why are preditors more intelegent?

Originally posted by Asguard
the ability to use tools IS a form of intelegence
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yes sure it does, but even a two year old can shoot a gun, even my dog can properly use it's dog bowl, but neither of the two invented it. You could e.g. call our arms a piece of technology, sure it takes intelligence to use but intinct comes into play doensn't it? so where is the line drawn? when do we start learning, stop learning, i have no doubts that humans are the most dominant and percievably intelligent species on this planet, whether or not that intelligenec is a real thing i'm not so sure about, or whether it is all instinct, just we have more and better intincts.

the reason i prefer instinct over intelligence is because you could say a man is more intelligent than another man but could that man beat the other man in a battle to the death? could he beat him at chess? cooking a pizza? raising a family? How can we test which man is more intelligent? and if we can't how can we say we are more intelligent to any animal? can anyone here build an ants nest? how helpful would you be to that species!?

If by intelligence you mean that we have technology and computers etc etc then sure i'm willing to accept that, but i'm also willing to accept that robots are the next step in evolution i.e. intelligent beings with the definate chance of immortality, and that we are now on the chopping block. Furthermore if AI did take over and was not violent and did not eat, could it not then be said that the most intelligent species is NOT a predator(anymore).
 
The most intelligent animals are not predators, but animals that live in complex, interactive social groups. It requires a lot of brainpower to deal with social group dynamics.

Humans are not predators in a strict sense, they are opportunists. Sometimes this means adopting the predator role.

now we can make some generalizations:

in general carnivores AND omnivores are more intelligent than herbivores

in general social (group) animals are more intelligent than non-social animals


and of course, there are always exceptions.
 
ur telling me SHEEP are intellegent???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

they r the stupidest animal on earth
 
Originally posted by Asguard
ur telling me SHEEP are intellegent???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

they r the stupidest animal on earth
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All they do is eat, sleep, and shag. Seems pretty smart to me.
 
i seem to need to spell out everything, since people forgot that they have a brain stashed away somewhere...sheep live in social groups, but the group dynamics are not as complex as those of a wolf pack...hence they get by with less intelligence.
 
I dont think predators are always more inteligent but an explaination into why that might be the trend could be found with one of Darwins theories. Can't remember it perfectly but i do remember something about those species that are better equipped for their environment are bound to survive. It may be that many other predators just failed to survive because they just didn't have the brain power to get what they needed. Those that did (have the brains) manage to survive and thrive.
 
To the extent that we compete against similar species and members of our own, if predators/omnivores/etc. are smarter they should continue to get smarter.

Whereas herbivores don't really need to be clever, predator prey dynamics will keep some subset alive. Sure the more clever ones that can avoid predators will have a selective advantage, but they don't inherently depend on cleverness for survival. No matter how smart a herbivore is, it's capacity to feed is probably limited by its gut not it's brain. I guess this basically is a fleshing out of sneaking up on a leaf.

On an off note: I wonder sometimes in humans though if a high fraction of suicides are smart people who can't handle living in a world filled with so many idiots ... it's not fun to not be understood by others. Though maybe it's not that intelligence dependent ... who really understands anyone else?
 
who is daddy?

lets sum things up again:

who are the smartest animals on earth:

primates

are primates predators/carnivores....

no....

are predators the smartest animals....

no....

are predators more intelligent than herbivores...

mostly yes....

are predators most intelligent.....

no...primates are....

are primates predators....

no...some show some predatory behaviour, like humans and chimps....



what makes primates so intelligent?

might it be their complex social structure?
it often could be the explanation...lots of biologists say it is....


interestingly...i read recently in new scientist something about the hunter ability of the early humans. Apparently, they were probably not active hunters at all (of larger animals), but scavengers. That would put us back again in the position of opportunists. Apparently we didn't evolve to be hunters, just to be clever and adapt. The classic hunter role therefore might have come much later.
 
Too bad your name declares you as a fake primate ... you've excluded yourself from the most intelligent population by your own words ; )

Then again I once new a self declared hamster I thought was pretty clever.

I'm not sure if your comment was aimed at me - I was just trying to point out what the rate limiting factor seems to be for herbivores vs. predators/omnivores in survival. In one case it's being eaten, in the other it's finding food. This might have some impact on evolution of attributes such as intelligence. Defense to a large degree requires alertness more than cunning. Offense is easier to plan than defense, since you don't know the form of attack ahead of time.

I would guess scavengers like predators are limited by finding food and coming up with ways to get well protected foods. Both require out competing similar individuals, either in your species or a species with overlapping food preferences, for resources. I would imagine this would be a very effective way of a species to hone it's intelligence - especially once physical capacities for physical attributes are nearly optimal (for the body plan etc. in the local genetic neighborhood). I would imagine that physical attributes in such a plan are easier to hone than creative intelligence as intelligence is so much more open ended.

Even if scavengers are more intelligent than predators, if predators are more intelligent than most of their prey that is still a reasonable topic for discussion if people so choose. One might point out that predators aren't the most intelligent. If scavengers need to be more intelligent it's interesting to compare all three methods for obtaining food. Do scavengers need to be smarter to survive when more individually powerful predators are around?

Personally, I have no idea if omnivores evolved from herbivores or carnivores or are a maintained line with a flexible palate. Are they smarter predators that couldn't compete physically and were gustatorily adaptive? Did predators come from omnivores that were so successful at getting meat they lost the ability to eat herbs?

Your comment that social organization requires complex reasoning certainly makes sense, but there is more to discuss. First to act socially requires the intelligence, whether rooted in instinct or reasoning, to actually work together to get food. It allows speedy consumption of resources discovered. Further social communication allows faster discovery of food that might not be in abundance.

To sum up I think you make intelligent comments, but discussions require an open mind and personally I hope sciforums is a forum for discussion not pontification. While I find your comments intelligent, it's really not very fun to be lectured and talked down to.

And I for one would never do that ; ) ...

ok maybe I would, but not because I actually think I have a right to. It seems to be an adaptive reflex learned by many in elementary school. It reminds me of rubber and glue.
 
what did happen to hampster?


anyway removing humans are primates or dolphins\wales more intelegent???

i herd that they can train a dolpin to understand human speach (not just mindlessly repeat it like a parrot actully understand)
 
Originally posted by scilosopher

Personally, I have no idea if omnivores evolved from herbivores or carnivores or are a maintained line with a flexible palate. Are they smarter predators that couldn't compete physically and were gustatorily adaptive? Did predators come from omnivores that were so successful at getting meat they lost the ability to eat herbs?
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i do not think that it is possible to say that omnivores evolved from carnivores or herbviores...

why...because eating habits are very flexible. Two closely related species can be at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Let's look at primates. We have the gorilla who is a strict herbivore, a chimp is mainly a herbivore, but doesn't shy away from eating small animals, eggs, insect, etc. Then there is humans, who are clearly omnivores.
Therefore within one closely related group of species we see a lot of diversity in the eating habits.
This phenomenum is not restricted to primates. There is an enormous amount of variation out there.
bears for instance...most bears are omnivores...pandas are herbivores..and the polar bear is almost strictly a carnivore in its natural environment.

Apparently it is possible to switch between herbivore, omnivore and carnivore role in evolution. It is of course more difficult to switch from specialized herbivore to carnivore and vice versa, then to switch from omnivore to carnivore or herbivore. Why? because it would require more evolutionary change.
The biggest changes usually have to occur in the digestive tract and teeth. Some systems might be more suited for a herbivoruous lifestyle, but that doesn't mean that less species with less efficient digestive tracts can't be hebrivores....look at the panda bear for instance...it has to eat most of the day since it is so ineffecient as a herbivore, but still it evolved into a herbivore...
 
well, someone finally said it..

"The biggest changes usually have to occur in the digestive tract and teeth. Some systems might be more suited for a herbivoruous lifestyle"

Humans are all combined, predator, cultivator, scavenger, opportunists. predators like lions, wolves etc, are cunning in tracking, and depend on stealth and speed for food! they do not have the inventive traits that humans or chimps, have, such as chimps using a reed to suck out sweets from certain plants. humans and primates both have herb and meat eating teeth, as do apes, I think bears also have both, and have a flexible diet. cunning and intellegence are separate from instinct in survival, such as lions, which the females are the primary hunters. most males in other species are the breadwinners. what about penguins?
 
penguins?


birds in general are quite lucky in the sense that they don't have teeth...just a single beak...

It might be easier to change the shape of the beak than to make a herbivorous tooth out of a carnivorous tooth.

look at darwins finches of the galapagos islands. One findh species radiated out to many different finch species occupying different niches. What are the most remarkable changes...the shape of the beaks.
 
well, take an AntEater for example, they have no jaws, if I remember correctly. just a verylong tongue, and all they eat are insects. ants mainly. the preying matis, some frogs, and some fish are chameleons. they let their food come to them. is this intellegence? predatory for sure! a Penguin eats fish, not sure what else, bugs, maybe! cranes, and others eat fish also.. but the buzzard, is a scavenger like a jackal, or catfish, shark.. the food chain thang.. I saw a pic of a porpoise once, that had been bitten by a great white shark, supposedly, a huge chunk was taken out of it! it was noted that sharks rarely eat a porpoise, and it is well known that for centuries porpoises' were more than a match for sharks, and they also would lead sailors through deep water, and on more than one occasion they have kept sharks away from swimming people, like they know what they are doing.

Snakes are predators also, but not all that brilliant thinkers.. yeah!...lol.. neither Am I sometimes.. and I love Chicken breast meat, so I skillfully, unmercifully, scavenge, procure, or otherwise obtain it intellegently or not.:D

And I like Taters too!
 
i'm not sure if an anteater has no jaws...probably no teeth...

there is this Order of Edentata (means no teeth), which includes for instance sloths and armadillos. I thought the anteater belonged to this group too, but i am not sure anymore
Although Edentata means no teeth, some of the species that belong to this order have in fact teeth. Sloths for instance have very simple teeth. Round pegs consisting of Dentin, with no enamel. As you might know Enamel is the hard white stuff on the surface of your teeth. Dentin is also hard, but less hard than enamel, it is more like bone.
The teeth of the sloth start out with a little enamel cap on top, but they lose this quickly. What is left is then only the dentin and a pulpchamber. How can they be herbivores with such soft teeth you might wonder? Well they might be soft, but they grow continuously throughout their lifetime, thus compensating for the wear of the teeth.

end...biology lesson...

to the list of unintelligent predators you might may add:
crocodiles...
predatory insect species....
 
**Mercy sakes... my , my... is all this stored in your brain? or are you reading from a book? hehehe... kidding..:)

"Sloths for instance have very simple teeth. Round pegs consisting of Dentin, with no enamel. As you might know Enamel is the hard white stuff on the surface of your teeth. Dentin is also hard, but less hard than enamel, it is more like bone."

.....I knew all that, I was just testing you.

they are mulchers, I think!

..I do know all about dillos, dillers, or armadillos.. I wrote a description about those to a canadian gal I met last year.. She thought I meant dildos.. and I made a typo. so, I had to explain the difference.
........want to read it?

Dillers are everywhere here in Texas. they are good to eat also, as they taste like chicken.

I really think that anteaters have no jaws. I think it was on the dicovery channel, or newspaper, or mad magazine, or a restroom wall somewhere. I suppose I could get online and look it up.. ehh?
 
that's funny...i started searching the net...and now one site says that sloths have 'rootless' teeth...

I learned from other sources that they have continuously growing roots.


2 conflicting sources...i should get to the root of this

quote:
Families:
Myrmecophagidae (anteaters)
Megalonychidae (two toed sloths)
Bradypodidae (three toed sloths)
Dasypodidae (armadillos)
Edentate means “without teeth”, but only anteaters are totally toothless. Sloths and armadillos have simple rootless molars that grow throughout their life. Pangolins, now in their separate order, Pholidata, were once included in the order Edentata because they have no teeth.

quote no2 (which i trust more)
Xenarthrans lack incisors or canines, and if present, their molars and premolars are simply cylinders without the covering of enamel that is found on the teeth of most other mammals. These teeth have a single root.

quote no3:
The teeth of three-toed sloths are highly distinctive. Incisors and canines are lacking and the number of cheek teeth is reduced to 5/4-5 = 18-20. Each tooth is a simple, ever-growing peg surrounded by a thin layer of dentine (but no enamel) and coated with cementum. The anteriormost teeth are smaller than the more posterior ones, and the anterior upper teeth do not occlude with the anterior lower teeth.

---cementum clearly indicates the presence of a root, therefore we have a root and one website has been real sloppy. Interestingly enough it is an academic website and a course. Yes...it is really true, they teach you crap in school.
http://www5.wittenberg.edu/academics/biol/courses/mammals/edent.htm
 
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lets flip a coin... ya ownt to? how about jaws in the anteater? somehow that sticks in my head, because of, well.... no jaws!

Where I live in the U.S , the fireants are awsome! they put blisters everywhere they sting, so we are thinking anteaters, although the ants have a natural enemie, which is a small fly that lays eggs in the ants head.. a really SMALL fly! the eggs hatch and the baby fly drives the ant slowly insane,, kinda like human babies do moms and daddys.. they are breeding those and turning them loose in the south where the ants are dominant..
 
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