Soon they will be using convicts to help with production!
Why are American Car Makers Hurting???
- Thread starter Mickmeister
- Start date
Soon they will be using convicts to help with production!
From what I've read, American cars are pretty much just as reliable as foriegn cars these days. In the seventies and eighties they were not, but they've improved.
Now for the anecdotal bit, I drive a Chevy Suburban and a Chrysler Sebring. The Chevy has had a couple problems. The Chrysler has had none.
I previously had a Geo Metro, no problems. A Saturn, no problems. A Nissan, a few problems but pretty reliable. A Toyota, no probs. And my very first car was an old beat up 1979 Turbocharged Mustang. Lots of problems (and lots of speeding tickets), but I only paid $500 for it. It was a great little car, I learned a lot repairing it.
superstring01
Moderator
No. The leadership of the "Big Three" definitely have blood on their hands there. They (as I pointed out) never had the content of vision to invest in hybrids and other fuel saving autos, nor have they forced the issue of quality on their workers the way Japanese and Korean manufacturers have.
None of their guilt, however, negates the guilt that sits on the American autoworker and their union protectors who have made the whole industry so cumbersome and clunky that it's damned near impossible to be nimble in the way that it needs to be in order to compete with the Japanese & Korean manufacturers.
Sure. Lazy. Ah-ha. Just look at our fucked-up work week and the horrific vacations we get each year... if we were TRULY lazy we'd move to Australia or Canada where their governments have far, FAR better legislation protecting worker's personal time (none of this implies that the Aussies or Canucks are lazy-- which I don't think they are).
~String
the sample size was much bigger than that.
What is the cause for this behaviour though? I'm fairly convinced that the current capitalist system is rotten. I have nothing against a trading society as such. We have been trading already for at least 75,000 years. It's what we are. American styled capitalism is a monster though. It has a huge body that feeds a few enormous heads.
The big tree never invested in the future because the system doesn't reward investing in the far future. As a CEO or other leader of a large company you can move around between companies. Previous shitty long term performance isn't even really going to hinder you in this. The social network seems slightly more important.
What really counts is short term future performance. For the sake of the stockholders each year a profit has to be made (preferably). An investment plan that will limit profits or eliminate them for the next 10 years so that the company can restructure for the far future will not fly. Once you are in the shithole because previous management made bad judgment calls, i.e. just thought about the quick buck this year, it's going to be extraordinary difficult to get out again in a global market. Maybe the Japanese factory made less profit, but it kept investing. Maybe the European company was subsidized to hell and beyond to keep up with restructuring. Once your behind you are going to need relatively larger investment to join the pack, and god knows what to get into the lead position again.
Maybe America was even more susceptible to the short time vision because the common isolationist views. The economic events and market developments outside the US were deemed unimportant or not important enough.
Is this really true though? We have seen that unions are strong in Europe and Japan. It cannot be the unions. It must be something else. Something that combines with the union into a 'deadly' factor.
Selfishness?
Mickmeister
Registered Senior Member
My point is the Infiniti and Mercedes-Benz both had great service compared to the two GM vehicles. The Mercedes had a shit load of problems with it (i.e. transmission had to be replaced at 10,000 miles, climate control system went out, dash compartment door had to be replaced three times to say just a few). At least with the Mercedes, they stood behind their warranty, whereas GM does not without 100% proof. All I had to do was to take the Mercedes in for service, tell them what was wrong and there were no more questions asked. GM, hahahahaha.... My windshield wipers don't work at times when it rains. GM says they can't find anything wrong, so they won't do anything about it because they say they can't replace the system because it might not be the problem. If it was a Mercedes, they would have already replaced the entire system without any further questions. You call these good vehicles???? Service is part of what you buy when purchasing a vehicle. Even when the warranty was ready to expire on the Mercedes and Infiniti, I brought them in for the last servicing and they told me to tell them of anything, no matter how little it was, and they would fix or replace it. GM never offered that before when I had my Z28. What ticks me off even more about this is that my truck only cost about $2000 less than the Mercedes I had, yet the service on it is far from desired.
i wasn't replying to superstring and you know it. you are a double talker and you should know that. coulda, shoulda but they are not. we could say that about a lot of things. Well, if only this and if that, then "coulda". Sounds pretty hypocritical to me. LOL! That baron was insinuating somehow americans are just more capable when that is not the case. I don't see anything special about thier workforce. That was my point.
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superstring01
Moderator
I'm not convinced that American style capitalism isn't all that different than most other styles of capitalism. The fact that our economy has fewer regulations is exactly why it's so enormous, companies love to set up shop here. Besides, those companies that you speak of, definitely provide a lot of income to a lot of people who aren't just big heads.
Hmmm. Well, I think you're closer to the right point than not. Most CEO's leave large corporations as retired people. I don't think they float between companies. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it. Once you've been a CEO of a Fortune 500 (or 1000, whatever the new benchmark is), you're done, no matter how well you do. Most of them move on to "charitable" work after that and just clip coupons for the remainder of their lives.
Also, American corporations have a demand that they be immediately profitable. The large investment firms and individual stockholders are very unforgiving-- and don't fool yourself by believing that it's "the American stockholders". People buy stocks for various reasons-- the world buys America stocks for immediate financial profit.
On the flip side (and I think you eluded to this), Japanese corporations rarely pay out solid dividends-- most monies are re-invested in the future of the company, and immediate financial solvency is often times set aside in order to invest in large or complex future initiatives that, if misguided, can lead to disaster for the company or economy. Just look at the Japanese and Korean economies in the 90's. Japan's economy failed to grow for a record 12 years because, in part, of Japanese corporation's failure to secure solid profits in lieu of future investment. During that decade, people were hailing the American management style-- which has pervaded both India and China and has sub planted the more tempered Japanese style.
Am I saying that "we're right they're wrong!" No. But, worms often turn, and when they do, people always sing a different tune.
That might apply 20 or 50 years ago, but American corporations aren't run exclusively by Americans any more... nor are they owned by them. Most companies are owned through trust funds, mutual funds, retirement funds and day traders-- and they in turn are run by people all over the world. "American isolationism" has nothing to do with it. People buy American funds looking for one thing, and Japanese funds looking for another, and that pressure, applied BY EVERYBODY, is what drives the individual market. For eons, people have seen the USA as a "cash now" engine which has, by and large, driven the world's economies. That view is shifting, though, with greater ("Now more European!") regulation of the US economy, moderate growth and returns and the rise of Asia-- the USA is becoming more and more like the European economies every day.
Actually, Japanese rarely have unions. Oh, they exist there, and if they do they are TOTALLY different than anything in Europe. They are all about collaborative bargaining and management integration. In the USA and Europe unions are known for doing what they always have: champion worker rights to the point where those right may actually impede the business. This is a totally broad stroke description and doesn't describe them all, but it fits the cultural difference between the Asian view of worker protection and the Euro/American vision of the same thing.
I don't think "selfishness" is the right word. I think it's misguided priorities and a lack of vision as to what is feesable and what is doable.
~String
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That's the big sore point. Japanese cars don't need extended warranties as they are usually reliable. But the quality of the warranty is what determines whether a vehicle is worth it's price and whether you are basically going to be cheated out of your money. They are stingy and dubious.
I've owned a Honda Pilot since 2004. It has 100,000 mi on it and I never had to repair its engine once or any other part.
Technological advancement. Chevy and Ford do not put has much money into building new and higher quality engines with higher performance and better reliability. The materials our domestic car makers use are of lesser quality than that of imports.
Interior. The interior in domestic cars fall apart and do not feel as comfortable as the Imports. Cheap materials are used for the interior. The overall look of the interior looks and feels cheaper than it's competitors.
Exterior. The exterior designs of the cars are not all that impressive from the domestic designers. Ford exterior designs are improving but I cant say the same for Chrysler and GM. None of their designs seem to pop out from the rest so they are boring to look at.
I think because of all this they have already soiled their once good names. No matter what they do they will always be remembered as making unreliable ordinary and boring vehicles.
Interior. The interior in domestic cars fall apart and do not feel as comfortable as the Imports. Cheap materials are used for the interior. The overall look of the interior looks and feels cheaper than it's competitors.
Exterior. The exterior designs of the cars are not all that impressive from the domestic designers. Ford exterior designs are improving but I cant say the same for Chrysler and GM. None of their designs seem to pop out from the rest so they are boring to look at.
I think because of all this they have already soiled their once good names. No matter what they do they will always be remembered as making unreliable ordinary and boring vehicles.
As a car ethusiasts with virtually no knowledge of actual engineering apart from the rate of gasoline combustion and price of gas, I have an opinion. Yes, there is a slight gap in quality between American cars and European cars. The biggest reason why Americana cars are lagging is the...surprise, surprise... culture. Japan and Germany have a generaly disciplined culture, and their engineering is top notch. Like some user said here, "the U.S is all about bottomline". The major reason is because American cars aren't as exported as the others, because many American cars aren't made to be exported their warranties and customer service fall below par. In Japan, there is a customer service line in every country they export to (which by the way is virtually every country that has reasonable to average driveable road), so direct that you can actually be put through with the chief mechanic in Yokohama as he is about having his sushi breakfast. But Japanese cars didn't become top notch by nothing, I mean they last longer, better on gas, and generaly more reliable. The market war started and ended in the 60's-80's, the japs were producing top notch engineers from universities and keeping the car companies out of the stockmarket while Americans were dropping out of high school and selling car companies to the highest bidders. The result is a fierce small and nimble unit in Japan while the Americans mostly trail. For what its worth, one of the absolutely best things the American auto manufacturer...no..any auto maker in the world... has churned out... is the Ford Mustang.
I think I saw on top gear once the quest to find the best car in the world. The ford mustang was a candidate, but it fell through because of its abysmal handling characteristics.
Still, it was a candidate.
if my memory serves me correct.
rockthebox
Registered Member
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i've come to notice that the more expensive your car is, the better your experience will be. I own a bmw and when there is a problem, they will fix it right away.
i've come to notice that the more expensive your car is, the better your experience will be. I own a bmw and when there is a problem, they will fix it right away.
Mickmeister
Registered Senior Member
And you are right about that, but it also ticks me off that my pickup truck cost almost as much as the Mercedes I had, yet the service sucks.