Who Created Sin?

how eactly does religion lack conformity with reason, adhering to qualities of thought such as intelligibility, coherence, consistency, order, logical structure, completeness, testability, and simplicity
be explicit if you will

How convenient for you to be able to bypass any logical reasoning with "He's beyond it all". Please don't ever say that belief in God has any aspect of rationality or logic again.

Strangely, Christians never use the arguments that I would find compelling. If I were a theist, and I was asked to explain why, I would say that I believe in God for no reason at all.
 
no, its unethical for god to create a being that has, in its very nature - urges that run in opposition to that which god regards as good.
Do you think he was being unethical when he created gravity(given the assumption that he created) Is it ok for him to create a law of nature that at times run in opposition as what God sees as good. Ex. when someone falls off a cliff, out of an airplane with no parachute, ect..

it is even more unethical for god to then expect his creation to deny those urges and choose what god has defined as "good" without any prompting, proof, or reasoning.

At the core of everyone is a set of morals...of good. ie. the innocence of a child. It is the process of sin as one ages that causes the demoralizing nature of whats good and not good in an individual. If I never knew that getting drunk solved my problems for a night, then I wouldn't have ever done it...but as you become more aware of life, pain, hurt, ect...people tend to become self-preserving and run to what makes them happy or masks their pain.

it is the most unethical however, to do all of these things and then brutally and cruelly punish your creation when it fails to do what you want it to because you designed it to want to do something else.
You ever played with Play-Doh before. The modeling clay for children. I have made a snake before. I've made a monkey and attempted a horse. The horse served all the purposes except the damn tail wouldn't stay attached even though I gave it all the help I could. I scrapped it in the end because it just wasn't working. Was I ethical to the existance of that horse? We are all made up of particles, why am I more important than the small atoms that make up me?

god would seem to me to be, if not a sadist, a totally inept creator.
And God probably views us incapable creatures of knowing/understanding his actions.
 
Quigly said:
no, its unethical for god to create a being that has, in its very nature - urges that run in opposition to that which god regards as good.

There is as CS Lewis said 'a deeper magic'. That is 'love'. If you accept a being 'God' who is Love then it is not surprising that He would want beings to love Him. You cannot force someone to love you. This is a contradiction. This means you have to give your created beings (people and angels) free will. Once you have done that, there is of course the risk that they will choose wrongly but the risk is still worth the reward (as all parents will know as they gradually allow children more and more freedom to make their own choices).

God is omniscient and outside of time so he knew what would happen which is why he made a plan for salvation of fallen mankind (the atoning death of Jesus).

Allowing people to choose good or not to choose good does not imply the creation of a separately existing evil or sin by the being doing the allowing. This is a logical non-sequitur.

The alternative version is a set of automatons who can never do anything of their own valition in case what they do is wrong. What sort of universe would that be? Would that be one that any of the contributors to this site would really want to live in?

To understand the nasty bits of this world, it has to be understood that this is the world that humanity (assisted by Satan) corrupted by making the wrong choice long ago. All actions have consequences, which can sometimes be very far reaching, particularly wrong ones, as any appreciation of history will indicate.

This is not the world of the original creation which was created by God 'very good', before people exercised their free will to corrupt it, as of course people are still doing today.

In regard to your Play Doh horse. Even that is not only the sum total of its molecules. No more than a painting is just the paint on the canvas. The horse had your idea and skill put into it to make it from the material. It became both a piece of play-doh (material) and a model of a horse (a conceptual thing). Whilst making it you were a 'creator'.

You are of course much more than that play doh horse. You have a creative mind that can produce abstract thought. You have sensibilities which can appreciate beauty, music etc. None of these things is material. They cannot be measured by the hardware of molecular matter although you need that (the brain cells) to make them work. This is like a computer which needs the hardware to run the software but the software is itself not material. It is a plan, a design a concept. It is not the media on which it is stored.

You are very much more than the computer hardware and software. You are 'most amazingly made' and for a specific reason to boot!

All the atheistic materialistic 'unimportant speck of dust' concepts are attempts to rob people of this heritage and instill into them a certain negativity, a hole that needs to be filled. It is therefore of course very useful for convincing people that they could be special, that they could 'become someone' if only they had more power, more money, bigger car, bigger house etc. etc. But any examination of the lives of people who have all these things will show that these do not satisfy. The concept is a fraud - a very great lie!


Life as a purposely designed being, working for ever better real things (such as actively loving other people by what you do) is great. I went to Mexico City last year and worked for three weeks with a Christian charity serving some of the poorest people there. It was one of the best times in my whole life! Working for people (and thus for God) is so much more satisfying than acquiring material wealth. Real Christianity (not just church going) is a real challenge. It's not for wimps but the rewards are well worth it. I can commend it to you and others!


kind regards,



Gordon.
 
Quigly said:
no, its unethical for god to create a being that has, in its very nature - urges that run in opposition to that which god regards as good.
Do you think he was being unethical when he created gravity(given the assumption that he created) Is it ok for him to create a law of nature that at times run in opposition as what God sees as good. Ex. when someone falls off a cliff, out of an airplane with no parachute, ect..

consider this: god places his creation in a world full of potential deathtraps and pitfalls, but gives the creation no inherent knowledge of the danger of such things, the creation must learn by observation. if the creation learns that falling off of a cliff means certain death, the creation has to observe something living die from falling off of a cliff. wouldn't a good and merciful creator with the best in mind for his creation attempt to somehow prevent this loss of life? why would you create something just to watch it die? why would you create an entire world and a race of beings capable of thinking and feeling and then set the two at odds with one another, unless you wished to engage your creation in a sadistic survival test so that you could observe and enjoy the outcome? how is that in any way good? if god is omnipotent, omnipresent, and infinite, how can he be benevolent and still allow suffering? god, as the creator who failed to endow his creation with a natural understanding of his wishes or the purpose and function of the world is the one who has created suffering. explain to me how that could be ethical.

it is even more unethical for god to then expect his creation to deny those urges and choose what god has defined as "good" without any prompting, proof, or reasoning.

At the core of everyone is a set of morals...of good. ie. the innocence of a child. It is the process of sin as one ages that causes the demoralizing nature of whats good and not good in an individual. If I never knew that getting drunk solved my problems for a night, then I wouldn't have ever done it...but as you become more aware of life, pain, hurt, ect...people tend to become self-preserving and run to what makes them happy or masks their pain.

there is no such thing as a biological moral imperative. there is only the development of a sense of right and wrong based on experiential and environmental evidence. a child is neither born good or evil, these are traits that develop over time, a child is innocent only by default because when born they have not had a chance to commit an evil action, and until they have a working knowledge of the difference between right and wrong, they cannot understand the positive or negative consequences of some of their actions, hence they can not hope to have an evil intent. children are not informed about good or evil by way of god endowing them with understanding of it, they derive this sense from the random circumstances of their place of birth and from the moral viewpoints of their parents and others who surround them. if you are born to a primitive tribe in the amazon rainforest, it may be "right" to kill a member of your tribe for having insulted you. it is perhaps a matter of honor, something which is held sacred to your people. the christian god does not come down from on high and inform these people that this belief is in error. in fact he does nothing at all, except possibly banish these people to hell upon their deaths for never having been baptized or following the rules that they had no idea existed to begin with. ethical? i don't think so.

it is the most unethical however, to do all of these things and then brutally and cruelly punish your creation when it fails to do what you want it to because you designed it to want to do something else.
You ever played with Play-Doh before. The modeling clay for children. I have made a snake before. I've made a monkey and attempted a horse. The horse served all the purposes except the damn tail wouldn't stay attached even though I gave it all the help I could. I scrapped it in the end because it just wasn't working. Was I ethical to the existance of that horse? We are all made up of particles, why am I more important than the small atoms that make up me?

you're comparing apples and oranges. you couldn't make the horse work correctly because you used the wrong medium to make a horse out of. however, regardless of any of that, you did not make the world from scratch first and then attempt to make a horse, fail, endow it with thoughts and feelings, and then give up on it and allow it to wander the world that you created, no longer loved or cared for by you, and endangering itself at every turn in a vain attempt to understand its purpose. i agree with your last sentence there, none of us are any more important than anything else in the world, as we are all made of the same material. religious people are the ones who posit that human life is special because god chose to create us and endow us with special intelligence and dominion over the earth. i don't believe any of that, and i'm saying that if there was a god and he did what you say he did, he is more of an evil monster than a gracious and benevolent creator.

god would seem to me to be, if not a sadist, a totally inept creator.
And God probably views us incapable creatures of knowing/understanding his actions.

thats basically it.
 
Little_Birdie said:
he is goodness, everything he created is good, those who oppose him only create a adsence, for example lucifer or eve

Help me out here,.... :confused: Eve? As I understand it Eve knew that eating the forbidden fruit would bring down the wrath of god. Fair enough, naughty girl.
But what about the people of an isolated tribe that have never seen a bible, and therefore have no knowledge of god's laws? Do they go to hell, simply because of ignorance?
 
Quigly said:
Assuming you believe in God, Who created Sin?

If you say, God created Sin, then Did he create the boundary of what is good and what is not or did he create sin in Lucifer that allowed for the dispersement of sin.

God created free will. - The ability to obey or not obey. The one who disobeys is doing the sin.

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Indicates that Satan is the father of lying.
 
spidergoat said:
How convenient for you to be able to bypass any logical reasoning with "He's beyond it all". Please don't ever say that belief in God has any aspect of rationality or logic again.

Strangely, Christians never use the arguments that I would find compelling. If I were a theist, and I was asked to explain why, I would say that I believe in God for no reason at all.

I believe in God because Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from the New Testament to me, after I did an experiment to test for the existence of God.
Felt overwhelming joy at times after becoming a Christian.
Prayed for the injured and commanded devils to leave people in Jesus' name and saw results.
Became a bible scholar, KJV version, and saw life circumstances line up with what the bible says, further affirming the truth of the KJV bible.
I know Christianity is the only true faith that God accepts.
[Note: I am referring to real Christianity that follows the New Testament as written. There are fake churches that don't, and yet claim to be Christian. - a false claim. Fake bibles on the market also that have the words changed.]
Bible indicates that if you turn from the truth of God, then you will go further into error. If you turn toward the truth of God, then more truth will be given you.
Everytime you deny God, like you do, it makes it harder for you to find heaven, and your path to hell becomes more certain.
To him who has, shall more be given. To him who has not, even what he thinks he has shall be taken from him.
 
ghost7584 said:
I believe in God because Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from the New Testament to me, after I did an experiment to test for the existence of God.
Felt overwhelming joy at times after becoming a Christian.
Prayed for the injured and commanded devils to leave people in Jesus' name and saw results.

Became a bible scholar, KJV version, and saw life circumstances line up with what the bible says, further affirming the truth of the KJV bible.

I know Christianity is the only true faith that God accepts.
[Note: I am referring to real Christianity that follows the New Testament as written. There are fake churches that don't, and yet claim to be Christian. - a false claim. Fake bibles on the market also that have the words changed.]

Bible indicates that if you turn from the truth of God, then you will go further into error. If you turn toward the truth of God, then more truth will be given you.

Everytime you deny God, like you do, it makes it harder for you to find heaven, and your path to hell becomes more certain.
To him who has, shall more be given. To him who has not, even what he thinks he has shall be taken from him.

*************
M*W: You need to see a psychiatrist. You're having hallucinations. The mind is a powerful thing. You wanted to see this vision of JC, so your mind made it happen. No big deal. Everything you stated above, you created it in your mind, and although it's not real or factual to anyone else, I can see where it would be real to you.

Secondly, a "bible scholar" wouldn't rely on the KJV for any factuality.

With all your mentally created visions of God and JC, I'm afraid you will never find heaven, either. At best, you will find the appropriate medication for all your hallucinations.
 
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: You need to see a psychiatrist. You're having hallucinations. The mind is a powerful thing. You wanted to see this vision of JC, so your mind made it happen. No big deal. Everything you stated above, you created it in your mind, and although it's not real or factual to anyone else, I can see where it would be real to you.

Secondly, a "bible scholar" wouldn't rely on the KJV for any factuality.

With all your mentally created visions of God and JC, I'm afraid you will never find heaven, either. At best, you will find the appropriate medication for all your hallucinations.
my thoughts exactly.
 
Who Created Sin?

Those who sought to rule, manipulate, force their ideas upon ignorant masses, created "sin" in order to manipulate, force their will with authorative force from a "divine" ruler.

Godless.
 
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Quigly said:
Assuming you believe in God, Who created Sin?

I am having a bit of trouble understanding your question. If I were asked, "what is sin?" I would respond, "Sin is not following God's laws." I can't seem to make your question make sense by substituting the definition. Who created a non-action?

Can you define sin in a way in which the question makes sense?
 
u can't create light without dawkness.

ghost7584 said:
God created free will. - The ability to obey or not obey. The one who disobeys is doing the sin.

wrong. the one who first sinned is the one who created the ability to disobey!
 
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