Why did Gospel writers care so little for history?

[nova900]

" NDE's " hardly qualify as evidence for anything. Please provide evidence to support/justify your "personal belief" that the writers of the NT are "unscrupulous people"...

As opposed to taking some unknown ancient authors version of God I would say NDEs' are substantially more reliable.There are recognizable patterns and themes throughout them from people from all walks of life and religous as well as non religous backrounds. You may have just taken your criticism of them from a Christian fundamentalist website. Take some time and look into it a little more and then decide.
I've had my say on this as I don't want to change the direction of the OP.

How is this an example of the NT demonizing other belief systems? According to the text, who's doing the demonizing? Obviously the text indicates it is the demons themselves, perpetrating this upon the hapless heathen who sacrifice offerings to them. The readers are being informed/warned concerning such behavior so as to not suffer the same fate. Consider that demonization always originates with an inherently evil source. The Source of the entire Bible, both OT and NT, is God. Therefore, it is impossible for either the OT or NT to demonize anything or anyone.

Consider also Jesus' reasoning/reply when He was accused of casting out demons by the prince of demons...you are greatly mistaken regarding your notion of the NT demonizing other belief systems.

This is the response I expected. If you can't see this demonizing effect than you probably never will.
Of all the sunday morning religous programs,which group do you think spends considerable time telling their congregation that other beliefs are false religions..yep, you guessed it..fundamentalist Christians.
You are just assuming these people mentioned in the bible are offering tributes to demons because the authors want you to believe such and that Yahweh is the "one true God" and his followers are righteous.Those people believed their Gods/Goddesses were just as valid as Yahweh ..who as history indicates btw was originally part of a pantheon of Gods worshipped by the Cannanites.

 

[Myles]

Wonderful.



You've already been "offered" both within you and without you all the evidence you're going to get--provided/offered you by the Author of the Bible Himself.

That answer says nothing . I am not aware of having been offered anything. You, no doubt , believe otherwise.

How can you be certain that god iexists, let alone that he is the author of the bible ? Please avoid circularity in your answer.

 

[Myles]

" NDE's " hardly qualify as evidence for anything. Please provide evidence to support/justify your "personal belief" that the writers of the NT are "unscrupulous people"...



How is this an example of the NT demonizing other belief systems? According to the text, who's doing the demonizing? Obviously the text indicates it is the demons themselves, perpetrating this upon the hapless heathen who sacrifice offerings to them. The readers are being informed/warned concerning such behavior so as to not suffer the same fate. Consider that demonization always originates with an inherently evil source. The Source of the entire Bible, both OT and NT, is God. Therefore, it is impossible for either the OT or NT to demonize anything or anyone.

I seem to remember that for centuries Christians demonized the Jews for killing Jesus. This is an odd position to adopt because if Jesus had not been put to death, humanity would not have been redeemed on the cross.

 

[Photizo]

As opposed to taking some unknown ancient authors version of God I would say NDEs' are substantially more reliable...

You've had ample opportunity to provide evidence to support/justify your "personal belief" that the writers of the NT are "unscrupulous people"....you've provided nothing but irrelevant ramblings.

This is the response I expected.

That my response was expected by you says more about you than it does me...honestly, yours was not the response I expected from you. Regardless, you raised the issue of the New Testament, specifically, "the way it (the NT) attempts to demonize other belief systems". When asked to cite chapter and verse to support this you chose 1 Cor. 10:20! My rejoinder provided a clear explanation to the contrary utilizing the very 'proof text' you cited to support your allegation.

Of all the sunday morning religous programs,which group do you think spends considerable time telling their congregation that other beliefs are false religions..yep, you guessed it..fundamentalist Christians...

Not only is this patently false, but it's totally, completely, irrelevant. All you've done is taken the opportunity to ramble on aimlessly about your unwarranted prejudices. Frankly, I'm disappointed...Alas, you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.

 

[Photizo]

I seem to remember that for centuries Christians demonized the Jews for killing Jesus. This is an odd position to adopt because if Jesus had not been put to death, humanity would not have been redeemed on the cross.

Christians cannot demonize anyone...what's odd to me is your position i.e. despite your knowledge/understanding, you remain unrepentant. That, to me, is odd.

 

[Revolvr]

The manger story is quite fanciful. Since when do stars guide followers to exact geographic points? Since when do babies laying in a manger get gifts from wise men? You would think the wise men aghast at the surrounding of the child would have put him up in a hotel. With enough money, you can buy anything. Do you really think Herod would so fear a baby of a commoner, that he would put it to death? The fleeing to Eygpt story was concocted to make Jesus appear like Moses. Even Jesus' mother is given the same name as Moses' mother, i.e. Mary or Meriam. And let's not forget, the virgin birth. Since when does God inseminate women? This is a story to make God look like Zeus, and Jesus look like Hercules. True, I can't absolutely exclude the possibility that these things really happened. However, the Gospels weren't written by the Apostles, were they? Where did the Gospel writers get their information? Indeed, they were written after the Apostles were dead. Who could contradict them?

You say one reason the story is false is because rich wise men would not have met them, then left them, in the manger. Yes?

Think carefully about my next question. Could any of your beliefs be based on false information? Your statement is false; these wise men never met the family at the manger. It just isn’t in the Bible. So why did you say it?

Don’t get me wrong; I don’t believe you lied. So where did you get this idea? Something you uncritically read or were told perhaps? Could there be other, more complex ideas you have believed that are also based on false information? The analysis of Jesus’ resurrection for example requires critical investigation many different sources. If you have such a simple thing wrong, quite possibly all of your other beliefs are based on bad data. Bad sources. And as you know: garbage in, garbage out. You state a few other beliefs without rationale. It smacks of uncritical biased thinking.

Really folks something like a belief in God should be taken more seriously. After all, if your right, someone like me goes through life trying to behave righteously. Then I die. But if Christians are right, well it’s your eternity.

 

[nova900]

You've had ample opportunity to provide evidence to support/justify your "personal belief" that the writers of the NT are "unscrupulous people"....you've provided nothing but irrelevant ramblings.

What other source would you like??
Another book full or rewritten text by largely unknown authors who all claim to know the mind of God?
NDE's are about as close as we get to actual death so if you feel they are all nonsense or irrelevent ramblings..that's your call.
Other than ancients texts,pychic phemonae and NDE's ALL we are left with is peoples personal beliefs based on their own intuition.
Perhaps this will suffice...
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html

From reading material such as this and many NDEs its my belief that yes, Man did indeed change concepts of God, how to approach God, the afterlife and mold it to his needs..hence my belief that unscupolous people used religion and God as an excuse to control the masses.

Not only is this patently false, but it's totally, completely, irrelevant. All you've done is taken the opportunity to ramble on aimlessly about your unwarranted prejudices. Frankly, I'm disappointed...Alas, you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.

Hardly irrelevant considering the attitude of these ministers and preachers is drawn from some source.The source?..the Bible.
Yes, it's false to you because your mindset is very rigid.
My prejudices?? Hah..laughable considering the often bigoted and arrogant tone of your posts.
You see, even thou I don't believe in all the Bibles' idealogy and dogma I still believe it has a lot of good content and it can be a valid path to God as there are many.

 

[Photizo]

What other source would you like??
Another book full or rewritten text by largely unknown authors who all claim to know the mind of God?
NDE's are about as close as we get to actual death so if you feel they are all nonsense or irrelevent ramblings..that's your call.
Other than ancients texts,pychic phemonae and NDE's ALL we are left with is peoples personal beliefs based on their own intuition.
Perhaps this will suffice...
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html

From reading material such as this and many NDEs its my belief that yes, Man did indeed change concepts of God, how to approach God, the afterlife and mold it to his needs..hence my belief that unscupolous people used religion and God as an excuse to control the masses.




Yes, it's false to you because your mindset is very rigid.
My prejudices?? Hah..laughable considering the often bigoted and arrogant tone of your posts.
You see, even thou I don't believe in all the Bibles' idealogy and dogma I still believe it has a lot of good content and it can be a valid path to God as there are many.

Yes, yes...Friendly reminder--->"I've had my say on this as I don't want to change the direction of the OP."

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; [and your] Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

 

[nova900]

Yes, yes...Friendly reminder--->"I've had my say on this as I don't want to change the direction of the OP."

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; [and your] Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

I had to get one more NDE reference in there since you insisted on an external source.
Yes, I'll conclude by saying we agree to disagree here.

 

[Why?]

"2:9. Who having heard the king, went their way; and behold the star which they had seen in the East, went before them, until it came and stood over where the child was" Now, show me any star that has the ability to pinpoint an exact geographic location on Earth, such as a house? As far as the wise men not technically being in the manger - but in a house, o.k. you got me. However, no one is perfect - even you I suspect.

 

[Myles]

Christians cannot demonize anyone...what's odd to me is your position i.e. despite your knowledge/understanding, you remain unrepentant. That, to me, is odd.

I was using demonize in its colloquial sense, as I do not believe in demons.
Let's play it your way and change demonize to villify.


Now as the Jews were part of God's plan, the chosen people no less, why were they villified for their role. Had they not acted as they did, redemption would not have been possible. Don't you find anything strange in that ?

A short time ago the Pope apologized to the Jews. Do all Christians agree with this ? I understand it's ok to blame the Romans.

 

[Myles]

"2:9. Who having heard the king, went their way; and behold the star which they had seen in the East, went before them, until it came and stood over where the child was" Now, show me any star that has the ability to pinpoint an exact geographic location on Earth, such as a house? As far as the wise men not technically being in the manger - but in a house, o.k. you got me. However, no one is perfect - even you I suspect.

If one star stands still they all will. The earth will have stopped rotating on its axis.There will be widespread confusion as millions of geographical locations are pinpointed. Perhaps that's why the men were called wise; they knew how to choose the right spot.

 

[Revolvr]

"2:9. Who having heard the king, went their way; and behold the star which they had seen in the East, went before them, until it came and stood over where the child was" Now, show me any star that has the ability to pinpoint an exact geographic location on Earth, such as a house? As far as the wise men not technically being in the manger - but in a house, o.k. you got me. However, no one is perfect - even you I suspect.

Yes it was a small detail, but it contributed to a large conclusion. As they say, the devil is in the details!

Your OP was about the historical accuracy. Again let’s separate the historical facts from the miraculous theology. No facts in the NT have been proven false by archaeological findings or other extra-Biblical sources as yet.

Let’s look at Herod. The Bible says little about him. Most that we know comes from Archaeology. He built a number of structures, and his tomb has been found so we know quite a lot about “Herod the Great”.

We know that he was a cruel paranoid tyrant. For example, he murdered his own family! So that he might fear a child is not at all outside the realm of probability.

For centuries, atheists used to claim the story of the movement from Nazareth to Bethlehem was contrived as you say since there was no secular record of such a Roman census or that people had to return to their home cities. They don’t generally claim this any more. Why?

Recent discoveries reveal that the Romans did have a regular enrollment of taxpayers and held a formal census every 14 years, beginning with the reign of Caesar Augustus. An inscription and other archaeological evidence reveal that Quirinius was indeed "governing" Syria around 7 BC. A papyrus discovered in Egypt generally discusses the system of Roman taxation, declaring the following: "Because of the approaching census it is necessary that all those residing for any cause away from their home should at once prepare to return to their own governments in order that they may complete the family registration of the enrollment..."

You also claim without evidence the Gospels were not written by the Apostles. Why? Scholars of antiquity, regardless of their religious beliefs, generally treat these as authentic. The only people who do not are the hyper-skeptic anti-Christian types like Murdock.

I do not have “blind faith” in the Gospels. I have reviewed the evidence, pro and con and I conclude the historical Jesus is real beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[SkinWalker]

An inscription and other archaeological evidence reveal that Quirinius was indeed "governing" Syria around 7 BC. A papyrus discovered in Egypt generally discusses the system of Roman taxation, declaring the following: "Because of the approaching census it is necessary that all those residing for any cause away from their home should at once prepare to return to their own governments in order that they may complete the family registration of the enrollment..."

As an archaeologist, I'd be interested in a citation that describes these epigraphical artifacts.

 

[Why?]

I also believe in the historical Jesus. My point is that the Gospels contradict themselves in certain way, which means something's got to be wrong. Also, certain stories are obviously made up to fulfill prophesy. King Herod, of course, would fear a child of royal descent in his own House, as that child might usurp him. For example, August had Ceasarion killed at the age of 17. But, it's nonsense to believe Herod would fear a child a common birth. The fact that the Roman had censuses does not mean Jesus went on a pilgramage to Bethlehem. The Gospel writers may very well have been aware of censuses, and used it as a literary convenience to explain why Jesus of Nazareth would come from Bethlehem.

 

[Photizo]

The fact that the Roman had censuses does not mean Jesus went on a pilgramage to Bethlehem. The Gospel writers may very well have been aware of censuses, and used it as a literary convenience to explain why Jesus of Nazareth would come from Bethlehem.

Like Cyrus, Alexander, et.al., little did the 'mighty' Caesar 'Augustus' realize he was merely playing water boy in God's plan of Redemption.

 

[Revolvr]

As an archaeologist, I'd be interested in a citation that describes these epigraphical artifacts.

A. H. M. Jones, ed., A History of Rome through the Fifth Century

 

[Revolvr]

I also believe in the historical Jesus. My point is that the Gospels contradict themselves in certain way, which means something's got to be wrong. Also, certain stories are obviously made up to fulfill prophesy. King Herod, of course, would fear a child of royal descent in his own House, as that child might usurp him. For example, August had Ceasarion killed at the age of 17. But, it's nonsense to believe Herod would fear a child a common birth. The fact that the Roman had censuses does not mean Jesus went on a pilgramage to Bethlehem. The Gospel writers may very well have been aware of censuses, and used it as a literary convenience to explain why Jesus of Nazareth would come from Bethlehem.

But your point about Gospel contradictions has not been made. The only example you cite is the circumstances around the birth of Jesus. But we’ve seen no evidence contradicting Luke. When we get to the personal movements of Joseph and Mary, they are reasonably consistent with what is known of the time. The conclusions of historical study do indeed strengthen the case for the reliability of the Bible.

The objections you raise are the conjectures of skepticism, not of contradictions. Herod was already in trouble with the Romans; he had a proclivity to kill his own sons; he was told by respected, wealthy Magi a new king had been born, never told Jesus was a “commoner”. We will just have to disagree on his reaction.

In an earlier response to Cris, you said: “Tell that to the Christian martyrs who died for those Books.” Do you really think those early Christians who wrote these books would die for a work of fiction? I certainly wouldn’t. But this again may be something we will have to disagree on.

 

[Why?]

Of course people will die for a book of fiction - if they believe the book and don't realize it's fiction. Didn't plenty of German soldiers die because they believed Mein Kampf?

 

[Revolvr]

Of course people will die for a book of fiction - if they believe the book and don't realize it's fiction. Didn't plenty of German soldiers die because they believed Mein Kampf?

Except they wrote the book! They know if it's fiction or not.