Who come first the theist or the atheist

Of course, no matter how you slice it, no matter which definition you want to choose(from the dictionary, of course, as personal definitions are virtually always useless or worse), humans predate theism. Since all humans are born atheists we can then conclude that atheism predates theism. In fact, such a conclusion is logically the only valid one we can come to given what the facts are.

While I can agree that atheism(obviously) predates theism, I can't quite accede to the notion that definitely "humans predate theism". I would say (without wanting to give any theists false hope (I don't think this does; it simply opens up an interesting thread of thought; which we atheists are more than up to exploring)) that Neanderthals showed signs of burial ritual which could infer some kind of propensity to deity belief (haven't studied this area sufficiently). Some would say that Neanderthals were humans of a different kind, and I would support that.

As to other evidence; I do believe that there are no artifacts or evidence to support the notion that supernatural belief existed before Homo sapiens, and certainly not Homo sapiens sapiens, bar Neanderthals which were themselves a separated (possibly), advanced branch and human in their own right. But due to the fact Neanderthals open up the possibility, can we say with one hundered percent certainty that "humans predate theism"? I think we can say "hominids predate theism" with more of a degree of certainty.

I don't believe this alters the argument here though.

Where is the line drawn between "Human" and "Animal"? Is it possible that something we believe to have been an "Animal" could comprehend the idea that something made the world/environment/ecosystem said individual inhabited? I would suggest that theism is a dead duck without language to spread teachings and ideas so would agree that language predates theism. So we just have to figure out when higher-complex intercommunications began in hominids . . .

If we say that less advanced hominids were more primitive and yet still "human" then the possibility is swaying in your direction. I suppose it comes down to where one draws the boundaries of definition (again). What is the standard definition of "Human"?

Maybe you are right :)

But I would suggest, as a scientist, it isn't certain without more evidence? (though of course definitions can alter the corollary.)

Oh, and thanks for the interesting direction :p
 
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While I can agree that atheism(obviously) predates theism, I can't quite accede to the notion that definitely "humans predate theism".... that Neanderthals showed signs of burial ritual

Now we need to all take a blood test to see which (evidently theists) are of 100% Homo sapiens sapiens and which (evidently atheists) carry the 3% (or so) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis

with that as a cue...


@all "theist first" claimants:

Here is one of the oldest petroglyphs from the Neolithic period, depicting an ideation that crosses a bison with a human. Again, theism is not at the earliest roots of religion:

240px-Gabillou_Sorcier.png
 
Some would say that Neanderthals were humans of a different kind, and I would support that.
The convention of biologists in English-speaking countries is to define "human" as any species in genus Homo. This includes the more-or-less contemporaries H. sapiens, neanderthalensis and floresiensis, as well as the ancestral species H. heidelbergensis and gautengensis, and potentially an alphabet-soup of fossils that may or may not be other species and may or may not be in our genus.

This is a convenient categorization, since in addition to close genetic relationship that presumably would have allowed the species to interbreed (Neanderthals and sapiens clearly did), it also limits the name "human" to apes with at least half of our cranial capacity of one liter.

To distinguish us from all other human species, H. sapiens are referred to as "modern humans." Earlier ancestral species in other genera such as Australopithecus and Ardipithecus are called hominids. Going back up the taxonomic tree to the next-lowest point at which other branches of the Primate order have survived, the two species of gorilla, the two species of chimpanzee and humans are called hominins.
As to other evidence; I do believe that there are no artifacts or evidence to support the notion that supernatural belief existed before Homo sapiens, and certainly not Homo sapiens sapiens, bar Neanderthals which were themselves a separated (possibly), advanced branch and human in their own right. But due to the fact Neanderthals open up the possibility, can we say with one hundered percent certainty that "humans predate theism"? I think we can say "hominids predate theism" with more of a degree of certainty.
At least one Neanderthal grave has flowers in it. (After DNA analysis, Neanderthals are now considered a separate species.) And they had music; a large flute made from a mammoth tusk was found in Europe dating far beyond the arrival of our species.
Where is the line drawn between "Human" and "Animal"?
I don't support that dichotomy. Biologically, humans are apes, primates, mammals, chordates, deuterostomes, bilateria... and animals.
Is it possible that something we believe to have been an "Animal" could comprehend the idea that something made the world/environment/ecosystem said individual inhabited?
It's hard to imagine that the smaller brains of most other mammals could have accommodated the complexity of thought required to formulate these ideas. Dogs, for example, as bright as they are, have so little time sense that the concept of something happening very far in the past or future is for all practical purposes incomprehensible. (This is why, if you want to have a serious discussion with your dog about something he did that you don't appreciate, you'd better catch him within about twenty-three seconds. After that, whatever it was has become part of the landscape.)

The psittacines (parrots and their relatives) and of course the cetaceans (whales and dolphins) have relatively large brains (in proportion to their body size, since a lot of brain tissue is dedicated to communication with sensory and motor nerves), so they may be able to contemplate these weighty issues. I don't know much about elephants, but they are smart, social, and have long memories, so perhaps they're in this same category.
I would suggest that theism is a dead duck without language to spread teachings and ideas so would agree that language predates theism. So we just have to figure out when higher-complex intercommunications began in hominids.
The Neanderthal skull has an indentation very much like ours where the speech center of our brain resides, so it's reasonable to speculate that they could have invented speech. This was not known when Jean Auel wrote Clan of the Cave Bear so her Neanderthals communicate in sign language. But sign language is language, using our already well-developed hands and fingers instead of our amazingly complex vocal organs (our larynx is an anatomical nightmare, the reason we can't breathe and swallow at the same time like most mammals), and today two non-human species of ape have been taught to use it.

As to the timing of the invention of language, they thoughtlessly left us no recordings so we can only guess. An intriguing hypothesis offered by linguists is that spoken language was the key technology that allowed modern humans to migrate successfully out of Africa, after a few previous expeditions left evidence of their exodus but no descendants. It certainly makes sense that the enhanced ability to plan, organize and pass information from one generation to the next might have been the resource needed to survive in a region where everything was different. If this hypothesis is correct (we're still searching for that CD), then speech was invented before 60KYA, when the first group of San explorers made it all the way to Australia and left a few colonies along the southern coast of Asia.
If we say that less advanced hominids were more primitive and yet still "human" then the possibility is swaying in your direction. I suppose it comes down to where one draws the boundaries of definition (again). What is the standard definition of "Human"?
As noted earlier, all Homo species, whose brain sizes are of the same order of magnitude. Homo sapiens, "Man the wise." It's hard to be wise with a small brain.
 
(we're still searching for that CD)
Maybe the vinyl in back. Then there's the 45s. Wait, maybe wax cylinders...
Would you settle for a mock petroglyph? On sale now, free if you can show your Atheist Club card! (not available in all grottos) :cool:

then speech was invented before 60KYA, when the first group of San explorers made it all the way to Australia and left a few colonies along the southern coast of Asia.
So what you're saying is, silence precedes theism.
So Buddhism came first! :p

Seriously: can you expound on the notion that early Jews were polytheists?
 
As noted earlier, all Homo species, whose brain sizes are of the same order of magnitude. Homo sapiens, "Man the wise." It's hard to be wise with a small brain.

If one defines "wise" as having extraordinary and useful knowledge while able to pass it on to others, I think wisdom is something that occurs in a good number of species with 'small brains'.
 
One of the usual concepts about God is that everything is coming from God.
Given this understanding, it is not possible that some things would come from God, and others would not.
So trying to show that x is from God, but y isn't, is misguided from the onset.

People seem to have trouble accepting the truth that imagination is responsible for every single (except maybe one) attribution of things to God. That is why I propose that nothing we know of, except possibly some type of cosmic beginning, is from God.
 
If one defines "wise" as having extraordinary and useful knowledge while able to pass it on to others, I think wisdom is something that occurs in a good number of species with 'small brains'.

The elephant, as large as its brain is, can't tell me where I left my car keys.
Size isn't everything?
 
The elephant, as large as its brain is, can't tell me where I left my car keys.
Size isn't everything?

But an elephant can discover something that benefits him and then share it with its group.
I'm sure you are familiar with the famous Blue Tit example. If you aren't, google "blue tits milk bottles".
There are lots of examples like this.

Oh, and, by the way, no one here can tell you where your car keys are.
And I'm sure an elephant could show you where you left your car keys if it saw where you put them.
 
People seem to have trouble accepting the truth that imagination is responsible for every single (except maybe one) attribution of things to God. That is why I propose that nothing we know of, except possibly some type of cosmic beginning, is from God.

God is unknowable.

When wynn said...

One of the usual concepts about God is that everything is coming from God.

...I was left with the idea that all these things that early people were doing (shamanism, animal worship, totems, fetishes, animism, polytheism, pantheism) are then necessarily emanating from wynn's God.

It still doesn't put theism first, it just assigns the reason for atheism to the Divine Interloper.
 
So IOW you are only willing to concede god's (non-imaginary) existence at the point of your personal revelation (never mind whatever personal revelation there may be by others in the said field) ?

That is the only way that I can accept because every source known from people has always been defective, whether they say it is from God or not. If God can't reveal God's existence to me, there is no other way to get around human imperfection--mine and others'. Yet, there unfortunately is no guarantee that I wouldn't be hallucinating; yet again, it is still the only possible way.
 
"Starting the universe" doesn't qualify. The definition of "universe" is "everything that exists." If God exists, then he is part of the universe. He cannot have created himself. The theists dance around that one and say, "Well he has his own much larger supernatural universe in which he can do these things."

Sure okay dude. Then where did that one come from?

The universe is what we know after the apparent Big Bang. That might not be all that is or was.
 
And they're free to do so if they want to, but that doesn't change the fact that a person who lacks a belief in one or more gods(or who can't believe and thus lacks belief by default) is still an atheist by definition. You may not like it, but that's reality.

Reality according to Arioch perhaps, but I'm not sure why I should accept you as my authority.

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"Atheism is ostensibly the doctrine that there is no God. Some atheists support this claim by arguments. But these arguments are usually directed against the Christian concept of God, and are largely irrelevant to other possible gods. Thus much Western atheism may be better understood as the doctrine that the Christian God does not exist."
Oxford Guide to Philosophy p.64

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"Atheism. Disbelief in the existence of any GODS or of God. This may take the form of (a) dogmatic rejection of specific beliefs, e.g. of THEISM, (b) skepticism about all religious claims, or (c) agnosticism, the view that humans can never be certain in matters of so-called religious knowledge (e.g. whether God exists or not). An atheist may hold belief in God to be false, or irrational, or meaningless."
The Penguin Dictionary of Religions pp. 53-4

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"Atheism. Denial of the existence of god. Broadly conceived, it indicates the denial of any principle or being as worthy of divinity. Specific meanings vary widely in accordance with the conception of god that is denied."
The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions p.76

___________________________

"According to the most usual definition, an "atheist" is a person who maintains that there is no God, that is, that the sentence "God exists" expresses a false proposition. In contrast, an agnostic maintains that it is not known or cannot be known whether there is a God, that is, whether the sentence "God exists" expresses a true proposition. On our definition, an "atheist" is a person who rejects belief in God, regardless of whether or not his reason for the rejection is the claim that "God exists" expresses a false proposition. People frequently adopt an attitude of rejection toward a position for reasons other than it is a false proposition. It is common among contemporary philosophers, and indeed it was not uncommon in earlier centuries, to reject positions on the ground that they are meaningless. Sometimes too, a theory is rejected on such grounds as that it is sterile or redundant or capricious..."
Encyclopedia of Philosophy Paul Edwards ed., 1st ed. vol.I , p. 175

Arioch said:
And there's a good reason why we dislike pointless semantics like that, the only reason to bring them up is to obfuscate the topic under discussion and make seeing the issues impossible.

Most of the disagreement in this thread has revolved around disagreements about what the word 'atheist' means.

It also tends to close down communication completely as those advancing semantic arguments invariably follow them with their own personal definitions which they then refuse to budge even an inch from(see Wynn's thread about religious violence for many wonderful examples of this behavior).

I just quoted from the articles on 'atheism' from four widely used reference works.

Of course, no matter how you slice it, no matter which definition you want to choose(from the dictionary, of course, as personal definitions are virtually always useless or worse), humans predate theism. Since all humans are born atheists we can then conclude that atheism predates theism. In fact, such a conclusion is logically the only valid one we can come to given what the facts are.

So how do you refute Wynn's observation in post #2? Insisting that 'atheism just means lack of belief in god(s)' (however god(s) are defined) and that lack of belief precedes belief, raises the new question of why we should accept your chosen definition of 'atheism' over the definitions that I just quoted up above. If we accept them instead of going with your definition, then Wynn might very well be correct.

I tried to straddle that difference in my first post in this thread (#5 as I recall, somewhere back there) by employing the familiar distinction between 'weak atheism' (your definition pretty much) and 'strong atheism' (the definitions that I quoted).

See, the problem with your definition [of theism] is that it really doesn't mean anything because it's too inclusive. According to how you define theism we could easily show that most(if not all) species of mammal as well as many species of birds would be considered theists as they all engage in agency detection and all of them respond to false positives(assuming an agent when there is none). So, according to you, all pet dogs and cats are theists. Should we "respect" their freedom of religion then? LOL!

I'm not sure that animals without speech and fairly sophisticated powers of cognition can form explicit ideas of hidden intelligent wills and agents behind events. They certainly wouldn't be naming them or teaching others of their kind about them socially. As we move down the phylogenetic tree to simpler and simpler organisms, at some point they will just be detecting patterns in events, as opposed to imaginatively modeling intentions that might be motivating the patterns.

But yeah, I do think that human religiosity evolved along with the rest of our human cognitive repertoire, and it's highly likely that there are what we might call religion-precursors in animal psychology, cognitive tendencies similar to those underlying religion in humans, just as the rudiments of many other human behaviors can be found in animals. (We are more similar than we sometimes like to admit.) I take a very naturalistic approach to the psychology of religion.
 
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But an elephant can discover something that benefits him and then share it with its group.
I'm sure you are familiar with the famous Blue Tit example. If you aren't, google "blue tits milk bottles".
There are lots of examples like this.

Oh, and, by the way, no one here can tell you where your car keys are.
And I'm sure an elephant could show you where you left your car keys if it saw where you put them.

Thanks that was interesting. Amazing really. I absolutely agree with your notions of animal learning. Elephants emote and socialize almost unlike any other species. Certain birds have certainly shown the uncanny ability to solve problems in pursuit of food. It's really phenomenal, and so fascinating that we have inherited various elements of primitive brain function only to arrive in our present state of consciousness, motive and reason.

I only meant to point out that brain size is not the sole measure of mental capacity, or elephants and whales would be posting here. I've always thought that was kind of silly, to equate brain power with size. People with big heads are notorious for not doing so well in school. Not because of brain size, but because they were big people who were more interested in sports. I also understand that neither you nor Fraggle are coming from that perspective.

All of this remotely relates to the thread topic because we see that the search for a "first" religion will eventually lead to the search for a "first"mind, and from there to the subject of (lower) animal intelligence.
 
That is the only way that I can accept because every source known from people has always been defective, whether they say it is from God or not. If God can't reveal God's existence to me, there is no other way to get around human imperfection--mine and others'. Yet, there unfortunately is no guarantee that I wouldn't be hallucinating; yet again, it is still the only possible way.
then for a start you are not talking about god being imaginary - you are talking about not accepting the work of existing authorities on the subject ... and secondly, you have just made the task practically epistemologically impossible for you. Any top end knowledge claims where one insists on re-inventing the wheel practically makes advancement in the said field close to zero
 
then for a start you are not talking about god being imaginary - you are talking about not accepting the work of existing authorities on the subject ... and secondly, you have just made the task practically epistemologically impossible for you. Any top end knowledge claims where one insists on re-inventing the wheel practically makes advancement in the said field close to zero

Indeed, I suggest forget 99.9999% of what has been written about God.
 
@Yazata-

Re: citing the definition of "atheist" from several sources.

No doubt in common modern speech we rarely have reason to characterize the "religion" of Neolithic people, or to speculate about the ideations of Sumerians at the dawn of history, and so on. So the word, in frequency of use tends only to refer to denial of God, as you showed.

As also has been pointed out, the word has a literal etymology that is probably best conveyed as "godless". You will find this meaning also but not likely in the same frequency as the first one.

Furthermore, as I pointed out in our earlier dialogue, in perhaps its earliest usage, the Apology, "atheist" is applied to label the denier of the Athenian pantheon, who goes on to demonstrate, ironically, a convincingly natural familiarity with, and belief in, Theos. That is, before monotheism has taken root in Athens, i.e., before theism existed, there was at least one man who they called an atheist.

Regardless of all of the above, when the thread opened it was on the proposition that theism and atheism must each have a "mother" or "father", so the original intent was the pursuit of the beginning of both ideas - belief in God and the counterposition - without specifying which definition of atheism we should refer to.

It was not important to the point of view of the OP. It only became important (purportedly) when post #2 hijacked the thread.

Going back to the intent of post #1, then, we are led to an inquiry into the beginnings of things. What did early civilizations hold as sacred? Or was there an absence of sacred belief? This would be the most logical direction to go.

We have since begun to explore those routes, only to have an obstinate reactionary response trying to drag us down into the sinkhole of post #2. That was my specific objective in trouncing it with the Apology . It needs to take a long winter's nap and not rear its ugly head until the curious reader wanders back into the other thread from whence it came.

There is a time and place for splitting hairs over definitions, and this is why lawyers tend to do so up front, to avoid the semantics skirmishes and scuttlebut. Our OP is not demonstrating native proficiency in English, and doesn't seem to care about this issue. It was a broader question.

So while I suspect you will probably disagree with me, I still think we are asked to determine which state of consciousness came first--Monotheism, or ANYTHING else.

In other words, the theists are simply asking the atheists to prove that theism was not the first of all teleological ideation. It is a question designed to validate religion in an anthropological light, as compared to the other sciences where there is generally nothing to say about the question.

This is why I say: jettison post #2, and move ahead to the question: what do we know about ancient history in regard to the earliest roots of religions?
 
Indeed, I suggest forget 99.9999% of what has been written about God.
then that percentage rate also acts as a likelihood of failure

What to speak of examining top end claims, one cannot even get admittance to top end universities by adopting such a method.

:shrug:
 
then that percentage rate also acts as a likelihood of failure

What to speak of examining top end claims, one cannot even get admittance to top end universities by adopting such a method.

:shrug:

This all is supposed to be divine and those are humans' ways of communicating what we highly regard.
 
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