Who belives in what ?

Who belives in what ?

  • I am christian !!

    Votes: 10 25.6%
  • I am an atheist or agnostic !!

    Votes: 27 69.2%
  • I have another faith or belief !!

    Votes: 2 5.1%

  • Total voters
    39
C7,

Yes, but to atheists, like Cris, it is ridiculous.
Probably not the term I’d use, but I have in the past here offered the idea that we might all eventually evolve into a single all-knowing intelligence, take control of time and then realize it was really us that created the universe – an infinite loop – perhaps one time we will get things right.

But no not ridiculous simply not credible when an infinite universe satisfies the question without the need to introduce unnecessary supernatural fantasies.

They are real things in story form.
No. They often refer to some historic figures and places but the substance is not real – miracles do not happen – resurrections do not occur – gods have never been discovered.

How would you explain advanced physics, like quantum mechanics, to a child? You would simplify it so that they understand it.
There is a major difference between simplifying facts and creating entertaining fiction. Understand that the major form of entertainment 2000 years ago among a largely illiterate population were the storytellers and mythmakers. Tales of heroes, of gods, of saviors, were rife, as these were the things that inspired the imagination of the people and their hopes. Today we have Star Wars and the Lord of the Rings. But it is a credit to those early mythmakers that their ignorant audiences often couldn’t tell the difference between fiction and what might be real – and hence those ancient myths have been propagated through to today as modern religions – still being bought by a largely ignorant mass.

That's what the ancients did, they took the highest truths and converted them into simple form, which can later be converted back to their original form by the awakened.
Afraid not – they were just re-hashes of older myths and stories but updated and adjusted. For example the gospel of Mark was the first gospel to be written: It is somewhat plain and lacks the elaboration of Mathew for example. The later gospels borrowed heavily from Mark and added some further special effects – like any good fiction writers.

You don't have to believe in it. It is the role of consciousness to repel, otherwise, if you accepted everything, you could not remain the person you love, you would evolve with infinite speed and become unconscious.
That is just gibberish.
 
What a laugh that atheists try to inflate their numbers by such a biased poll.

Redo the poll with a separate vote for either atheist or agnostic.

Then you'll see more realistic balance among the groups.
 
Cris said:
Probably not the term I’d use, but I have in the past here offered the idea that we might all eventually evolve into a single all-knowing intelligence, take control of time and then realize it was really us that created the universe – an infinite loop – perhaps one time we will get things right.

We will not evolve much in appearance. Our races will blend into one. We will become all-knowing and we will have a bigger head, like they had in the past. We created the universe, but not with our bodies, that would be impossible and it wouldn't explain anything.

But no not ridiculous simply not credible when an infinite universe satisfies the question without the need to introduce unnecessary supernatural fantasies.

But then there would be no cause to the existence of matter and energy. I think there must be a cause in order to be an effect.

No. They often refer to some historic figures and places but the substance is not real – miracles do not happen – resurrections do not occur – gods have never been discovered.

It wasn't that kind of a resurrection, not a physical one. It just means that Jesus attained nirvana, full knowledge of the self. Gods are only representations of things, natural powers and such. They're not beings.

Tales of heroes, of gods, of saviors, were rife, as these were the things that inspired the imagination of the people and their hopes.

Is it false only because it came from the imagination? Didn't everything come from the imagination?

Today we have Star Wars and the Lord of the Rings.

Such stories are copies of the real things. Not everything about them is entirely false only because they are stories. I don't know if pure fiction exists, it's possible to find real meaning in everything.
 
Cris said:
But this transition didn’t occur because of sciforums though, right?

No. Sciforums is not a hostile environment for atheists, though you could see some transitions on religious communities. But atheism is just the other side of the spiral. It's not the reality, the reality is in the center.

4. Religious faith has absolutely no value or substance (it is simply belief without proof).

Religious faith has value and substance for some people.

8. Truth is likely far more bizarre than the limited ideas of religions.

Truth is emptiness.

9. Einstein and Darwin became atheists.

What does it matter?

10. Science establishes real knowledge, religion has never provided any.

Science only deals with visible things, effects, they don't know the causes.

Religious ideas and other spiritual concepts can be seductively attractive.

Can they? I've never found anything attractive about them.

In moments of weakness I can understand how you could give up and imagine something nicer – tough – that’s life – learn to deal with it.

But I have never gained any hope from religions, I only started to understand them. They started to make sense and I found many interresting things in them. You know, it was also suffering which made me first realize that there is no God. Then more suffering made me realize that there is something which people call God, but it's just the self within us, so in a sense you could also say that there is no God.

Suffering makes people weak so that they become more open to ideas. People constantly defend themselves because they want to remain what they are. To defend oneself also means to limit oneself, to one single person and a set of ideas. But if you would suffer much, you would become more open to things, even to things which sounded ridiculous before. People evolve slow because they defend themselves, because they pick sides, religions and ways. We defend ourselves even from true things.
 
C7,

But then there would be no cause to the existence of matter and energy. I think there must be a cause in order to be an effect.
To have an effect something must exist to offer the cause. This implies there can be no beginning. I.e. matter and energy, in some form must have always existed.

If you suggest a creator as a first cause then within the concept of cause and effect you must answer what caused the creator. The introduction of a creator concept doesn’t answer the question.

An infinite universe is the simplest and most credible answer, since to introduce a creator requires the need for a supernatural realm for which there is no precedent. We also know from physics that nothing ever appears to be created or destroyed, but merely transforms into one form or another. This further suggests the universe is infinite.
 
Einstuck,

What a laugh that atheists try to inflate their numbers by such a biased poll.

Redo the poll with a separate vote for either atheist or agnostic.

Then you'll see more realistic balance among the groups.
I would argue that agnostics are atheists. Where atheism is defined as the absense of theistic belief. Since agnostics also lack theistic belief then they are a subset of atheists.
 
Cris,

The problem is that most people don't understand what a cause is. I think the universe is created and caused into being in the presence, not in the past. A cause in the past would be illogical. The past does not exist, neither does the future. Only the presence exists, but it has no duration, so it is non-existent, it only separates the illusional past and future. Why would movement in time exist in "reality", it's just sensation

I.e. matter and energy, in some form must have always existed.

So there is no explanation for why this exist? Don't you find it illogical?

If you suggest a creator as a first cause then within the concept of cause and effect you must answer what caused the creator.

The creator is nothingness (unity, goal, presence), nothingness needs no cause. Nothingness needed to create the illusion of matter otherwise nothingness wouldn't be logical and it wouldn't be "nothingness" (more correctly: unity, dimensionless oneness)

An infinite universe is the simplest and most credible answer,

Answer? It doesn't answer anything. Visible things can't be infinite. Can you imagine matter/energy that has always existed? Always? It doesn't sound logical to me. Everything is so illogical for physicists because they think matter and other sensations are "physical real things" (separate from the mind)

And if the universe is not caused, do causes exist? Have you ever seen a cause? Show me a visible cause and I will tell why it is not a cause.

If being was logical, we wouldn't ask questions. It must be "illusion" (nothingness in disguise). Nothingness is more logical. It hurts so much that people don't understand. Why must they stop asking why? Why can't they go deeper? They would find that the universe is not made of anything. It is non-existent, only nothingness exists. There are no questions anymore. There are no answers. There is only being, and it is non-existent.
 
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C7,

I think the universe is created and caused into being in the presence, not in the past.
This is semantic nonsense.

A cause in the past would be illogical.
Under macro conditions as opposed to quantum states the conditions for an event must be present before the event. The passage of time must then occur for the event to be realized. The cause and the event occur at two different states of time.

The past does not exist, neither does the future.
You are merely messing with semantics and language. Events that have occurred were prior to current time; events that will occur will be in post current time.

Only the presence exists,
No. The statement has no meaning. Matter and energy exist. The passage of time indicates the continuation of existence of said matter or energy. Time is merely the changing state of matter and energy.

So there is no explanation for why this exist? Don't you find it illogical?
Why must there be a reason for anything to exist? It is only illogical if you can prove that everything must have a purpose. I see no reason to support that.

The creator is nothingness (unity, goal, presence), nothingness needs no cause.
Then it is ineffectual in causing anything if it is nothing. You are tying yourself into the knots of meaningless mystical gibberish.

Nothingness needed to create the illusion of matter otherwise nothingness wouldn't be logical and it wouldn't be "nothingness" (more correctly: unity, dimensionless oneness)
Utter gibberish.

“ An infinite universe is the simplest and most credible answer, ”

Answer? It doesn't answer anything. Visible things can't be infinite.
Something infinite must exist otherwise nothing could have begun. Whatever state the universe has experienced, that it is infinite is the simplest explanation of why it exists now.

Can you imagine matter/energy that has always existed? Always?
Why not?

It doesn't sound logical to me.
Then give it more thought.

Everything is so illogical for physicists because they think matter and other sensations are "physical real things" (separate from the mind)
Nothing other than the physical has ever been detected. Science operates on what can be observed and detected. There is nothing illogical with that. The mind is also entirely physical.

And if the universe is not caused, do causes exist? Have you ever seen a cause? Show me a visible cause and I will tell why it is not a cause.
Eat some bad fish (the cause) and you will soon vomit (the effect).

If being was logical, we wouldn't ask questions.
Nonsense. The state of being is independent of knowledge.

It hurts so much that people don't understand.
That’s because you are out of phase with reality and everyone else.

Why must they stop asking why?
I don’t.

Why can't they go deeper?
Somethings lack any further depth. Straining to find something that doesn’t exist will be painful.

They would find that the universe is not made of anything.
The science of physics would disagree with you. Or do you want to talk string theory?

It is non-existent, only nothingness exists. There are no questions anymore. There are no answers. There is only being, and it is non-existent.
Gibberish. Go take some medication.
 
Cris, I broke up my last post into smaller paragaphs. It has no web reference since most of it I took from my Ancient Near East course that I'm taking right now in university (UBC).
 
Cris said:
This is semantic nonsense.

It has nothing to do with semantics. The universe is a product of the goal. Obviously, evolution and complexification can't occur by chance. There's something which draws the universe towards somewhere.

The cause and the event occur at two different states of time.

Impossible, if the effect is present, the cause is present, how else would there be an effect? A cause must be continuous because the effect is also continuous. A piece of matter exists because the resistance, the magnetic energy, keeps it from falling into unity. But to find the real cause why this piece of matter exists, one must also ask why magnetic energy behaves the way it does.

You are merely messing with semantics and language. Events that have occurred were prior to current time; events that will occur will be in post current time.

Time, the past, is a memory and the future is an expectation, they exist only in our thoughts.

Matter and energy exist.

The statement has no meaning. Physicists don't know what matter and energy is.

Then it is ineffectual in causing anything if it is nothing.

It's kind of hard to explain. There are two principles necessary for nothingness to "be" real. Nothingness must be nil and infinite. If not nil, it is something instead of nothing. If not infinite, there is something else outside to limit it. We can define Infiniteness as "the absence of any limit"; and Voidness as "the presence of every limit". Zero is infinitely limited. Infinity is not limited at all.

Try to imagine a point. Nil. And now try to imagine that this point is all. Infinite. This is only possible if, even though zero is infinite, its voidness remains distinct from its infiniteness. Distinct in order to be real. Voidness cannot be if it contains something. Since its infiniteness is, it is bound to empty itself in order to be. Nothingness must externalize the whole (nothingness) from itself so that it can contain nothing.

The only way to reject infinity is to become the center of it. Consciousness of Space is the fact of being the center of our infiniteness. Everywhere.

Something infinite must exist otherwise nothing could have begun. Whatever state the universe has experienced, that it is infinite is the simplest explanation of why it exists now.

Only nothingness can be infinite. If this "material" universe would stop, it would not be infinite, and nothingness would immidiately take it's place. It is a greater truth.

Nothing other than the physical has ever been detected. Science operates on what can be observed and detected. There is nothing illogical with that. The mind is also entirely physical.

You're right, nothing else than physical has ever been detected, but why do you not question what this "physical" is? Why not question the observation itself? Are physical things really outside yourself? If they are outside your consciousness, how can you be conscious of them?

Eat some bad fish (the cause) and you will soon vomit (the effect).

That's not a cause. You stopped asking why. To find the cause, you must go deeper. Why does a "bad fish" cause me to vomit? When you answer that, why stop? Why not answer the next question too.

The science of physics would disagree with you. Or do you want to talk string theory?

What I mean is that everything can theoretically be divided into smaller and smaller parts, so what does the universe consist of? It doesn't consist of anything. There are no indivisible particles. The only thing that cannot be divided is nothingness, the present reality, which is what they have found in the quantum world.

If you would see everything at once, if you would be conscious of everything at once, you couldn't see anything, there would only be emptiness. Being is a separation, since what you see and what you are are two different things. We separate the outside (infinity) from the inside (nothingness). This separation creates consciousness, the illusion of the universe. For there to be a feeling of existence, there must be an outside to relate to.
 
Beyond - good job - many thanks for making the extra effort.
 
Einstuck,


“ What a laugh that atheists try to inflate their numbers by such a biased poll.

Redo the poll with a separate vote for either atheist or agnostic.

Then you'll see more realistic balance among the groups. ”

I would argue that agnostics are atheists. Where atheism is defined as the absense of theistic belief. Since agnostics also lack theistic belief then they are a subset of atheists.
And I could equally claim that agnostics belong with other people having some faith in God(s). Since agnostics (in philosophy) formally only claim our ignorance of God or the impossibility of knowing God.

Whereas atheists are quite alone in insisting without unambiguous evidence pro or con that God does not even exist. This puts them in the category of religious nuts.

Agnostics on the other hand are usually just scientists and philosophers.
 
''''''--.-.-''+pp00ooikmm, 0j85ftik...

But you would already know all this if you understood the myths. The scandinavian myths of example. People think they're just tales. Everything came from Ginnungagap ("seeming emptiness"). Primordial void separating Niflheim and Muspell, the land of eternal ice and snow and the land of eternal heat and flame. All myths tell about the same things, just with different names and symbols. Christ is the self. Odin sacrifices himself to himself. He hangs himself from Yggdrasil, piercing his side with a spear.

Because two things can't be on the same place and time in the material world, matter cannot turn into spirit, it cannot come back to unity by itself... the creative principle had to born, the self, the understanding, which suffers and eternal crucifixion in space and time. The cross is a cube of matter. trinity... a pyramid... spiritual man... the snake... There's so much wisdom in the old myths. ,,,f95nytir but... i really miss the unity... ... the presence.... yin and yang... the zodiac... pharaoh... the great house... of god... the body... quetzacoatl will return...
 
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c7
you are quoting the eddas - but please remember that there are 3 eddas :

the older edda (edda Saemundar hin frodas) (edda by Saemundar the wise)
the younger edda (edda Snorri Sturlusson) (edda by Snorre Sturlasson)
the so called apocryphic edda

Originally Odin just hang on the tree to find the runes -
the sacrificing himself and beeing pierced by spear while hanging on Yggdrasil, is a story from the 13th. century - long after the norse became christians , with all the influence that comes from that fact .......
 
i see...
i don't really know anything about eddas...
i just mean that all religions talk about the same things...
it's easy to see if you reflect...
though...
it's hard to see if you refuse the goal...
 
In general the nordic mythology is pretty different - very entertaining and the gods are both good and bad - just like people !!
If you are interested in nordic mythology read the eddas and the Kalevala -
if not interested, then read Tolkien (Bilbo,lord of rings) or just see the movie - it is largely build on nordic mythology - especially Bilbo ...........
 
Cris ,

I know this poll has only been running for 40 hours - but it looks like it is not going to be a 50/50 poll this time ....

Also I am not sure, that I have to run this poll again in 2035 .......
Christians seems to be a minority allready in this forum - though this forum must be biased due to the fact of the number of educated logic scientists chatting here .......

Disclaimer: I do not think that christians are less intelligent than any other people ;)
 
If you worded you poll differently, you'd get a different answer.

Nominal Christians will tend to put themselves down as agnostic, even though they may have strong Christian bias.

Timid Christians, or Christian scientists will also post as agnostics for fear of ridicule or career reprisals.

Agnostics and Atheists are not the same at all, and should be counted separately.

Try a balanced poll, and you'll get a more accurate breakdown.
 
Einstuck - this is an anonymous poll - nobody is afraid of saying they are christians here .......

Right now Cris is trying to find out, what is the difference between agnostics and atheists in his new post - I suggest you read that one .......

I will give you a piece of advice - wait one week till further discussion have been made - and then run your own poll ,
just like YOU want it - OK :)

Then people might have found out the difference between agnostics and atheists ;)
 
Einstuck

You could simply ask : are you christian or are you not christian !!
Then there is not much room for bias ...........
 
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