," or "have faith in God," or whichever phrase they happen to use.

You have a lot to learn in this area.

Agreed.

 

[wynn]

Anyway, this lead to two interesting situations when I managed to corner my mother

You believe you have "cornered" your mother - and you are proud of that??!

 

[Sarkus]

Serious people don't particularly WANT things, especially in this kiddy-pop kind of way, they accept who they are and what they have and as a result are happier and more content. Serious people understand that this culture is an escalator leading to anxiety and frustration (having bitten by the 'I WANT' already). It is the coming to terms of this realisation (at least in part) that makes lean towards spiritual philosophy, and in this way one develops the understanding which may or may not lead to belief in God.

I disagree with the part I've bolded.
I'm not sure that coming to that realisation necessarily lends toward a spiritual philosophy beyond that which one already has or is already prone to.
I don't think that the realisation of which you speak makes anyone more or less spiritual.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Guys I have an exam tomorrow. I will reply in detail thereafter. Do carry on in the meantime.

 

[Balerion]

For many people who consider themselves "theists" or that they "believe in God," their theism/faith/belief in God is primarily about them, and very little about God. Such people tend to view God has hardly anything more than a vending machine, a cosmic butler, who is there to help them to have more material wealth and ease in life. The more sophisticated of them "believe in God" because they believe that "belief in God" it makes them better people, more altruistic, more enthusiastic, etc. - in the end, it's all about them, them, them. They don't care about pleasing God, they care about pleasing themselves, under the guise of pleasing God and (some) others.

Clearly, such people are working out of inferior definitions of "God."

A bunch of unsubstantiated speculation followed by a stunning non-sequitur. Classic wynn!

 

[Crunchy Cat]

And the people who commit honor killings probably think the same about you - that you are letting your own feelings trump the truth.
That they are acting in line with truth, and you are the weakling ruled by your feelings.

Again, I wouldn't know. I could speculate but to get a factual answer, you would have to ask them.

Your absolutist approach to the topic of truth vs. happiness proposes that you know the truth, and if anyone who thinks differently than you, does not know the truth and is merely indulging in their feelings.
Although I suppose you see no problem with that ...

Truth vs. happiness? People can and do value how they feel over truth; however, happiness is only one emotion. For some reason you keep on singling out happiness on the right side of that vs. statement. That is incorrect and a misrpresentation (which I am starting to think is deliberate because you keep on doing it). Also, I am 100% clear on exactly 'what' truth is but I make no claims that the knowledge I hold is all truth. Regardless, it's irrelevant. The point is that people can and do value how they feel over truth.

Same goes for you.

Why don't you also point out the sky is blue and use up some extra typing space captain obvious?

??
"Just unconditionally accept whatever you want."
That sounds like a nonsensical idea, not like something actionable.

Who said faith isn't non-sensical and must be actionable? Humans are not rational creatures. They are irrational and emotional creatures.

 

[wynn]

Truth vs. happiness? People can and do value how they feel over truth; however, happiness is only one emotion. For some reason you keep on singling out happiness on the right side of that vs. statement. That is incorrect and a misrpresentation (which I am starting to think is deliberate because you keep on doing it).

Also, I am 100% clear on exactly 'what' truth is but I make no claims that the knowledge I hold is all truth.

You are implicitly making precisely that claim, when you state things such as "People can and do value how they feel over truth."
How else could you possibly make that claim, unless you presume to know truth from falsity?

Regardless, it's irrelevant. The point is that people can and do value how they feel over truth.

Plase explain how it is even theoretically possible to value happiness/feelings (or anyhting else for that matter) over truth.

In what universe is that even possible?

Who said faith isn't non-sensical and must be actionable? Humans are not rational creatures. They are irrational and emotional creatures.

But you aren't? A human?

 

[Balerion]

Plase explain how it is even theoretically possible to value happiness/feelings (or anyhting else for that matter) over truth.

In what universe is that even possible?

You're not really this obtuse, wynn. What is delusion if not the insistence upon a preferred reality over actual reality? The wife or girlfriend who says her abusive beau will change, the parents who swear up and down that their child is perfect...these are classic examples of people believing what feels good instead of what's true.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

You are implicitly making precisely that claim, when you state things such as "People can and do value how they feel over truth."
How else could you possibly make that claim, unless you presume to know truth from falsity?

Actually I have a brain and with that comes the potential ability to separate truth from garbage.

Plase explain how it is even theoretically possible to value happiness/feelings (or anyhting else for that matter) over truth.

In what universe is that even possible?

Balerion's response to this was good. You should read it.

But you aren't? A human?

You must have some very awkward way of processing information. For example, if I talk about Republicans, it doesn't mean that I am not one.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You're not really this obtuse, wynn. What is delusion if not the insistence upon a preferred reality over actual reality? The wife or girlfriend who says her abusive beau will change, the parents who swear up and down that their child is perfect...these are classic examples of people believing what feels good instead of what's true.

Explain how you know these people ''value'' these states of mind of over what you seem to think the truth of the matter is.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

CrunchCat,

Also, I am 100% clear on exactly 'what' truth is but I make no claims that the knowledge I hold is all truth.

What is truth?
And is the knowledge you hold truth, or not?

jan.

 

[Balerion]

Explain how you know these people ''value'' these states of mind of over what you seem to think the truth of the matter is.

jan.

I suppose this is going to become a semantics argument now where you interject some asinine personal definition of "value?" I was going to ask why Wynn hadn't replied, but now I can see: she's waiting to see which dishonest tack you take before jumping on your coattails.

How about you just make your point. Mine was self-explanatory, so your question serves no other purpose than to set up your own introduction of a new and foolish (read: incorrect) definition of a term. By all means, introduce it so we can move on.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

CrunchCat,
What is truth?

Truth is when an idea in your mind matches reality.

And is the knowledge you hold truth, or not?

There must be a reading comprehension issue there as the very quote you responded to said: "...but I make no claims that the knowledge I hold is all truth."

 

[Jan Ardena]

I suppose this is going to become a semantics argument now where you interject some asinine personal definition of "value?" I was going to ask why Wynn hadn't replied, but now I can see: she's waiting to see which dishonest tack you take before jumping on your coattails.

How about you just make your point. Mine was self-explanatory, so your question serves no other purpose than to set up your own introduction of a new and foolish (read: incorrect) definition of a term. By all means, introduce it so we can move on.

It doesn't have to be ''semantics argument'' providing you don't overstep the actual meaning of the word.

You say your point was ''self explanatory'' so let's see.

You're not really this obtuse, wynn. What is delusion if not the insistence upon a preferred reality over actual reality? The wife or girlfriend who says her abusive beau will change, the parents who swear up and down that their child is perfect...these are classic examples of people believing what feels good instead of what's true.

My question was...

Explain how you know these people ''value'' these states of mind of over what you seem to think the truth of the matter is.

Why is a wife or girlfriend who believes her abusive beau will change, delusional? There may be other factors involved, like fear, for example. Maybe belief that he will change is the only option she may have. So why is that delusional?


jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Truth is when an idea in your mind matches reality.
There must be a reading comprehension issue there as the very quote you responded to said: "...but I make no claims that the knowledge I hold is all truth."

You said you're 100% clear on ''exactly'' what truth is. Then you say ''Truth is when an idea in your mind ''matches reality''. So what is reality?
If you are clear on what truth is, to that degree, I expect a better, more detailed explanation than your current one.

What do you mean by ''...but I make no claims that the knowledge I hold is all truth''?
It seems a little vague to me, not to mention contradictory.

jan.

 

[Balerion]

It doesn't have to be ''semantics argument'' providing you don't overstep the actual meaning of the word.

Given your history, I'm expecting you to argue that the "actual definition of the word" is something absurd, sort of like how your definition of the word "theism" was essentially a riff on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Why is a wife or girlfriend who believes her abusive beau will change, delusional? There may be other factors involved, like fear, for example. Maybe belief that he will change is the only option she may have. So why is that delusional?

This is a false dichotomy. Fear is a perfectly normal reason to delude oneself. An abuse victim might fear the abuser's wrath if they were to leave or call the authorities, so they tell themselves that the person will change, even though there's nothing to suggest they will, and plenty to suggest they won't. Or they might fear being on their own, and delude themselves that they're better off in this situation. Of course, I don't buy for a second your claim that an abuse victim "has no other option." That's ridiculous. There are always options.

And of course that's just one example. What about the other one I provided? The parents who refuse to accept their child for who he or she really is? How many parents believe their kid is the best kid in the world, in spite of mounds of evidence to the contrary? Why do you think that is, jan?

Let me guess: you're going to assert that no parent "really" believes that. Somewhere, I hear bagpipes playing...

 

[Crunchy Cat]

You said you're 100% clear on ''exactly'' what truth is. Then you say ''Truth is when an idea in your mind ''matches reality''. So what is reality?

What is (independent of anyone's thoughts and feelings).

If you are clear on what truth is, to that degree, I expect a better, more detailed explanation than your current one.

There are some problems with your expectation. The first is that you think I should meet your expectation. Say this with me three times... "my expectations are my problem and nobody elses.". The second is that you believe there is a more detailed technical definition of truth and that you are able to comprehend it. While there might be a more technical definition of truth, I have no confidence that you have the cognitive ability to comprehend it.

What do you mean by ''...but I make no claims that the knowledge I hold is all truth''?
It seems a little vague to me, not to mention contradictory.

jan.

I'll dumb it down. Let's say that throughout my life I have attained 3 pieces of knowledge. My statement means that I have not necessarily reviewed each of those 3 pieces of knowledge to see if they match reality.

 

[Balerion]

CrunchCat,



What is truth?
And is the knowledge you hold truth, or not?

jan.

You're trying to obfuscate the matter so you can disagree without actually raising a point of your own. The point being made by CC is that people often choose to believe what makes them feel better without reference to the truth. What constitutes truth is irrelevant to the discussion, as we can all agree that truth isn't simply whatever one wants it to be.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

You're trying to obfuscate the matter so you can disagree without actually raising a point of your own. The point being made by CC is that people often choose to believe what makes them feel better without reference to the truth. What constitutes truth is irrelevant to the discussion, as we can all agree that truth isn't simply whatever one wants it to be.

Her tactic is one that is sometimes used by a person whom is trying to protect *something* from scrutiny. The question then becomes, what idea was the conversation approaching that Jan wants to protect?