Why do christians reject John Smith?

As a Mormon who despises apologetics, I never try to defend my personal and apparently irrational beliefs. I do, however, have to point out the irony of Biblicists who belittle the beliefs of other Biblicists. (I use the word "Biblicist" in place of "Christian" for those who would deny me that label.) An occasional look in the mirror might be illuminating.

Now, if any irreligious folks want to mock the Mormon church, I'll laugh along with them. It really does look funny from the outside, but not any funnier than most Christian sects.
 
They do not believe in God but gods so they contradict the apostle's creed. The nicene creed is where they really contradict. Most protestant's believe in both creeds as long as catholic church is interpreted as the universal church.

I'm sorry but I'm not following how the quote from Isaiah is relevant. As for where you said they were evil, you said the "distort, lie, and cover up". THose are pretty strong words, especially in the context you put them. The fact that you put "lie" in there shows that you meant they intentionally misrepresent things. If you're uncomfortable with the accusation, then apologize and retract it, but don't go pretending you didn't make it. For my part I'll happily admit that the leap from "distort, lie, and cover up" to "evil bastards" was entirely my own.
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Ok I retract calling them "liars" since many lie, but few are professionals. I'm well aware that there are many whom have been decieved unknowingly. I believe that the head of the mormon church along with a few others are decieving people on purpose. When you call yourself a teacher, you have to be sure of yourself. That is why nothing I say should be taken as truth unless it's fully backed up by yourself, so that I do not end up lying. I've found that people lie because of ignorance. But to be a valid excuse this cannot be the false ignorance of over confidence. Anyways the Isaiah verse is important since he prophesies the Messiah.

Isaiah 43:10-12
"You are my witness, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen To know and believe in me and understand that it is I. Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be non. It is I, I the LORD; there is no savior but me. It is I who foretold, I who saved; I made it known, not any strange god among you; You are my witnesses, says the LORD. I am God, yes, from eternity I am He; There is none who can deliver from my hand: who can countermand what I do? Thus says the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: For your sakes I send to Babylon; I will lower all the bars, and the Chaldeans shall cry out in lamentation. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King."

Compare with
John 13
12
So when he had washed their feet (and) put his garments back on and reclined at table again, he said to them, "Do you realize what I have done for you?
13
You call me 'teacher' and 'master,' and rightly so, for indeed I am.
14
If I, therefore, the master and teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash one another's feet.
15
I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do.
16
Amen, amen, I say to you, no slave is greater than his master nor any messenger 7 greater than the one who sent him.
17
If you understand this, blessed are you if you do it.
18
I am not speaking of all of you. I know those whom I have chosen. But so that the scripture might be fulfilled, 'The one who ate my food has raised his heel against me.'
19
From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM.
20
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me."

And
John 6:45
"It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.'"

John 6:69
"We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?""
The Holy One refers to Isaiah
 
There's nothing in anything you've quoted that mormons would have a problem with. You do have a rather idiosyncratic reading that one cannot believe in god if one does so in a way that disagrees with you. It's particularly puzzling to me that you say.
They do not believe in God but gods
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Are you insisting that because they don't buy the mediaeval doctrine of the trinity that they can't be considered christian? That doctrine was controversial when it started, more than a few were killed in order to get it accepted as standard.

Keep in mind that mormons accept every piece of scripture that you've quoted. They interpret some of them a bit differently than you do, but if we're going to insist on unity of biblical interpretation as a necessary condition for being christian, then precious few sects will qualify.

It occurs to me that perhaps you don't understand mormon doctrine very well. But beyond that, you have yet to explain why all this is necessary to being a christian. I understand that you think mormons aren't monotheistic. But I don't understand why you think monotheism is essential to christianity.

The apostles creed merely stipulates that you have to believe in
God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord
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It doesn't say you can't believe in other gods, and it certainly doeesn't say that you have to believe god the father and jesus his son are the same person. In fact a straightforward reading of the creed would lead one to think you should believe in two separate beings. Certainly that's how the grammar works. So if you want to take the apostle's creed as stating a requirement for monotheism, then it is you who are doing the deliberate distortion. Unless of course your reference to the apostle's creed was just a feint to throw off the uninitiated. Is there some other reason you think christians have to be monotheists? Because that one just doesn't even come close.
 
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Are you insisting that because they don't buy the mediaeval doctrine of the trinity that they can't be considered christian? That doctrine was controversial when it started, more than a few were killed in order to get it accepted as standard.
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Yes. However mormons are not just un-christian but polythiest. We have to draw the line somewhere.

Keep in mind that mormons accept every piece of scripture that you've quoted. They interpret some of them a bit differently than you do, but if we're going to insist on unity of biblical interpretation as a necessary condition for being christian, then precious few sects will qualify.
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I do not see any other way to interpret it. "Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be none."
Can you interpret this any other way but to conclude that there are no other gods but God?

It occurs to me that perhaps you don't understand mormon doctrine very well. But beyond that, you have yet to explain why all this is necessary to being a christian. I understand that you think mormons aren't monotheistic. But I don't understand why you think monotheism is essential to christianity.
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Look at Islam. Allah is closer to the Trinity than the mormon gods. And no I do understand this mormon doctrin issue perfectly as I have spoken with an elder. I did not give him the verses from Isaiah but they would not hear any of the sort. It is like he was brainwashed. Simple verses such as "You shall not fashion any gods before me". Ok. So that means that we cannot fashion ourselves into god right? No, it's God himself who will make you into a god... it goes on and on.

I'm also dismayed. I do not wish to mock anyone. Christ was mocked, but this is a serious matter.
 
oh dear this thread is fullfilling my hopes, arguments of hate being used in place of logic because the issue is totaly subjective. In fact it might be of some subjective nature not yet classified by logicians... perhaps super subjective is what it should be called, some kind of higher subjective plain where fact is just an odd assortment of letters.

although you probably see this discussion as pivitol an intense, perhaps getting to the essence of something important... which depresses me.

im firmly and pretty much unmovably of the opinion that mormons are christians because they say they are, and because they have all the same trapings as any other denomination. All this stuff about them worshiping multiple gods, its bunk, they dont any more than any other denomination worshiping the trinity is worshiping multiple gods. But it makes good rhetoric for idiots who want to believe that there is a good reason thier religion is right VS mormonism.
 
They do not worship more than one God. The believe in more than one god though.

m firmly and pretty much unmovably of the opinion that mormons are christians because they say they are, and because they have all the same trapings as any other denomination. All this stuff about them worshiping multiple gods, its bunk, they dont any more than any other denomination worshiping the trinity is worshiping multiple gods. But it makes good rhetoric for idiots who want to believe that there is a good reason thier religion is right VS mormonism.
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What they say shouldn't matter. There are people who say they are god. Does that mean that they are?
 
OK. I'm going to change my mind...
The definition of a christian is a deciple of christ. And how do you know if someone is an deciple of Christ. If they follow John 13:33 "My children, I will be with you only a little while longer. You will look for me, and as I told the Jews, 'Where I go you cannot come,' so now I say it to you. I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love on another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

I still question how he can call us children if he's not one with the Father?
 
Originally posted by okinrus
What they say shouldn't matter. There are people who say they are god. Does that mean that they are?
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No it doesn't mean that they are gods, but it does mean that they are theists. The fact that mormons claim a belief in christ as god doesn't mean that christ is god, but it does seem to make a prima facie case for mormons being christian.

Thus far you still haven't provided an answer to why they shouldn't be. You've cited some scriptures which you interpret differently than they do, and you've cited the apostle's creed which doesn't say anything at all like what you say it does.

It now seems that on your view, christians have to accept the mediaeval doctrine of the trinity. Of course, most so called christian churches don't accept trinitarianism in that sense. And if you weaken the sense, then mormons get to be trinitarians too. Oh, and if you don't weaken it, then you have to say that the catholic church has been intermittently not christian as it has gone back and forth accepting the doctrine.

So what do you gain by saying that mormons aren't christians? Why not make the obvious move of saying that a christian is someone who believes in the divinity of christ? Mormons get to be christians, and you get to say that they are heretics. Presumably you don't agree with all christian churches, why not just add one more to the list of christian churches you think are wrong rather than single mormons out as not even christian?

*Edit* I'm a slow typer, okinrus' latest reply wasn't there when I started.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
I still question how he can call us children if he's not one with the Father?
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My son's daycare teacher refers to the entire class as "her kids". Do you think she's seriously claiming to be their mother? It's a term of endearment. It's very common in many cultures. And it's especially common with teachers. I even use it with my students, and they aren't even children. Or are you proposing that every word of the Bible is strictly literal?
 
This was supposed to be a joke.
Mark 3:35 "whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother"
 
Originally posted by okinrus
This was supposed to be a joke.
Mark 3:35 "whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother"
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My bad. Once again my sense of humor has retired before me. I guess I should go join it in bed.

cheers
 
Re: ...

Originally posted by answers
Christianity is the truth, mormonism is a cult!!!!!!!
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"A cult is a religion with no political power." - Tom Wolfe
 
originally posted by okinrus
Their own beliefs contradict themselves
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priceless, this is exactly the same situation your in if you believe in christianity (well, perhaps not beliefs, but if beliefs are whats in the bible and you believe in the bible then it is most definately the same situation).
 
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