Where else does the a new individual's DNA get created?

Mind Over Matter

Registered Senior Member
Where else does the a new individual's DNA (different from mother and father) get created anyway? .if not at conception? I suppose this question has no real answer, only our own opinions.

But, Any scientific evidence that human life begins at conception?
 
Where else does the a new individual's DNA (different from mother and father) get created anyway? .if not at conception? I suppose this question has no real answer, only our own opinions.

But, Any scientific evidence that human life begins at conception?



It all depends at what point you will identify what is a human and its characteristics
 
It all depends at what point you will identify what is a human and its characteristics
How about human are not only thinking beings and persons capable of loving, we are body-persons as well? Having a body which is part of material creation, manifest person’s relationship to the rest of the created reality.
 
Where else does the a new individual's DNA (different from mother and father) get created anyway? .if not at conception?

In general, a new individual's DNA is 50% copied from his mother and 50% from his father. There may be the occasional copying error that creeps in, but those are quite rare.

But, Any scientific evidence that human life begins at conception?

Yes. Conception is where the sperm meets the ovum and a new, complete set of DNA is formed for the first time. So, that's the first point at which a complete, new individual comes into existence.

It isn't, of course, where life begins. The ovum is alive to start with, and so are the sperm.
 
Hi MoM,
I'm assuming you mean the new DNA code, the genome. New DNA is made continually by dividing cells throughout your life, but it's mostly copying the same two sequences.

Mind over Matter said:
Where else does the a new individual's DNA (different from mother and father) get created anyway?
It's worthwhile noting that the DNA sequence in sperm and ova is actually different to the two sequences of parent DNA, due to recombination during meiosis.

This means that spermatids in the testicles and vas deferens, and ova in the fallopian tubes actually have to be segregated from the immune system, otherwise they will be attacked as foreign material. That is one of the reasons that vasectomy reversal has a low success rate.

So, you could say that half the new genome is made during meiosis of spermatocytes in the testicle, and half during meiosis of ova (which happens partly during ovulation, and partly during conception if I recall correctly).

But, any scientific evidence that human life begins at conception?
Like James said, human life is ongoing. Sperm are alive, ova are alive.
But the devil is in the details of definitions. I think that people tend to choose the definitions that suit their preferred conclusions.

James R said:
Yes. Conception is where the sperm meets the ovum and a new, complete set of DNA is formed for the first time. So, that's the first point at which a complete, new individual comes into existence.
Complete?
I'm not sure that a complete genome is the same as a complete individual (human, I think is implied). I guess it depends on what it means to be 'complete'. Does it mean "completed"?

Is a detailed set of blueprints a complete individual building? Clearly not... but a building has a reasonably well defined point of completion, where most multicellular organisms do not.

Danger...
Unanswerable questions abound. I'm suspicious of unanswerable questions. They suggest that they are founded on incorrect assumptions. But if those incorrect assumptions are a social foundation, it's dangerous to muck with them.
 
Please review the following for me. It does appear to be fairly well done, IMO.

Anyway that is what I'd like some feedback on. Note I am mainly interested in this one page and not in the site on the whole.

any feedback is appreciated

The Developing Human Being
By Keith Moore, and T.V.N. Persaud
7th edition, 2003

From an introductory definition section:

“Human development is a continuous process that begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (spermatozoon) from a male. Cell division, cell migration, programmed cell death, differentiation, growth, and cell rearrangement transform the fertilized oocyte, a highly specialized, totipotent cell – a zygote – into a multicellular human being. Although most developmental changes occur during the embryonic and fetal periods, important changes occur during later periods of development: infancy, childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25. Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” (p. 2)

“Zygote. This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm during fertilization. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” (p. 2)

“Embryo. The developing human during its early stages of development. The embryonic period extends to the end of the eighth week (56 days), by which time the beginnings of all major structures are present.” (p. 3)

From chapter 2: “The Beginning of Human Development: First Week”

First sentence of the Chapter: “Human development begins at fertilization when a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell – a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” (p. 16)

“Studies on early stages of development indicate that human oocytes are usually fertilized with 12 hours after ovulation. In vitro observations have shown that the oocyte cannot be fertilized after 24 hours and this it degenerates shortly thereafter.” [This would buttress our argument that sperm and ovum by themselves are parts of the parents and not entire beings. That there is a substantial change between gametes and zygotes.] (p. 31)

“The zygote is genetically unique because half of its chromosomes come from the mother and half from the father. The zygote contains a new combination of chromosomes that is different from that in the cells of either of the parents.” (p. 33)

“Cleavage consists of repeated mitotic divisions of the zygote, resulting in a rapid increase in the number of cells. The embryonic cells – blastomeres – become smaller with each cleavage division. First the zygote divides into two blastomores, which then divide into four blastomores, either blastomeres, and so on.” (p. 36-37) [We can use the cleavage discussion to show that now the embryo is operating on its own and developing.]



Human Embryology
William J. Larsen
3rd edition, 2001

“In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual” (p. 1)

“After the oocyte finishes meiosis, the paternal and maternal chromosomes come together, resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point. The newly formed embryo undergoes a series of cells divisions called cleavage as it travels down the oviduct toward the uterus. The cleavage divisions subdivide the zygote first into two cells, then into four, then into eight, and so on.” (p. 1-3)



Langman’s Medical Embryology
T. W. Sadler
9th edition, 2004

“Development begins with fertilization, the process by which the male gamete, the sperm, and the female gamete, the oocyte, unite to give rise to a zygote.” (p. 3)

“The results of fertilization are (a) restoration of the diploid number of chromosomes, (b) determination of chromosomal sex, and (c) initiation of cleavage.” (p. 48)



Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World
Lee M. Silver
New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39

"[A]nimal biologists use the term embryo to describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....

"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....

"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.

"The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. ‘Don't worry,' a doctor might say, ‘it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"

http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes.html
 
To be clear, it human life doesn't begin. Human life is continuous. Egg and sperm are human life.

What do you mean?
I mean, what time is conception exactly? 12 hours? It takes some time but usually hours maybe less sometimes? (considering that sperm has a limited span in which to work)
 
Interestingly, I have the 8th edition of the first quoted text on the shelf beside me.

You seem to be trying to get at some point, MoM. What is it?

Here is some feedback on your quote:

Yes, a fertilized egg is the start of development of one or more human beings.

No, this doesn't mean the embryo is "operating on its own".

Yes, 'pre-embryo' seems to be a political term, as are so many terms surrounding abortion and stem cell research.
 
It takes time, usually about 12 hours according to Moore & Persaud. It takes several hours for sperm to be capacitated before they can fertilize an ovum, and sperm don't survive much more than a day, maybe two.
 
mom said:
Please review the following for me. It does appear to be fairly well done, IMO.

Anyway that is what I'd like some feedback on.
That appears to be a collection of reasonably accurate short quotations taken out of context from various decent biology textbooks.

What sort of "feedback" do you expect? If that were part of a library research report of some kind, handed in as a junior high school assignment, I would give it a decent grade - probably and A, depending on the assignment.
 
No, this doesn't mean the embryo is "operating on its own".
Definition of Embryo:

An embryo (irregularly from Greek: ἔμβρυον, plural ἔμβρυα, lit. "that which grows," from en- "in" + bryein "to swell, be full"; the proper Latinate form would be embryum) is a multicellular diploid eukaryote in its earliest stage of development, from the time of first cell division until birth, hatching, or germination. In humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization (i.e. ten weeks LMP), and from then it is instead called a fetus.

The development of the embryo is called embryogenesis. In organisms that reproduce sexually, once a sperm fertilizes an egg cell, the result is a cell called the zygote that has half of the DNA of each of two parents. In plants, animals, and some protists, the zygote will begin to divide by mitosis to produce a multicellular organism. The result of this process is an embryo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo
 
any feedback is appreciated

Please be more precise about what sort of feedback you want. You posted some textbook entries. Why? What are you trying to say?


When is conception? Does that happen at the same time as the couple has relations, or does it take some time?

The precise definition of ‘conception’ will probably vary depending on the source, but you can reasonably choose from two definitions:

– fertilization of the ovum by a sperm,

or

– implantation of a fertilized embryo in the uterine wall.

Has that answered your question?
 
Definition of Embryo:

An embryo (irregularly from Greek: ἔμβρυον, plural ἔμβρυα, lit. "that which grows," from en- "in" + bryein "to swell, be full"; the proper Latinate form would be embryum) is a multicellular diploid eukaryote in its earliest stage of development, from the time of first cell division until birth, hatching, or germination. In humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization (i.e. ten weeks LMP), and from then it is instead called a fetus.

The development of the embryo is called embryogenesis. In organisms that reproduce sexually, once a sperm fertilizes an egg cell, the result is a cell called the zygote that has half of the DNA of each of two parents. In plants, animals, and some protists, the zygote will begin to divide by mitosis to produce a multicellular organism. The result of this process is an embryo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo

I'm guessing there's a point you want to make with this quote, but I'm not going to guess what that point is.

Spell it out.
 
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