Who was Lazarus?

Feel free to think so. We can address it again if and when you choose to read something substantive about the Documentary Hypothesis. Or not.
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Perhaps I should say some of my views. I've already explained the differences in previous posts. Feel free to correct me, I'll take no offense.
 
invert_nexus said:
Perhaps I should say some of my views. I've already explained the differences in previous posts. Feel free to correct me, I'll take no offense.
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There is this story about the man who insists that 16/64 = 1/4 because, he notes, it's the result one gets by cancelling sixes.
 
There is this story about the man who insists that 16/64 = 1/4 because, he notes, it's the result one gets by cancelling sixes.
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No, it's more like the story of the man who said that 1, 2, and 3 are numbers, but doesn't know the rest. It's also the story of a man who knows 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 but jealously hoards his knowledge.

I have already stated that I was wrong about the verb tense, I should have referred to person instead, but even that fails in what I was trying to do with it. And anything I speculated about slavery in Egypt being a "recent" addition was just that, speculation. I never made any stand on it even being likely. In fact, I said it was unlikely.

But, whatever you say. Hang on to that golden ring, bud. It'll make you feel better in your golden years knowing that no one succeeded in prying it from your grasp.
 
invert_nexus said:
I missed the Pharoah implication ...
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You also missed the fact that M*W has a long history wallowing in this stuff.

invert_nexus said:
As I posted before, the speculated date for the Exodus was 1280-1250 BCE while the 18th dynasty ended in 1295 (according to <a href="http://www.touregypt.net/kings.htm">here</a>). So it's entirely possible that the Exodus did occur in the 18th, though current speculation places it later. The Hebrew slaves would very likely have been affected by the Aten heresy (which occured in 1350-1344). And it's entirely possible that Moses (possibly Egyptian and not Hebrew at all) was originally an Aten worshipper. Is anything known of the Aten religion and how it was practiced? Are there any similarities with the Moses era of Judaism? More research is required on this point.
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Not "more", "any" ... We have nothing here but a presumed coincidence of dates, derived by taking one of two conjectured dates of an Exodus for which there is no evidence, and then introjecting a religion which is wholly unattested. There is no reason to presume anything other than common henotheism among the proto-Israelites of the hill country, and even less to posit anything remotely similar to a Aten worship.

There are two general ways to approach matters:
  • gather and integrate the evidence and see where it takes you, or
  • weave some fantasy and then see if it holds up.
I prefer the former.

So, invert_nexus, why not suggest the evidence for a 13th century BCE Exodus/Conquest, then suggest the evidence for a 13th century BCE monotheism, then suggest the evidence casting YHWH as a sun god rather than a prototypical Canaanite Deity, and then we can entertain the silliness that M*W persists in insinuating at every opportunity.
 
invert_nexus said:
And anything I speculated about slavery in Egypt being a "recent" addition was just that, speculation. I never made any stand on it even being likely. In fact, I said it was unlikely.
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And you also said:
So it's entirely possible that the Exodus did occur in the 18th, though current speculation places it later.
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May I ask on what this estimate is based? Have you heard about the movie "A Day Without A Mexican"?
 
So, invert_nexus, why not suggest the evidence for a 13th century BCE Exodus/Conquest, then suggest the evidence for a 13th century BCE monotheism, then suggest the evidence casting YHWH as a sun god rather than a prototypical Canaanite Deity, and then we can entertain the silliness that M*W persists in insinuating at every opportunity.
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Of course, I have none. All dates are speculative. Aten is a nearly unknown religion (AFAIK). The facts about early Judaism are nonexistant (again, AFAIK). I take your point. And no, I don't know everything that's been posted in the religion forum since god knows when. So, if this is a commonly brought up theme, then I understand the hostility. I'll know better next time it comes up.

Sometimes it is helpful to "weave some fantasy" to see where it leads you. One often learns from criticism, you know. As I stated before, it's difficult to seperate the wheat from the chaff while researching a topic. Just every now and again, some who have already done so will share some flour. Not always though.
 
May I ask on what this estimate is based? Have you heard about the movie "A Day Without A Mexican"?
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Based on the proposition that 50 to 100 years is no big leap when the dates are that speculative anyway.

Day Without a Mexican? Nope, can't say that I have.
 
invert_nexus said:
Of course, I have none. All dates are speculative.
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You keep wanting to speculate on the length of the Unicorn's horn. I'm not talking about the date of the Exodus, but its historicity.

The facts about early Judaism are nonexistant (again, AFAIK).
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So much for Syro-Palestinian archaeology ...
 
I'm not talking about the date of the Exodus, but its historicity.
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I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by historicity here. What does history say about it? Did it even occur? Archeological evidence?

So much for Syro-Palestinian archaeology ...
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Yes, so much for that, rotten bastards... :p Actually, I meant early Judaism, while Moses was still in charge. I haven't heard of any archeological discoveries along this vein, hence the AFAIK. I have seen references to digs at Jericho and other biblical sites, but that may not represent what the religion was originally. But, I suppose if we're after dates (which you say we're not) then one could find the level of the invasion by the Hebrews at Jericho (I think they have it worked it out somewhat) and count backwards. If there is any truth to the bible, then it was less than one man's lifetime since the exodus.
 
me said:
So it's entirely possible that the Exodus did occur in the 18th, though current speculation places it later.
ConsequentAtheist said:
May I ask on what this estimate is based?

... I'm not talking about the date of the Exodus, but its historicity.
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Looks like you're talking about dates here. That's all it's based on. Coincidence of dates. Highly speculative dates at that.
 
Why do you presume a Biblical Exodus without evidence?
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Ahh, I get you. I don't, I'm merely discussing the idea. All the evidence I've heard is lack of evidence on that subject.
 
I give up; I can only assume that your a blithering idiot. If and when you have some evidence that there was an Ethodux, we'll talk.
 
invert_nexus said:
I didn't mean to cast aspersions, I realize that a lot of what I have said is speculative as well. Speculation isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as it is presented as speculation so that some won't take it as truth.
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M*W: Thank you, i_n! CA's perpetual condescendence of my posts don't bother me in the least. I don't claim to be a scholar on biblical history, so everything I post is speculative. CA twists my reference as if it were my own words so he can publicly humiliate me. I'm sure everyone knows his tactics by now. (You should see the PMs I get from a lot of the members here who say my posts "have inspired them," and that I "make this all more understandable for them."

Even with CA's disparaging remarks about me and my posts, fact is, even though he spews his hatred at me personally, he still doesn't know me, he still doesn't know who I have known along the way, or even what I may know, or how many degrees I have and what they're in.) The hatred he spews is what has festered within him. It has absolutely nothing to do with me. As you will see, he does this to everybody, but mostly me. I certainly don't expect it to go away. In fact, I hope he keeps it up! Because of CA's hatred, I get the nicest supportive PMs, and then we have a chuckle about him. How ignorant he is to believe he already knows it all!
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Consequent, on Medicine Woman's behalf, I'll offer this. Often, when I have come across something that I find interesting but unsubstantiated, I'll offer it up on a board such as this and see if anyone else has heard about it and might offer up some further insight and sources.This is understandable, but if you take some of the causticness from Consequent's replies, he's offering good advice (not about the topic, but on research in general). Always take it with a grain of salt. Ask for references and source material. It is especially easy in the internet age to come across reams and reams of useless unsubstantial "facts." That's the greatest difficulty in searching for anything, discarding the wheat from the chaff.
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M*W: Yes, I always take CA "with a grain of salt" and maybe with a little pepper too!
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On the other hand, my problem seems to be in retention of relevant data. I often get things turned around through faulty memory. For instance, ever heard of the saying, "feed a cold, starve a fever" or is it "feed a fever, starve a cold"? See, that's my problem. Which is it? I can never remember. Which is why I try to refer to reference materials whenever possible. So that the confusion might be clarified. I don't try to make my brain a mighty reference library, merely a cross-referencing tool. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail. But, I can always go back to the source material to clear it up. If it's available, that is.
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M*W: Retention seems to be a problem in my age group. My grandchildren know I'm getting to be more forgetful, but they just want to know when am I ever going to grow up! (Never!).

The reference that provoked CA to his explosive wrath was JESUS, LAST OF THE PHARAOHS: The Truth Behind the Mask Revealed, by Ralph Ellis, Edfu Books, Dorset, England, 1999.

And for your future reference, it's "feed a cold," because the body needs nourishment to kill off the bad germs, and "starve a fever," because the body needs to rest and not digest to lower the fever. If you have a fever AND a cold, just eat a little chicken soup. It's been scientifically proven (and I didn't need an Egyptologist at the university level to teach me that!)
 
ConsequentAtheist,

Why can't you discuss the idea of a religious concept in a religious forum? I personally believe that there was no exodus, but I am still able to entertain the concept.
 
Medicine Woman,

I guess the question becomes what were his references? Did he base it on anything solid or just speculating like I've been doing? It's definitely an interesting concept in an ironic sort of way.
 
invert_nexus said:
ConsequentAtheist,

Why can't you discuss the idea of a religious concept in a religious forum? I personally believe that there was no exodus, but I am still able to entertain the concept.
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So, when you wrote:
So it's entirely possible that the Exodus did occur in the 18th, though current speculation places it later.​
you meant to say that you"personally believe that there was no exodus".

Let me see if I understand: speculating about the historical relationship between Amenhotep IV and an exodus that you don't believe happened constitutes a viable religious discussion. Got it. :(
 
invert_nexus said:
Medicine Woman,

I guess the question becomes what were his references? Did he base it on anything solid or just speculating like I've been doing?
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But you went far beyond just speculating. In fact, you boast: "I don't proclaim to be a scholar, but I read everything I can on this subject.”

So, once again: what have you read by any professional Egyptologist affiliated with any reputable university?
 
What a pathetic and dishonest little list you have there. Let's do the following: you pick the one that you find most probative and start a new thread. I'll be more than happy to contribute.
 
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