Who is brainwashed?
- Thread starter moonman
- Start date
Well that was meant to comeout with a hint of sarcasm.
I get mighty pissed with people such as this, but I figure it's hopeless to change their ways, so why not make an attempt at courtesy*?
*Probably just folly anyhow, but what the heck, why get worked up about one ignorant individual.
Hehe, yep, "brainwashing" is a term I see thrown around all the time when speaking of religious people. I too wish to be objective about this, so here is my take on it.
Yes, brainwashing occurs. Yes, brainwashing occurs in religious families. No, not all believers in a God have been brainwashed.
The simple fact is, that if someone is intelligent enough, and is very capable of understanding difficult concepts, then such a person wouldn't be easily brainwashed. Anyone of this type will either come to a rational conclusion concerning whether or not God exists.
Another simple fact is that if one isn't highly intelligent, and has difficulty understanding difficult concepts, then such a one is much easier to brainwash. This isn't to say that all such people are brainwashable, just that such people are much easier to brainwash.
It seems to me that such brainwashing, while it may be in good intention, does occur in religious families and communities. This is because the person involved is either unable to understand the arguments for or against, or has chosen to ignore the arguments for or against. Likewise, brainwashing may also occur, and I believe it does occur, outside of religious communities and families. This isn't to say that one is brainwashed to be an athiest. Rather, one may be brainwashed to doubt everything. Such brainwashing may not necessarily take place by outside influences constantly saying, "doubt everything." Rather, such brainwashing may occur simply be perception of elsewise activity (in other words, the people around him always doubt). See, brainwashing doesn't just occur when someone repeats a given idea over and over to someone. Brainwashing, in most cases, occurs simply by an individual not experiencing anything outside of a given standard of action/thought/belief/etc... Ergo, one may argue that some athiests are (and certainly not all, just as not all religious are) brainwashed to be athiest simply because everyone around them that they have every trusted to be good and honest people (and even otherwise) were atheist. That the environment that they experienced throughout their years of development into maturity was entirely atheistically oriented. This form of argument does have merit. Just as the argument concerning the brainwashing of religious has merit. However, brainwashing does not only occur in regards to the question of God, but brainwashing occurs in most areas of life. From history, to science, to morality. I am not saying that anyone in particular on these boards has been brainwashed, so please don't take offense in my saying this. To me it just seems that this is a simple occurrance that happens everyday, with respect to any given field of knowledge.
Yes, brainwashing occurs. Yes, brainwashing occurs in religious families. No, not all believers in a God have been brainwashed.
The simple fact is, that if someone is intelligent enough, and is very capable of understanding difficult concepts, then such a person wouldn't be easily brainwashed. Anyone of this type will either come to a rational conclusion concerning whether or not God exists.
Another simple fact is that if one isn't highly intelligent, and has difficulty understanding difficult concepts, then such a one is much easier to brainwash. This isn't to say that all such people are brainwashable, just that such people are much easier to brainwash.
It seems to me that such brainwashing, while it may be in good intention, does occur in religious families and communities. This is because the person involved is either unable to understand the arguments for or against, or has chosen to ignore the arguments for or against. Likewise, brainwashing may also occur, and I believe it does occur, outside of religious communities and families. This isn't to say that one is brainwashed to be an athiest. Rather, one may be brainwashed to doubt everything. Such brainwashing may not necessarily take place by outside influences constantly saying, "doubt everything." Rather, such brainwashing may occur simply be perception of elsewise activity (in other words, the people around him always doubt). See, brainwashing doesn't just occur when someone repeats a given idea over and over to someone. Brainwashing, in most cases, occurs simply by an individual not experiencing anything outside of a given standard of action/thought/belief/etc... Ergo, one may argue that some athiests are (and certainly not all, just as not all religious are) brainwashed to be athiest simply because everyone around them that they have every trusted to be good and honest people (and even otherwise) were atheist. That the environment that they experienced throughout their years of development into maturity was entirely atheistically oriented. This form of argument does have merit. Just as the argument concerning the brainwashing of religious has merit. However, brainwashing does not only occur in regards to the question of God, but brainwashing occurs in most areas of life. From history, to science, to morality. I am not saying that anyone in particular on these boards has been brainwashed, so please don't take offense in my saying this. To me it just seems that this is a simple occurrance that happens everyday, with respect to any given field of knowledge.
good startbeyondtimeandspace said:
agreed, but 99% have.beyondtimeandspace said:
exactly, an educated adultbeyondtimeandspace said:
exactly, mostly children,beyondtimeandspace said:
exactly, again mostly childrenbeyondtimeandspace said:
doubt>think for your self use your intelligence and make up your own mind.beyondtimeandspace said:
which would make any intelligent person wonder, why they doubted, and then use that intelligence, to come to there own conclusions.beyondtimeandspace said:
agreed.beyondtimeandspace said:
theres a difference, atheist make up there own mind though sense reason and intellect.beyondtimeandspace said:
not from anyone pushing there beliefs on them.
to be brought up with an open mind, cannot be brainwashingbeyondtimeandspace said:
totally agreed with, if you are a child,or person who is easerly lead.beyondtimeandspace said:
With regards to the ungoing thing about brainwashed religious people, I found this posted link... a rather satisfying read. Oh welcome to the flock ye atheists.
Oh welcome to the flock ye atheists. I am happy that you find much agreement with my analysis of the issue, but I'm a bit distraught by the obvious bias that you take on the issue.
The first of those quotes of your last post is an entirely baseless figure, and I am loathe to think that someone as rational and educated and intelligent as yourself, as an atheist, would even propose such a number to be remotely accurate.
The second, also, is entirely inaccurate. Sure, there are definitely atheists who use sense, reason and intellect to come to the conclusions that they do. However, this isn't what you propose. You propose, by your wording (it is implied) that being atheist means that you are sensible, reasonable, and intelligent, and have made up your own mind about being athiest. This most certainly isn't the case. Yes, there are atheists such as you describe. However, there are also a great many who are atheist simply because they haven't thought about it, who don't care about it, who have been impressed upon to conclude it, etc...
The third is also strongly biased, since it assumes, again, that all atheists are open-minded, and the implication is given that if you are theistic, that you are not open-minded. Again, this is entirely baseless and inaccurate. An open-minded person, as you claim to be, would not be so biased concerning his/her beliefs.
mis-t-highs said:
The first of those quotes of your last post is an entirely baseless figure, and I am loathe to think that someone as rational and educated and intelligent as yourself, as an atheist, would even propose such a number to be remotely accurate.
The second, also, is entirely inaccurate. Sure, there are definitely atheists who use sense, reason and intellect to come to the conclusions that they do. However, this isn't what you propose. You propose, by your wording (it is implied) that being atheist means that you are sensible, reasonable, and intelligent, and have made up your own mind about being athiest. This most certainly isn't the case. Yes, there are atheists such as you describe. However, there are also a great many who are atheist simply because they haven't thought about it, who don't care about it, who have been impressed upon to conclude it, etc...
The third is also strongly biased, since it assumes, again, that all atheists are open-minded, and the implication is given that if you are theistic, that you are not open-minded. Again, this is entirely baseless and inaccurate. An open-minded person, as you claim to be, would not be so biased concerning his/her beliefs.
Q25 said:
I would rather explain it as oo+oo+oo=oo.
See, in the equation 1+1+1=1, there is a loss of actual definition. Each person of the trinity is exactly that, a person. In the concept of Trinity, there are three persons, one being. So, in the case of 1+1+1=1, the 1s on the left side of the equation are not the same as the 1 on the right side of the equation, since the 1s on the left refer to persons, and the 1 on the right refers to being. Ergo, it would be more accurate to say 1(p)+1(p)+1(p)=1(b). However, for the sake of simplicity, I would simply set the numbers to the denotation of infinity, since it too is an accurate representation of the Trinity concept.
given that about 1% of the population on this planet are atheist.(between 60 to 80 million) and the rest have some form of religion or sprituality, then I cant see how, her figure is to far off.beyondtimeandspace said:
again I cant see any flaws in her reasoning, to be an atheist is awareness you cannot be of low intelligence, you have to, have study biblical theology, not an easy task. to come to your conclusions, it is not something you dont think about.beyond said:
an agnostic maybe, is more likely to become brainwashed, as he or she is in the middle of the two and is unsure.
again I can see no flaws, how can a theist be open minded, when is mind is clouded and ruled by fantasy figures, hulcinations,and the like, there minds are not there own, they are but sheep in a flock.beyond said:
the only time I use the bible or any kind of theology is to show the theist the errors in his thinking. most of the time to no avail, once brainwashed it's hard to break the spell, it's ingrained into there being, unfortunely.
atheism is not a belief, it's the lack of belief. the right of oneself to be, the one and only ruler of ones own destiny.( not a lamb )
melodicbard
Registered Senior Member
Other than brainwashing by others, some have some degree of self-brainwash.
Pray and read the Bible before you sleep and it is like hypnosis working on your sub consciousness. They keep on telling themselves to believe in their God, the slightest doubt will be seen as a grave sin and a guilty feeling will be at work.
Any contradiction and discrepency with their beliefs are rationalized.
Not enough faith? Pray for more.
It is almost like the situation of self-prophecy.
Pray and read the Bible before you sleep and it is like hypnosis working on your sub consciousness. They keep on telling themselves to believe in their God, the slightest doubt will be seen as a grave sin and a guilty feeling will be at work.
Any contradiction and discrepency with their beliefs are rationalized.
Not enough faith? Pray for more.
It is almost like the situation of self-prophecy.
Have a read - I haven't read it yet but I sure plan to...the preacher said:
The Atheist Syndrome...
Buy it on Amazon... cheap cheap...
I know my post isn't really going in the direction of the thread but I would have to confess that I really don't believe one can be brainwashed. I think under certain circumstances people will rationalize events or ideas that are or were previously marginalized within their own reality but with self submission via rationalization I don't see how someone can be convinced of an alternate reality without consent on their part.
you've got to be kidding MarcAc, that is a complete work of fiction, written by a religious fundamentalist lunatic.(john koster)
who beliefs anybody who does'nt follow jesus, is the devils spawn.
find something with a lot more creditability.
who beliefs anybody who does'nt follow jesus, is the devils spawn.
find something with a lot more creditability.
moonman said:
I think religion is a powerful substitute for comprehension / knowledge and
seeing as people make substitutions all the time based on perceived value,
it would appear that everlasting paradise would hold great value.
1 there is no evidence for God + 1 the stories about God come from earlier stories about other God(s) = these a just stories and there are no Gods or God.whatsupyall said:
And I was raised in a typical USA family as a typical Sunday Christian. Because it wasn't forced to much on me (just normal Xian USA society) I was able to break the brianwashing and become a free thinker.
Thank Gods for that!!
hurrah to that michael.
mine was a muslim background, you can guess what that was like.
but I managed to break away, my father did'nt like it, but he respects my right to think.
however my elder brother has shuned me, his loss.
mine was a muslim background, you can guess what that was like.
but I managed to break away, my father did'nt like it, but he respects my right to think.
however my elder brother has shuned me, his loss.
Indeed. The two key points of your post robtex are self-submission via rationalization and consent.robtex said:
Believers are held up by non believers as delusional but the themselves miss the two wonderful points you have made!
Self-submission may be redefined more correctly as humility and consent may be redefined more correctly as honour for whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Thank you for your post. It was enlightenment to me.
cheers
c20