Why do christians believe that a fetus is a person?

[Quigly]

way to shred your way off topic.

Religion has existed as long as man has in one form or another. Get over it. It will always exist.

 

[Cris]

Lawdog,

God creates the human soul from nothing at the moment of conception.

What happens then when the fertilized egg later splits and two identical twins are the result? Which twin receives the soul? The split usually occurs within the first 14 days of embryo development.

If you say that one twin does not have a soul then how could that person live without a soul? And what are the implications for a person without a soul?

If you say that another soul is created then we can conclude that ensoulment does not have to occur at conception, and your assertion that it does would be inaccurate or incorrect.

If souls do not have to occur at conception then what is to say that any souls are created at conception but are created when the fetus is formed, for example?

Does a soul have gender? Gender is determined later in development primarily due to hormones but with a strong genetic tendency. Since gender is unknown at conception we must conclude that souls cannot have gender, correct?

What are the properties and characteristics of a soul created at conception? Note that it will not have memory or ability to remember, it will not be self-aware (that occurs many months after birth), and it will not be able to think or experiences emotions (a brain is needed for these activities). What then is the purpose and role of a soul?

If a soul were to exist how would it communicate and interact with a physical body, or does it?

On the issue that 50% of fertilized eggs don’t progress any further, you state -

They are in the hands of the loving God. Somehow they were so pleasing to our Lord that he spared them the evils of this terrestrial life.

Does this mean that all the souls that are added to surviving eggs were not pleasing to the lord that he felt they must be punished by allowing them to survive in this evil world?

If God is the designer and creator of souls why would he make some pleasing and others not pleasing? Does that mean he makes mistakes or that he is still practicing this technique?

 

[Nasor]

Christians believe a fetus is human because the bible says so. David makes this clear.

How so? The only thing I'm aware of in David that would relate is the line "before you formed in the womb I knew you". But this does not seem like evidence that a embryo should be considered a person. After all, it says before you formed, not "from when you first started forming". And anyway, as you yourself said, god would have known about David from the beginning of time - long before he was concieved.

Besides that it can be logically deduced for a person that believes in God: If God is omnipotent then He knew who I was before I was born. He also knew how my whole life would unfold before I was born. Today, He knows how my life will end. All are quite logical conclusions based on the assumption that God exists.

Yeah, but god also knew all about you before the sperm joined with the egg.

 

[Nasor]

I believe the argument stems from recognizing a person's individual right to live, even if they aren't "recognizably human".

I'm asking why christians believe that this right to live starts when an embryo forms, rather than at some earlier or later time. It seems arbitrary to me.

 

[Jenyar]

So the formation is logical in the sense of how they persue their illusion. But since it is an illusion it is not logical. This means that the methods employed for Astrology are logical, but does not mean the belief in Astrology is logical.

Yes. Isn't that what I said about logic? It can be applied to any system.

Interesting that you call this invisible entity a 'he'. Plus, in what way is he detectable? Santa clause is therefor detectable if I simply believe in him.

"He" is as good for the purpose of explanation as any other pronoun.

The American Santa is a fantasy, just like the hybrid Jack Frost-version he originates from. The person he is based on in many European countries isn't. Many countries even have a feast day commemorating his death (December 6). He may just be dry bones now, but that's enough to make him real and, at some point in time, detectable. If you don't want to make the distinction in your arguments, just be aware that it's a strawman that is perhaps best kept to American audiences.

Interesting again - I am not aware of a single religious person on here that accepts the evidence for evolution. Saying that evolution depends on dry bones is a bit like saying Einstein relied on a few equations.

There's plenty of evidence, and a number of ways to interpret it - one of them is evolution, as you probably have it in mind. Dinosaur bones would be interpreted differently depending on where you are in history, as I'm sure you know, and it's not because the bones were different. The theory of punctuated equilibrium was generally accepted only recently, for instance.

But since it's an analogy, I don't quite understand why you find it so important to point out the relative weights of words. In relation to the wide field of mathematics, Einstein did often rely on a few equations - the necessary ones. And compared to life on this planet, dry bones are dry bones, no matter what you make of them. Calling them "fossils" doesn't change what they look like.

Also interesting that religious moderates/apologists like yourself seem to always try to compare theists and atheists using vague analogies. Whilst the fundamentalists wants nothing to do with atheists, moderates seem to want to be like atheists by trying to steal their use of rational logic... while of course failing, like you have done. Your attempt to parallel organised religion and science was laughably pathetic.

Steal your logic? Are you listening to yourself?

Communication depends on language, and meaning can get lost between one language and another, even between different paradigms within a language. Therefore any attempt to make oneself understood involves finding common ground and equivalent meanings. You may feel uncomfortable about it, but theists and atheists are all people.

 

[Jenyar]

I'm asking why christians believe that this right to live starts when an embryo forms, rather than at some earlier or later time. It seems arbitrary to me.

Like I said, that's when a life might for first time be recognized as an individual.

 

[Lawdog]

Lawdog,

What happens then when the fertilized egg later splits and two identical twins are the result? Which twin receives the soul? The split usually occurs within the first 14 days of embryo development.

good question. remember, the soul is the life force. in a fetus, the rational soul is not yet developed, it still exists only in potential, as the leaves exist only in potential in an acorn. same goes with the sensitive soul, which develops in the fetus. if a split occurs in the physical/vegitative soul at an early stage, than there is no problem. God creates a second vegitative soul with sensitive and rational potential.

just like the leaves that recieve light in a tree, the rational soul recieves the light of God. Sin has darkened much of the leaf.

If you say that another soul is created then we can conclude that ensoulment does not have to occur at conception, and your assertion that it does would be inaccurate or incorrect.

true, ensoulment does not have to occur at conception. ensoulment occurs in at conception as a general rule, but God the Creator is not bound to it, just as an artist painting in oils is not bound to stick to his usual methods.

Does a soul have gender? Gender is determined later in development primarily due to hormones but with a strong genetic tendency. Since gender is unknown at conception we must conclude that souls cannot have gender, correct?

Gender makes itself evident when the sensitive soul develops in the fetus. otherwise it is in the DNA, as you of course know.

What are the properties and characteristics of a soul created at conception? Note that it will not have memory or ability to remember, it will not be self-aware (that occurs many months after birth), and it will not be able to think or experiences emotions (a brain is needed for these activities). What then is the purpose and role of a soul?

Memory is part of the sensitive soul, but its operation in a human can be governed by the rational and invisible powers of the soul, and it can represent from logical principles and mathematic axioms. It can work in tandem with a spirit. That means that memory has a spiritual component, since it can be governed by a spirit: ie, an invisible reasoning power. If Memory has a spiritual receptor, it must somehow be linked to the invisible, indivisible, indestructable soul.

This soul is eternal and cannot be destroyed, even by God. the rational aspect of the soul is closely tied to its eternal being and God. perhaps reason exists in potentia in a fetus.

only God has the right to destroy what he has planted, no matter how insignifigant it may seem to humans.

If a soul were to exist how would it communicate and interact with a physical body, or does it?

the soul is the life source. it is the power that is able to recieve the spirit of God. all life is from God. the soul is the being that God upholds. The body is an expression of this much greater thing.

Does this mean that all the souls that are added to surviving eggs were not pleasing to the lord that he felt they must be punished by allowing them to survive in this evil world?

No, everything from God is a gift, even chastizement. Even mutated babies.

 

[Provita]

So upon the millions of fetuses aborted... the billions of zygotes and fetuses naturally aborted from the mother's body also ahve a soul. The Church, as I have recently read, unless it was a fake, stated that all unbaptized aborted babies go to a higher level of purgatory, but are not granted Heaven.

Well thats not fair...

 

[KennyJC]

Yes. Isn't that what I said about logic? It can be applied to any system.

Since your version of 'logic' is based upon a superstitious concept, you have contradicted yourself:

Superstition: An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.

"He" is as good for the purpose of explanation as any other pronoun.

Or it is just a guess. The Bible is one huge guess, for example.

The American Santa is a fantasy, just like the hybrid Jack Frost-version he originates from. The person he is based on in many European countries isn't. Many countries even have a feast day commemorating his death (December 6). He may just be dry bones now, but that's enough to make him real and, at some point in time, detectable. If you don't want to make the distinction in your arguments, just be aware that it's a strawman that is perhaps best kept to American audiences.

I believe in the Santa with the reindeer that delivers presents to all of the children in the world. This is far more likely than your God in heaven as at least we know children, reindeer, presents and fat old jolly men exist.

There's plenty of evidence, and a number of ways to interpret it - one of them is evolution, as you probably have it in mind. Dinosaur bones would be interpreted differently depending on where you are in history, as I'm sure you know, and it's not because the bones were different. The theory of punctuated equilibrium was generally accepted only recently, for instance.

So pray tell... What other explanation (based on evidence) contradicts that of life evolving based on the passage of time and environmental pressures?

 

[Lawdog]

So upon the millions of fetuses aborted... the billions of zygotes and fetuses naturally aborted from the mother's body also ahve a soul. The Church, as I have recently read, unless it was a fake, stated that all unbaptized aborted babies go to a higher level of purgatory, but are not granted Heaven.

Well thats not fair...

fair? who ever said anything about fair? Reality is not fair. The Devil plays dirty poker. The Church forbids the killing of fetus for several reasons, one being that we are uncertain as to what happens to their souls.

 

[Nobody Special]

I’ve always wondered about this. There seems to be no evidence for it one way or the other in the Bible.

Wrong. The Bible evidence you're looking for is Genesis 2:7. That's why the ancient astrologers based their charts on the moment the person took their first breath.