Where do you think good/evil came from?

jcarl

Starving...Why Wait?
Registered Senior Member
This was a topic i thought of in school the other day. Some of us--myself included-- believe that good/evil, moral/immoral, etc. came from two beings not of this world--those two being God and Satan. I just can't see how man/something earthly could plan out what is good and what is bad without some outside help.

Now since atheists don't believe in God(I'm not creating this thread for the purpose of debating whether God exists. Leave that for other threads.)Where do they believe good/evil come from and Why?
 
i guess you did not spark enough interest but believe me, you sparked mine...

i used to readily accept the God/Satan theory just because it was pounded into my little catholic brain since i was a child... now that i am all grown up, i have a different theory... what if being a good or evil person was a learned behaviour? what if not only what you "teach" your progeny is some type of a repetitive pattern or syndrome but what "DNA" you give them also?... a vicious cycle...

and rather than just being a learned behavioural response to your environment and experiences (self-preservation or self-annihilation), you actually have a "hate" gene or a "want to hurt someone bad and see blood" gene or "gotta love" gene or "want to help" gene... and what if this predisposition to evil or good could actually somehow be transmitted at conception? like Ted Bundy's child could never be good because at the time of conception Ted was a freakin evil raping/murdering piece of shit?

hatred, envy and pride being genetically programmed would explain a lot of the fucked up people on this earth... why are they so evil, and enjoy killing and raping children you ask? because they're fuckin parents did... psycho's breed psycho's? that is kinda gross to ponder though... and just plain scary... i would hate to believe i was predestined to kill or hurt anyone because i had scum of the earth parents...

i would like to believe i was in complete control of my own actions and reactions to my existence... i would not like to think that because of "this" then ultimately "that" will occur... i don't believe in the "future" as an attainable goal and therefore all i have is this NOW and this MOMENT which i am living, it can be changed at any given time through free will and choice, thus altering my projected future anyways... so how could i forecast how i would react to a situation without somehow being exposed to it first?... like in the womb or in the scrotum... haha... yeah bad spermatozoa... bad ova... weird.. i digress...

that would explain the "bad seed" theory also, the apple does not fall far from the tree... and if your parents were low down dirty rotten bastards then you too are predestined (rather doomed) to be your mother/father's child and be exactly or near exact as them... the same fashion in which they processed information to be either good or evil by the choices they made is what you are bound to do... because they made you... sheesh... that would suck pretty bad actually...

whatcha think? plausible? what if there is no great dividing force, no divinity, no pure evil and it really is just us humans on this lonely planet out in the middle of freakin nowhere? and what if we want so desperately to accept as true the God/Satan concept in order to feel as though someone is really out there controlling everything and looking after us when in reality we are helpless pawns in a game called humanity? this ideology could mean that we are missing the forest for the trees... if we are the ultimate responsible party then by definition we are all evil and all good... we are all God and all Satan... we just have to figure out which God we choose to worship... our good God or our bad one...

D
 
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i just thought of something else related to my post above... let us say that 2 relatively good, kind loving people decide to have a child and at the age of 7 that child is molested by a neighbour... realistically the genes of the child are well in place and not alterable at this stage but what if a mutation occurs at the cellular level due to extreme shock and/or trauma? the fact that pedophiles are 9 times out of 10 victims of pedophilia themselves proves interesting... almost as though the usual normally developing sexual mindset is completely erradicated and replaced with the evil twisted one... because he was hurt he must now hurt others?

Feasible?

D
 
Hey at least I got somebody. thanks for the feedback Exotic.

So let me make sure I break your answer down correctly(tell me if I don't): Good/Evil traits are either genetic or as the result of something traumatic.

if that's true then explain this story to me: Stalin once asked his son how far he would go{torture} somebody to get some information out of them. The response: torture's wrong. The child of Stalin, a man who had Hitler 2:1 in executions, said that torture is wrong. Where does that fit in?

Also, character is from what one has learned, not the genes. Character is what affects your decision-making and what is right and wrong.

And on the pedophillia issue...by what you wrote(or my interpretation thereof) most of those who are molested as a child are set to become pedophiles. I can't think of a specific case, but I'm sure there have been many times where those molested didn't become pedophiles. Some might even have used their experience to make them even more against pedophillia.

But to get to the heart of the matter, where do these bad genes come from? It would seem to me that you could trace bad genes to something nonhuman, something like Satan. Are we all given bad genes and some of us balance it out with good genes?

Where am I going wrong?
 
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Originally posted by jcarl
Where do they believe good/evil come from and Why?

Good and evil are subjective abstract concepts. They didn't "come from" anywhere as it were, not any more than any intangible abstract does, but are merely human creations to try to help us make sense of the world.
 
So your're saying that good/evil are relative, Correct?

You say that they were created by man. Who would have the authority to make such decisions as to what is right or wrong?
 
Originally posted by jcarl
So your're saying that good/evil are relative, Correct?

You say that they were created by man. Who would have the authority to make such decisions as to what is right or wrong?

You do understand the meanings of the word relative and subjective, don't you? No one gets to make "Such decisions" (By which I suppose you mean what is objectively, or at least what will be universally recognized as good and evil). It's all in the eye of the beholder.
 
In this case, is there really a difference between subjectivity and relativity? If you believe something is right, your're inserting your feelings--subjective--but that feeling is only relative to what you believe.

I think about it like this(and you can take this however you wish): Think of a basketball game. There are certain things you can/can't do--you can't walk with the ball, you can't hack a guy, etc. These are the rules and even if you disagree with them, they still apply to you. If it wasn't that way, then here's what would happen: someone has the ball and their team is behind. So the guy pushes over the guy guarding him. That's not the right thing to do, but subjectively the guy thinks it ok b/c he wants to win. Isn't that a foolish way to do things?

What I meant by ,"such decisions," is that since you said that good/evil were human creations, I took it a bit further and said, who would really have the authority to make,"Such decisions."

I do see what your're saying. I just don't agree.
 
I think this article from Filosofem.com has a good theory. These moral concepts are ways for the weak and feeble to survive amongst the strong.


Good and Evil
Essay by A. Xeraxis

Good and evil are two of the most well respected forces on Earth. Many strive to become the servant of one, or both, and some use the terms to their advantage by fooling others into believing that they are of the ‘good’ category, and by threatening them into fearing the ‘evil’ category. Many religions employ the concept of good and evil to their advantage in this manner. It is a very clever idea, in fact, that those who are weaker, might claim to have insight into something that is far more powerful than their enemies. Their enemies will then think twice before they strike. In modern religion, it is apparently not wise to sin, for if one does so, then they will eventually end up in a place such as Hell, and be condemned to suffer eternally. This, of course, is the method that the oppressors use to gain control of the masses, and it works brilliantly. Instead of using physical force to convince others to follow them, they use fear. The word ‘sin’ is really only another term for rebellion against the oppressors. After thousands of years of belief in the concept of good and evil, it has become an accepted truth, and is no longer questioned. The concept, however, is extremely flawed.
In the early stages of human evolution, we were simply another race of animals. We spent all of our time finding food, water, shelter and suitable mates who would provide us with children. Over time, we developed the need for, and the understanding of, power. We also realized the potential of power, and sought to use it. Some used physical activity to demand respect, but others, who were weaker in this way, eventually found other means. What these individuals found, was empathy, and specifically, empathy in others. If they could cause another to feel regret for their actions, then they could avoid being attacked by many, and even seek aid from those who would have otherwise destroyed them. Eventually, standards were formed, which society lived by as a whole, and in this way, the weaker were protected from two things. They were protected from others in their society, and they were also protected from nature. Now that this new set of social principals had been formed, they needed a name. The name was ethics, and eventually, it became socially and legally unacceptable for humans to live without them.

Around the same time as the development of ethics, humans began to question their existence. They began to ask how it was that they had come to live as they were doing, and why. More importantly, they sought to find immortality, or reassurance that their lives would not amount to nothing when they died. Often, when humans become separated from their parents, or from other caretakers, they are not strong enough to be self-content in a world where they are so alone. In order to comfort themselves, they may begin to imagine that there are other, more powerful creatures who look after them. This idea also answers previously unanswerable questions, such as the origin of being, and comforts weaker humans by providing them with immortality, or ‘life after death’. Especially in the undeveloped Earth, where Science is scarce, religion can be the only possibly answer, and so, it becomes the accepted truth. While some see religion as answers to their questions, and as comfort for their problems, others see it slightly differently. They, still longing for power, see religion as a suitable tool for providing them with it, and they realize that when religion and ethics are combined, something else is created. Morals are created.

Morals, similarly to ethics, are rules by which people ‘should’ live by, which dictate the line between right and wrong. The difference is that morals are often enforced by religious beliefs, and by superstition. By using morals, the weaker could protect themselves from the stronger, by creating rules, which the stronger would be forced to live by, due to superstition, and due to their empathy for others. These morals served, also, to give the weak enough power, that they could eventually take control of millions of people, and force upon those people, their own set of rules, or, as this set of rules is also called, religion. In order to enforce a ‘right’ way of living upon people, though, there needed to be a ‘wrong’ way of living, which could be frowned upon, and feared. Due to the unforgiving tendencies of nature, and of its product, chaos, these became the foundations of the wrong way of life. It is morally wrong to kill others, and it is morally wrong to take from others in order to benefit yourself. It is morally right to keep the weaker members of society alive, rather than let them die, like nature would have, which was morally wrong. It is morally wrong to lie and to deceive, and to steal, and it is morally wrong to hate. Some of the rules, which were more important to the weak, became more important rules to everyone, and they were given the name of ‘sin’ by many religions. Once sin had been established, the ‘evil’ way of life had been established, and so had the reasons for avoiding evil. In much of the western world, these reasons were Hell, the punishment, and Satan, the frightener. All of these things became embedded in the structure of society, so that, regardless of religious status, the morals and ethics were the right way, even though they are the unnatural way, and the natural, chaotic way, became the wrong way.

Why do people listen to and abide by these morals, though? If a truthful individual was to consider them for long enough, they would surly see that it is personally detrimental to abide by them. For the morals serve as a barrier that protects the weak from the strong, and from the natural course of the universe. Humans are being fooled into protecting the weak, and by doing so, are weakening themselves. Certainly it is all right for one human to protect another who he or she loves or likes, but the current moral code insists that all humans must help each other. It also insists that killing is wrong. Why is it wrong, though? The reasons for this statement are basic. It is wrong to kill another human being because “how would you feel if you were in that situation.” The answer to this is often “I will be in that situation if I help that individual”, and this is, alone, a very important answer, but I would suggest that another, equally important answer is “Because it does not benefit me to help them.”

In nature, which we are, contrary to certain modern beliefs, certainly a part of, we can see plainly before our eyes that one creature will help another, if it benefits it personally. Obviously, we are a little more intelligent as humans, than many other animals are, but this applies to us also, and I would argue that it has been wrongfully given the title of ‘evil’, when in fact, if we were to live this way, we would be a far stronger race. In fact, by keeping the weaker alive, we are defying nature. When we waste our time, and our energy, and our resources, and our technology, on keeping alive the weak, we are slowly becoming the weak. Soon, if we are not already, we will all be weak, and we will all be miserable.

‘Evil’, as it is used in everyday modern life, relates mostly to personally beneficial and positive things, which cause others to be at a disadvantage. Indulgence, for example, is a sin that is often associated with Satan, or the ‘Devil’, but what is it actually? Indulgence is a positive thing for the indulger, but for others, there may be less of the indulged substance left afterwards, which they themselves might have otherwise indulge in. So it now becomes clear that Christianity, Judaism and other modern religions, which use good and evil to their advantage, are simply fooling people into disadvantaging themselves, so that others might benefit from it. Do you really want to live and die as a peon of this counterproductive society?

In conclusion, I will say that I believe good and evil are non-existent, and that in fact, humans created both, in order to gain power, and in order to achieve comfort from false realities. In nature, there is no good and there is no evil. There is no positive, and there is no negative.

There is only chaos.
 
I believe that good and evil are concepts that are pounded into us while we are growing up...by our parents, our environment, our society, etc...

I do not think that these concepts are a steadfast thing, as christians will tell you, but it is something that you have to decide for yourself. It is human nature to be evil, and to do things to both hurt your self and to hurt others so that you can benefit from the situation, and that is why our entire socity is so ass-backwards.

I think that the way that religion pounds good and evil into peoples head is wrong, and I think that these concepts have to be aquired a the person themself, not some bishop imposing his ideas on you.

I dont know if that makes any sense, but in conclusion, I believe that good and evil is something that we need to evolve within ourselvs, and the moral law that is governed by religion is dead. I believe that if we as a society do not back away from the moral law that religion imposes on us, we will never be a beneficial society.
 
Originally posted by jcarl
I think about it like this(and you can take this however you wish): Think of a basketball game. There are certain things you can/can't do--you can't walk with the ball, you can't hack a guy, etc. These are the rules and even if you disagree with them, they still apply to you.
I think you just supported the relative theory. Just because you walk, hack, etc doesn't make that action bad. Maybe it was part of a strategy. Even moreso, what is considered walking/hacking is subjective (as is seen by the need for refs and bad calls).

If it wasn't that way, then here's what would happen: someone has the ball and their team is behind. So the guy pushes over the guy guarding him. That's not the right thing to do, but subjectively the guy thinks it ok b/c he wants to win. Isn't that a foolish way to do things?

Foolish or not, that's how life works. Society sets up the rules. You ALWAYS have the option of not following them. It all depends on if the gain is worth the possible punishment. The only different is that, in life, possible punishments include guilt.

It seems to be fairly obvious (to me atleast) that no concrete right/wrong exists... or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
And2000x,
If that article represents what you believe, then I do believe you could be called an anarchist, and that's some dangerous stuff.

Altec,
I agree; the Inquisitionization of morals isn't the way to do things. However, some of us embrace the things said in things like the Bible, and true Chrisitians accept it for themselves, not because someone told you to.

Persol,
I guess I didn't go far enough with my analogy. Yes, the rules are subjective, but to who are they subjective? In my analogy, God is the ref. He makes the calls. We as humans might disagree with his judgment, but that doesn't mean that God made a bad call.
You have the option of not doing the right thing(even moreso, we can argue what that it's not the right thing)but you must be willing to accept the ramifications of that.
I'm not sure I understand what you're last statement said:
[Q]that no concrete right/wrong exists... or we wouldn't be having this discussion.[/Q]

In my mind, the truth exists as concrete. Some people have different views of what is right and wrong, but that doesn't mean that their different views are right.
 
good and evil are quite simple concepts which i believe to be inherent to a perspective. evil is a bit of a misnomer.. it basically means, really really bad. so basically you're talking about good and bad. good and bad are relative terms regarding what is and is not perceived as beneficial to you or society by you. in that regard good and evil are merely terms describing the "relative benefit" as viewed from the perspective of the individual employing the label.

so they came from the ability/need to communicate our impression of the environment we think we're subject to.
 
Originally posted by jcarl
I guess I didn't go far enough with my analogy. Yes, the rules are subjective, but to who are they subjective? In my analogy, God is the ref. He makes the calls.
Then this discussion is pointless. If you simply call on a God and say that his opinion is always right, then we have no discussion. The simple fact is, if there is a god, we don't know what he thinks or what he will punish. As such, society is our ref.

I'm not sure I understand what you're last statement said:
[Q]that no concrete right/wrong exists... or we wouldn't be having this discussion.[/Q]

If their was a universal truth, we would just have to demonstrate it, not argue about it.

Some people have different views of what is right and wrong, but that doesn't mean that their different views are right.

It doesn't mean that they are wrong either.
 
If that article represents what you believe, then I do believe you could be called an anarchist, and that's some dangerous stuff.

Ha ha. I am no anarchist friend. I am more similair to the third position, or fascist (fascism is the only form of government put into practice under anti-humanist, amoral philosophy). Anarchy is based off of moral assumptions and the protection of the weak, such as the 'good will' of human beings. They assume that without laws people will be happy and volunteer their time, when this is not so. In fact, anarchy is opposed to all things natural. For example, scientists have designed anarchist bee hives, which are bee hives unable to produce a dominant queen. Thus the hive breaks down in a few weeks and all die.
 
It may be true that people who embrace religion are embracing the morals and the ethics of that sect on their own free will, but my question to you is how those values or morals could carry over to a society that is thousands of years from the time that they were written. It seems to me that morals, ethics, and values have to adjust with society, or we will be stuck in the past...and if we are stuck in the past then how can we move forward and better ourselves on a personal level or a larger level like society?
 
interesting question, considering i just started reading paradise lost. in the context of the poem, god comes off as a real asshole, the seat of evil. more like a european despot almighty than a loving father creator. it describe the "hell" satan endures and man, i really feel sorry for him. you feel him as a man who has been driven to thoughts of revenge at the hand of his ruthless captor. how people read this and interpretted the origin of evil as satan's doing is beyond me. i'll tell you, i'd never stand for a ruler like god is in this poem.

"Good and evil are subjective abstract concepts. They didn't "come from" anywhere as it were, not any more than any intangible abstract does, but are merely human creations to try to help us make sense of the world."

maybe i'm just looking at the question through my swedishfish glasses but i thought that was a given. i took it to mean "how did people come up with the concept of good vs evil"?
 
Originally posted by Persol
Then this discussion is pointless. If you simply call on a God and say that his opinion is always right, then we have no discussion. The simple fact is, if there is a god, we don't know what he thinks or what he will punish. As such, society is our ref.[/Q]

But you see I believe that God,through the Bible, tells us what is right and what is wrong.

[Q] we would just have to demonstrate it, not argue about it. [/Q]

Demonstrate it how?

[Q]It doesn't mean that they are wrong either. [/Q]

Look, if good and evil are abstract and not concrete, then does anybody do anything wrong? In Hitler's mind, it was the right thing--even moreso, it was *Beneficial*--to mankind to exterminate the Jews. That was his version of right. Was that right? OF course not, but it was rationalized as right in the mind of the executor.
To take it a step further, if nobody does anything wrong--if it's all relative/subjective--then can anybody be punished for anything.

and2000x,
I figured you would dismiss that, but that article has some very anarchistic thoughts in it.

swedishfish,
Although you did misinterpret my original question, you do bring up another powerful question: "How did people come up with the concepts of good and evil?" I'll take that one step further, and ask this: By whom were we given authority to develop things such as right and wrong? And what would give us a motive to follow them? You see I believe that if it comes from man, then his fellow members of mankind don't really have an incentive to follow. But if it comes from God speaking through men, that would make more sense, at least in my eyes.

Altec,
Why wouldn't morals and ethics carry over over time?
 
Originally posted by jcarl
But you see I believe that God,through the Bible, tells us what is right and what is wrong.

A testament to your powers of discernment.

Look, if good and evil are abstract and not concrete, then does anybody do anything wrong? In Hitler's mind, it was the right thing--even moreso, it was *Beneficial*--to mankind to exterminate the Jews. That was his version of right. Was that right? OF course not, but it was rationalized as right in the mind of the executor.

Now you're getting it. Well except for that last part. You have to concede that he WAS right, to him (since that's basically what you already said). Why was he wrong to you? I agree that he was wrong, but I don't need the bible to figure that one out ya know? Kind of basic to the whole "living in a society" thing.

To take it a step further, if nobody does anything wrong--if it's all relative/subjective--then can anybody be punished for anything.

Wow, you show a glimmer of light. This is rational thinking jcarl! You go! Good questions! Good job!
 
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