Who killed Jesus ?
- Thread starter everneo
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If you have a plan that you absolutely want to succeed, you would do well to consider all the possiblities especially if that plan involves getting other people to help you. You would do especially well to consider all the possibilities if the success of your plan was the difference between life and death once the plan was in motion.
What if your helpers turned against you? You still carry responsibility for the overall success of the project because it was your idea. You will be the one that carries the can so to speak if it all goes belly up. You will not be able to blame the people who you enlisted to help. They are just doing it for reward and could easily turn against you if they felt that you were going to get all the glory when the project was completed and not them.
At least you would be able to enlist the help of your son. You could always send him to help out even if all the other helpers failed you. Surely they would listen to him!
What if your helpers turned against you? You still carry responsibility for the overall success of the project because it was your idea. You will be the one that carries the can so to speak if it all goes belly up. You will not be able to blame the people who you enlisted to help. They are just doing it for reward and could easily turn against you if they felt that you were going to get all the glory when the project was completed and not them.
At least you would be able to enlist the help of your son. You could always send him to help out even if all the other helpers failed you. Surely they would listen to him!
Yo Adstar 
Quote Adstar:
"A1: Yes"
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"But those who killed Him did so by their own free will and by their own manipulative cunning."
If the death of Jesus was planned from the start, there could be no genuine free will involved. In this case any free will would be an illusion. Period.
The only manipulation here was committed by your alleged god.
Allcare.
Quote Adstar:
"A1: Yes"
Quote Adstar:
"But those who killed Him did so by their own free will and by their own manipulative cunning."
If the death of Jesus was planned from the start, there could be no genuine free will involved. In this case any free will would be an illusion. Period.
The only manipulation here was committed by your alleged god.
Allcare.
stretched said:Yo Adstar
Quote Adstar:
"A1: Yes"
Quote Adstar:
"But those who killed Him did so by their own free will and by their own manipulative cunning."
If the death of Jesus was planned from the start, there could be no genuine free will involved. In this case any free will would be an illusion. Period.
The only manipulation here was committed by your alleged god.
Allcare.
Unless of course Jesus was always with God ( begotten Son) and knew the hearts of men. He knew that when His light was in the world, the world would try and snuff it out because it would expose the evil things that those of the world do particulary the hypocrites who hide behind their long white robes and chastise the poor. Oh Jesus knew what would happen to Him. It was 'bound' to happen to Him.
He still came though. Would you still have come? Would you have given up your place of utter Glory and Sovreignty to come and be whipped and beaten and killed as a mere human being so that all who believe in you might be saved? Remember that Jesus didnt stay dead! If He had of done then I would agree that Jesus came for nothing!
Thank you for your response (?), MW. If you can quote your resources for your point of view then that would be helpful. Otherwise the historical evidence says Jesus's death was a result from extreme shock due to a combination of exhaustion, pain and loss of blood. http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htmMedicine Woman said:
Stretched, do you have children? Sometimes my children think they are being crafty and sneaking around behind my back - and sometimes I let them just because I think it is amusing. Sometimes I let them continue in their misunderstanding that I don't know what is going on and let them persist in their erroneous belief that they are fooling me. Sometimes I let them make a mess or get into trouble (at least as long as they don't harm themselves) just to teach them - or let them learn from their own mistakes.stretched said:
God is as a Father to us. If I can see through the simple subterfuge of my children, how much more can God see through the silly little plots that man conceives. There is no sad logic here, only a benevolent Father, trying to teach His wayward children. After all, we can't really get hurt (at least not from God's point of view) since the worst we can do is kill ourselves - which doesn't hurt the eternal spirit within.
Seeing from God's point of view is significantly different from seeing through man's eyes.
stretched said:Yo Adstar
Quote Adstar:
"A1: Yes"
Quote Adstar:
"But those who killed Him did so by their own free will and by their own manipulative cunning."
If the death of Jesus was planned from the start, there could be no genuine free will involved. In this case any free will would be an illusion. Period.
The only manipulation here was committed by your alleged god.
Allcare.
If the death of Jesus was planned from the start, there could be no genuine free will involved. In this case any free will would be an illusion. Period.
See stretched this is where you fall down. Your relying on your own limited understanding of Gods abilities. Please take the time to read my posts in 1Dude's thread.
Yes God planned it from the very start and yes "But those who killed Him did so by their own free will and by their own manipulative cunning." Both statements are true.
God is not restricted by universal time, He is not restricted by His creation.
All praise the Ancient Of Days
stretched said:
Jesus is the WORD
Jesus is the THE TRUE LIGHT
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John's Witness: The True Light
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, "He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me."'
16And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Believe it or not
All Praise The Ancient of Days
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Yo David F,
I hear your interpretation. I agree largely with your view in a non-religious sense, however to reconcile the Christian god as a loving father is impossible. If the Bible is truly the word of this god and his actions are truly representative of his nature, then I could never be a father to my kid the way he is to his "children". He sets his children up to fall. Would you do that to your kids? I don’t need to go into detail. The OT speaks for itself.
Yo letters&numbersdude,
I have another question. Is Jesus, who is God, omnipotent and omniscient? For if he is, then how could he possibly die? And even if he did die, if he were omniscient he would know the outcome, which was part of the original plan. So what was this sacrifice that is made so much of worth in reality? There is no answer to this paradox. Apologetics are circular and pointless. Humans endure far more physical pain than the alleged crucifixion on a regular basis. A sacrifice is final. A letting go. Finito.
Yo Adstar,
“Yes God planned it from the very start and yes "But those who killed Him did so by their own free will and by their own manipulative cunning." Both statements are true. God is not restricted by universal time, He is not restricted by His creation.”
Where do you gain access to this in depth knowledge regarding the can and can`t do`s of your god? I understand your faith, but can you not see the logic? If I know the solution to a crossword beforehand, I cannot claim a honest prize on successful completion thereof. This logic is severely flawed, and god working in mysterious ways is not a solution. Take your faith out of the equation and then answer the question.
Quote Adstar:
“God is not restricted by universal time, He is not restricted by His creation.”
You do not know this for sure. There is no evidence for a god to even base this conclusion on. This statement is built on blind faith.
Quote Adstar:
“Jesus is the WORD
Jesus is the THE TRUE LIGHT”
If your conclusion here is that Jesus is God, then my response to letters&numbersdude above applies. But maybe now that while we are on this road you can explain to me why Jesus (who is god) does not know the exact time of his return? Only the Father knows. So who are these two entities? Why does Jesus here acknowledge his limitations?
Allcare.
I hear your interpretation. I agree largely with your view in a non-religious sense, however to reconcile the Christian god as a loving father is impossible. If the Bible is truly the word of this god and his actions are truly representative of his nature, then I could never be a father to my kid the way he is to his "children". He sets his children up to fall. Would you do that to your kids? I don’t need to go into detail. The OT speaks for itself.
Yo letters&numbersdude,
I have another question. Is Jesus, who is God, omnipotent and omniscient? For if he is, then how could he possibly die? And even if he did die, if he were omniscient he would know the outcome, which was part of the original plan. So what was this sacrifice that is made so much of worth in reality? There is no answer to this paradox. Apologetics are circular and pointless. Humans endure far more physical pain than the alleged crucifixion on a regular basis. A sacrifice is final. A letting go. Finito.
Yo Adstar,
“Yes God planned it from the very start and yes "But those who killed Him did so by their own free will and by their own manipulative cunning." Both statements are true. God is not restricted by universal time, He is not restricted by His creation.”
Where do you gain access to this in depth knowledge regarding the can and can`t do`s of your god? I understand your faith, but can you not see the logic? If I know the solution to a crossword beforehand, I cannot claim a honest prize on successful completion thereof. This logic is severely flawed, and god working in mysterious ways is not a solution. Take your faith out of the equation and then answer the question.
Quote Adstar:
“God is not restricted by universal time, He is not restricted by His creation.”
You do not know this for sure. There is no evidence for a god to even base this conclusion on. This statement is built on blind faith.
Quote Adstar:
“Jesus is the WORD
Jesus is the THE TRUE LIGHT”
If your conclusion here is that Jesus is God, then my response to letters&numbersdude above applies. But maybe now that while we are on this road you can explain to me why Jesus (who is god) does not know the exact time of his return? Only the Father knows. So who are these two entities? Why does Jesus here acknowledge his limitations?
Allcare.
stretched said:
Jesus didnt sin. We do. Jesus lived by faith. He couldnt 'see' His Father. He trusted. As for 'a sacrifice is final' - Jesus questioned in His mind "Father why have you forsaken me" - this broke Jesus more than the physical pain. It was His 'fellowship' with His Father that he loved more than anything else and it seemed to Jesus that this was now 'over'. Jesus lost all faith such was His agonies. He became sin for us.
Thank God that God resurrected Him or else we would all be lost - eternally lost!
Hi stretched
Well i gain that knowledge from God. I know that sounds ummmm like an inadequate answer but it is true. Let me tell you something i became a Christian after a friend gave me a bible and i read it. Now before that time i was a catholic actually i used to be a catholic alter boy LOL but i got over catholicisim by the time i was 16 because i knew in my mind that it was wrong. since i have read the bible i have not been inside a Church building except for a few christmas masses that i attended because of my dad and because i was still under his authority. So i have not gained my faith from indoctrination, from the thoughts of men. Now when i read the bible i came to the same impasse your described. That being how can predestination and free will co-exist. Now there are people in the christian world who follow a man called calvin, he delivered a doctrine called TULIP. Part of that is his interpretation of predestination that being that God created people to be saved and others to be burned that free will is a delusion and it is God and God only who causes one to come to the faith and causes them to believe. Now i came to this theory by myself i never even knew that someone had thought it up before i did. and the realization that there where people who where created with absolutely no chance of salvation, people who where blocked from believing in God, who's only purpose was to be hell fodder, cut me to the heart. I cried out to God to give me understanding and He did. i did not think up the explanation that i have given. No way. i am not that brilliant LOL. No it came direct from God and it came within a second. i did not know, and then i did, just like that.
So yes stretched i know your logic. i know where your coming from i was there once myself. As for faith i had faith and it was rewarded by being given knowing. Now i Know do you understand i know all history is foreknown because i have also been given visions of the future... No i am not on LSD or acid LOL I have experienced my own future from a first persons perspective exactly as it has happened on more than one occasion i have seen portions of my own future in perfect first person perspective the same sight the same sound the same emotion like a 3 second video clip reply i have experienced my visions exactly.
I tell you the path of every atom is known from the beginning of existence to the end of existence. the length of every blade of grass that has ever existed. The time they would germinate the time they would flourish, all that would happen to them and when they would cease to be has been known since the beginning of universal time. That is how detailed the foreknowledge God has of His creation is. To try to explain it in another way. God can see all history at one time while we live in the now of time and can only see a point upon the line of history God sees the whole line in all its detail. Try to think of is as God having access to all dimensions a parallel existence encompassing our dimensions. He dwells in all dimensions while we are restricted to the ones we are in. But God has the power to give us glimpses of the future when he wills.
No stretched i am not crazy i assure you i am totally sane. My faith came from my love of the truth my love for the wonderful words of Jesus and the astounding wisdom and beauty of Gods salvation gift to all who embrace the love of the truth. I knew God was from His wisdom from His love from the out of this world wisdom contained in the bible.
James 1
5If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
All Praise The Ancient of Days
Well i gain that knowledge from God. I know that sounds ummmm like an inadequate answer but it is true. Let me tell you something i became a Christian after a friend gave me a bible and i read it. Now before that time i was a catholic actually i used to be a catholic alter boy LOL but i got over catholicisim by the time i was 16 because i knew in my mind that it was wrong. since i have read the bible i have not been inside a Church building except for a few christmas masses that i attended because of my dad and because i was still under his authority. So i have not gained my faith from indoctrination, from the thoughts of men. Now when i read the bible i came to the same impasse your described. That being how can predestination and free will co-exist. Now there are people in the christian world who follow a man called calvin, he delivered a doctrine called TULIP. Part of that is his interpretation of predestination that being that God created people to be saved and others to be burned that free will is a delusion and it is God and God only who causes one to come to the faith and causes them to believe. Now i came to this theory by myself i never even knew that someone had thought it up before i did. and the realization that there where people who where created with absolutely no chance of salvation, people who where blocked from believing in God, who's only purpose was to be hell fodder, cut me to the heart. I cried out to God to give me understanding and He did. i did not think up the explanation that i have given. No way. i am not that brilliant LOL. No it came direct from God and it came within a second. i did not know, and then i did, just like that.
So yes stretched i know your logic. i know where your coming from i was there once myself. As for faith i had faith and it was rewarded by being given knowing. Now i Know do you understand i know all history is foreknown because i have also been given visions of the future... No i am not on LSD or acid LOL I have experienced my own future from a first persons perspective exactly as it has happened on more than one occasion i have seen portions of my own future in perfect first person perspective the same sight the same sound the same emotion like a 3 second video clip reply i have experienced my visions exactly.
I tell you the path of every atom is known from the beginning of existence to the end of existence. the length of every blade of grass that has ever existed. The time they would germinate the time they would flourish, all that would happen to them and when they would cease to be has been known since the beginning of universal time. That is how detailed the foreknowledge God has of His creation is. To try to explain it in another way. God can see all history at one time while we live in the now of time and can only see a point upon the line of history God sees the whole line in all its detail. Try to think of is as God having access to all dimensions a parallel existence encompassing our dimensions. He dwells in all dimensions while we are restricted to the ones we are in. But God has the power to give us glimpses of the future when he wills.
No stretched i am not crazy i assure you i am totally sane. My faith came from my love of the truth my love for the wonderful words of Jesus and the astounding wisdom and beauty of Gods salvation gift to all who embrace the love of the truth. I knew God was from His wisdom from His love from the out of this world wisdom contained in the bible.
James 1
5If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
All Praise The Ancient of Days
stretched said:
How shall I explain ...
When I sit there with my son on my knee and I read him a story we both share the story. If I were to read it on my own it would still have the same meaning but I would be missing something. The something I would be missing would be the wide-eyed look on my childs face as I get to the part about the monster. As I see his expectations I put more effort into the story to make it just the best that I can and in doing so I enjoy the story all the more myself. It is good for both of us. The spirit between us is love, I love my child, he loves me, we both love the story. God is love.
So answer me this ...
Because I am in love, does this exclude my son or is the love made greater through my son?
Yo Adstar,
Thanks for your honest response. Strange as it may seem, I can absolutely relate to what you are voicing. In my experience, mainstream religions obstruct the view you have defined above. I would neccesarily substitude your understanding of "god" for my understanding of god. But the god of my understanding could never have a "name", nor a book filled with questionable integrity. I concede to a certain amount of "wisdom" in the Bible, but then there are many works claimed by man, who are filled with vastly more 'wisdom".
Allcare.
Thanks for your honest response. Strange as it may seem, I can absolutely relate to what you are voicing. In my experience, mainstream religions obstruct the view you have defined above. I would neccesarily substitude your understanding of "god" for my understanding of god. But the god of my understanding could never have a "name", nor a book filled with questionable integrity. I concede to a certain amount of "wisdom" in the Bible, but then there are many works claimed by man, who are filled with vastly more 'wisdom".
Allcare.