Where are all the Christians?
- Thread starter mcflytrap
- Start date
This is intended to be a science site, so you shouldn't expect to see many Christians here.
Christianity and science are opposites.
However, there are some Christians who enjoy science and are able to switch off their scientific interests when they switch into religious mode, and visa versa. Note that it is either one or the other. It is not possible to be in both modes at the same instant.
Of course some Christians switch back and forward so fast that they become very confused. Their arguments are unintelligible.
But you should find someone to support you.
Have fun
Cris
Christianity and science are opposites.
However, there are some Christians who enjoy science and are able to switch off their scientific interests when they switch into religious mode, and visa versa. Note that it is either one or the other. It is not possible to be in both modes at the same instant.
Of course some Christians switch back and forward so fast that they become very confused. Their arguments are unintelligible.
But you should find someone to support you.
Have fun
Cris
How do you reckon that faith is about truth?
Faith is about believing something specifically where there is no evidence or proof.
The only way to establish and know a truth is specifically by finding evidence and proof.
If faith finds a truth, it will be by accident, and it won't know that what it has found is truth.
Faith is essentially quite useless for any practical aspects of life.
Cris
Faith is about believing something specifically where there is no evidence or proof.
The only way to establish and know a truth is specifically by finding evidence and proof.
If faith finds a truth, it will be by accident, and it won't know that what it has found is truth.
Faith is essentially quite useless for any practical aspects of life.
Cris
There is no difference between secular science and christian science. Science is science. Science is attempting to learn about the universe, that's all. Science does not change depending on who is doing it. However, if the people attempting to do it are basically ignoring reality and attaching their own beliefs to things in place of research, that is not science at all, not even christian science. Even atheists do it now and then. But we try to do it all rationally and clearly. As I see it, atheists (at least as I see atheism) have a clear advantage in their clarity of sight simply because they do not accept anything as given or implied and instead try to find the answers through science, through reason and investigation.
There's a difference between solving problems with scientific methods and "solving" problems with faith and rough guesswork. Hence, the difference between the sciences and religion.
They are completely opposite, black and white. One relies on observations, evidence and proofs, the other relies on belief and cryptographic metaphors. As long as these christian scientists are actually trying to figure out who the universe works, how it was created and so forth they are doing legitimate science. However, it's when they say "God made the universe, case closed" that their neat science structure breaks down into religious propeganda.
They are completely opposite, black and white. One relies on observations, evidence and proofs, the other relies on belief and cryptographic metaphors. As long as these christian scientists are actually trying to figure out who the universe works, how it was created and so forth they are doing legitimate science. However, it's when they say "God made the universe, case closed" that their neat science structure breaks down into religious propeganda.
Adam,
Contrast that with religion that bypasses the scientific method completely and assumes its concepts as true based on specific unproven ideas, otherwise known as faith.
Cris
Is not true. The term Christian Science is an oxymoron. Christianity is a religion and hence has its basis in the supernatural, whereas science is concerned only with the natural world. These are opposites. You cannot use as the basis of your research the supernatural and the natural at the same instant.
Well not quite. Try this –
Science is a very specific process and based very strictly on evidence.
Contrast that with religion that bypasses the scientific method completely and assumes its concepts as true based on specific unproven ideas, otherwise known as faith.
This is only true if they follow the scientific method, but if they are using faith as their method then that is not science.
Cris
That's exactly what I said. Read my previous post again. Science is science. It doesn't change. Science is the act of elarning through reason and observation and logic. It is when people attach fairy-tale reasons to it that the problems arise. So christian "science", IF they are actually doing science, is just science. The same for anyone who is doing it. And it is not science if they are attaching fairy-tales to it. Anyone can attach bollocks belief to science, even atheists. "Christian science", if that term is taken as a specific field of endeavour (trying to prove creation theory) is all fairy-tales. But science being done by christians has as much reason to be real science as does science being done by anyone else.
On Christian and Secular Science ...
Are we referring, with Christian science to the Church of Christ Science, or to a scientist who happens to believe in Jesus Christ?
Christian "science" as an oxymoron: To use the words "Christian science" in a certain way does, indeed present an oxymoron, such as we see in creationism.
The only reason I'm sticking my nose in on this one is that I've just witnessed what appears to be a vibejam which, by coincidence, reflects how part of my night has been going. Having seen it third-party, I might now meditate on the idea, or, at least, smoke on it, and figure it out.
It's just that I've seen two definite and possibly three different definitions of "Christian science/Science" ... oh, maybe four. Depends on who thought they disagreed with whom.
Who? Whom? Okay, I'll just go back to red wine now ...
thanx,
Tiassa
Are we referring, with Christian science to the Church of Christ Science, or to a scientist who happens to believe in Jesus Christ?
Christian "science" as an oxymoron: To use the words "Christian science" in a certain way does, indeed present an oxymoron, such as we see in creationism.
The only reason I'm sticking my nose in on this one is that I've just witnessed what appears to be a vibejam which, by coincidence, reflects how part of my night has been going. Having seen it third-party, I might now meditate on the idea, or, at least, smoke on it, and figure it out.
It's just that I've seen two definite and possibly three different definitions of "Christian science/Science" ... oh, maybe four. Depends on who thought they disagreed with whom.
Who? Whom? Okay, I'll just go back to red wine now ...
thanx,
Tiassa
Opposites are they?
The polar opposite to science is not religion. If a polar opposite had to be defined, then it would have to be something that promoted the misunderstanding or noncomprehension, or even destruction of scientific knowledge. Science discovers, records, and predicts things about stuff that is measurable. So you'd have to have something that hid, erased, and confounded about stuff that is measurable in order to have the opposite.
I know there are conspiracy theorists here that believe that all religions (or at least Christianity) is trying to do just that, but the leading nation in scientific progress and achievement (the United States) also has a majority of religious citizenry. While the most atheistic country (France) is more known as the nation most likely to become a museum. The conspiracy that religion is the biggest hamper to science, doesn't pan out.
The idea that scientists who go to church flip flop between religious and scientific thought is a cute one, but scientific thought and religious thought do not necessarily even correspond in any way. Some scientist trying to figure out some chemical makeup, or searching for astronomical phenomena doesn't have scripture telling him what he should find or if he should look. Sometimes when trying to comprehend particle physics, religion is necessary just to keep the scientist sane about the counterintuitive discoveries.
There is one point though, when religion and science can collide. This is when the god or gods become a physical object or in some way affect a physical object. The former is animism, the latter is a "miracle". If, for instance, a miracle happened 50% of the time, no matter what you did, scientific discovery would be pointless because half of everything would be arbitrary to some beings' will or wills. If a religion teaches that such things do happen, it would discourage scientific study and would have reason to be scoffed at by the scientific community. If religion only steps in for rare occurrances, scientific study can go on unhindered.
The point is, that science and religion are not interested in the same thing. Religion is interested in human behavior and morals. Science is interested in discovery and prediction. So being a scientist or interested in science and being religious may or may not correspond without needing to do any mental acrobatics.
The polar opposite to science is not religion. If a polar opposite had to be defined, then it would have to be something that promoted the misunderstanding or noncomprehension, or even destruction of scientific knowledge. Science discovers, records, and predicts things about stuff that is measurable. So you'd have to have something that hid, erased, and confounded about stuff that is measurable in order to have the opposite.
I know there are conspiracy theorists here that believe that all religions (or at least Christianity) is trying to do just that, but the leading nation in scientific progress and achievement (the United States) also has a majority of religious citizenry. While the most atheistic country (France) is more known as the nation most likely to become a museum. The conspiracy that religion is the biggest hamper to science, doesn't pan out.
The idea that scientists who go to church flip flop between religious and scientific thought is a cute one, but scientific thought and religious thought do not necessarily even correspond in any way. Some scientist trying to figure out some chemical makeup, or searching for astronomical phenomena doesn't have scripture telling him what he should find or if he should look. Sometimes when trying to comprehend particle physics, religion is necessary just to keep the scientist sane about the counterintuitive discoveries.
There is one point though, when religion and science can collide. This is when the god or gods become a physical object or in some way affect a physical object. The former is animism, the latter is a "miracle". If, for instance, a miracle happened 50% of the time, no matter what you did, scientific discovery would be pointless because half of everything would be arbitrary to some beings' will or wills. If a religion teaches that such things do happen, it would discourage scientific study and would have reason to be scoffed at by the scientific community. If religion only steps in for rare occurrances, scientific study can go on unhindered.
The point is, that science and religion are not interested in the same thing. Religion is interested in human behavior and morals. Science is interested in discovery and prediction. So being a scientist or interested in science and being religious may or may not correspond without needing to do any mental acrobatics.
quote
The point is, that science and religion are not interested in the same thing. Religion is interested in human behavior and morals. Science is interested in discovery and prediction. So being a scientist or interested in science and being religious may or may not correspond without needing to do any mental acrobatics.
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I agree with that statement but most religions of the world teach God made the entire universe in 7 days...They will fight about it as I watch trees grow so slowly. *shrugs* They "think" the book called the Bible was written by God and it's full of killing, wars, crime, rape, and yet some of it says "hey that's not what God wants." They even like to think God will heal people when they are sick as I watch every religion bury it's members from many different Illnesses. The truth of the matter is the Bible the very book they claim is the word of God is what has caused most wars on this planet. Some like Moses that said "God told me too") and some like the crusades. Some from thinking we are supposed to save the world and you are going to hell anyways so we should have a war with your country.
The point is, that science and religion are not interested in the same thing. Religion is interested in human behavior and morals. Science is interested in discovery and prediction. So being a scientist or interested in science and being religious may or may not correspond without needing to do any mental acrobatics.
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I agree with that statement but most religions of the world teach God made the entire universe in 7 days...They will fight about it as I watch trees grow so slowly. *shrugs* They "think" the book called the Bible was written by God and it's full of killing, wars, crime, rape, and yet some of it says "hey that's not what God wants." They even like to think God will heal people when they are sick as I watch every religion bury it's members from many different Illnesses. The truth of the matter is the Bible the very book they claim is the word of God is what has caused most wars on this planet. Some like Moses that said "God told me too") and some like the crusades. Some from thinking we are supposed to save the world and you are going to hell anyways so we should have a war with your country.
um...
"...most religions of the world teach God made the entire universe in 7 days.."
There's two problems with that statement, the first is the word "most" and the second is "days". First of all, there are thousands of different religions and I think that only 4 to 5 offshoots of Judaism actually hold to the creation story in Genesis. I don't think you'll find a Buddhist or Hindu believing that. I don't think the Native American and African religions hold to that creation story either. Nor did the Ancient Greeks, Norse, Romans, etc.
As for the word "day" in the Genesis account. Even the old pre-Christian Jewish scholars didn't believe that the Hebrew word meant a literal day. In fact, they considered the whole account a mystery for the ages. They likened it more to a riddle than a record of events. This was far before science stepped in saying that the universe is 12 billion years old.
The Bible is full of killing, wars, rape, prostitution, lying, and more--and that's just by the people who are considered among God's faithful. But saying something happened, and saying that it was a good thing or that others should do the same is different. The people who did those ills recorded in the Bible were condemned or punished. The responsibility of people who used the Bible more recently for their atrocities falls on the people themselves. The Bible does not make people do things, people do what they will, and try to justify it by any means they can.
As for people being healed, even when the Bible records Jesus healing all sorts of people who came to him, there were people he chose not to heal. God isn't some mechanical healing or giving machine. Not all bad things are because God chose not to help, and not all good things happen because of God. He does what He wants, which if you think about it is a good thing. If someone could control or manipulate God, then they could start causing harm through that power. Christianity is not something nice to believe in. It's a tough relationship with a lot of rough edges that can leave a person lonely and in pain. If it was any different, it would deny reality.
"...most religions of the world teach God made the entire universe in 7 days.."
There's two problems with that statement, the first is the word "most" and the second is "days". First of all, there are thousands of different religions and I think that only 4 to 5 offshoots of Judaism actually hold to the creation story in Genesis. I don't think you'll find a Buddhist or Hindu believing that. I don't think the Native American and African religions hold to that creation story either. Nor did the Ancient Greeks, Norse, Romans, etc.
As for the word "day" in the Genesis account. Even the old pre-Christian Jewish scholars didn't believe that the Hebrew word meant a literal day. In fact, they considered the whole account a mystery for the ages. They likened it more to a riddle than a record of events. This was far before science stepped in saying that the universe is 12 billion years old.
The Bible is full of killing, wars, rape, prostitution, lying, and more--and that's just by the people who are considered among God's faithful. But saying something happened, and saying that it was a good thing or that others should do the same is different. The people who did those ills recorded in the Bible were condemned or punished. The responsibility of people who used the Bible more recently for their atrocities falls on the people themselves. The Bible does not make people do things, people do what they will, and try to justify it by any means they can.
As for people being healed, even when the Bible records Jesus healing all sorts of people who came to him, there were people he chose not to heal. God isn't some mechanical healing or giving machine. Not all bad things are because God chose not to help, and not all good things happen because of God. He does what He wants, which if you think about it is a good thing. If someone could control or manipulate God, then they could start causing harm through that power. Christianity is not something nice to believe in. It's a tough relationship with a lot of rough edges that can leave a person lonely and in pain. If it was any different, it would deny reality.
*Originally posted by Cris
Christianity and science are opposites.*
Christianity is truth therefore science must be falsehood.
While the data collected by scientists may be of some value, the conclusions they reach fall into the realm of pure speculation aka theory.
*Of course some Christians switch back and forward so fast that they become very confused. Their arguments are unintelligible.*
That is a bad thing.
However, it is amply compensated for by those who remain in scientific mode and thus are confused all the time.
*Faith is about believing something specifically where there is no evidence or proof.*
Faith IS the evidence.
*The only way to establish and know a truth is specifically by finding evidence and proof.*
Doing it that way merely convinces you that you have found a truth.
In actual fact, you have no way of knowing whether your discovered 'truth" is true or not, and it is very difficult for you to change your mind since you have just thoroughly convinced yourself.
*If faith finds a truth, it will be by accident, and it won't know that what it has found is truth.*
Completely backwards.
First you find the truth, then you believe it.
If you believe something that isn't true, you are operating in delusion, not faith.
Your statement is correct if you replace "faith" by "science," though, since science never knows anything, as you and others have repeatedly stated.
*Originally posted by Adam
As I see it, atheists (at least as I see atheism) have a clear advantage in their clarity of sight simply because they do not accept anything as given or implied and instead try to find the answers through science, through reason and investigation.*
Sounds like a brilliant plan until one questions your reason.
At what point have you established whether your reason is valid or completely delusional?
Saying that you have found others who think the same way you do does not establish that you are correct; it merely establishes that you may have found others who are equally delusional.
*Originally posted by Xelios
However, it's when they say "God made the universe, case closed" that their neat science structure breaks down into religious propeganda.*
Propaganda is only propaganda if it is false.
*Originally posted by dan1123
So you'd have to have something that hid, erased, and confounded about stuff that is measurable in order to have the opposite.*
That is science.
Just see what scientists do when the data directly contradicts their pet theories.
*Originally posted by justagirl
They even like to think God will heal people when they are sick as I watch every religion bury it's members from many different Illnesses.*
You're watching ALL religions, so it's hard to pick out the believers from non-believers.
The believers don't get sick.
*The truth of the matter is the Bible the very book they claim is the word of God is what has caused most wars on this planet.*
???
I had no idea that Genghis Khan had a Bible.
I had no idea that the various African tribes thousands of years ago had a Bible.
Which side in the Punic Wars had a Bible?
etc.
*Originally posted by dan1123
As for the word "day" in the Genesis account. Even the old pre-Christian Jewish scholars didn't believe that the Hebrew word meant a literal day.*
Some people see the "evening" and "morning" thing.
*As for people being healed, even when the Bible records Jesus healing all sorts of people who came to him, there were people he chose not to heal.*
Here's how he chooses...
... According to your faith be it unto you.
(Matthew 9:29, KJV).
Christianity and science are opposites.*
Christianity is truth therefore science must be falsehood.
While the data collected by scientists may be of some value, the conclusions they reach fall into the realm of pure speculation aka theory.
*Of course some Christians switch back and forward so fast that they become very confused. Their arguments are unintelligible.*
That is a bad thing.
However, it is amply compensated for by those who remain in scientific mode and thus are confused all the time.
*Faith is about believing something specifically where there is no evidence or proof.*
Faith IS the evidence.
*The only way to establish and know a truth is specifically by finding evidence and proof.*
Doing it that way merely convinces you that you have found a truth.
In actual fact, you have no way of knowing whether your discovered 'truth" is true or not, and it is very difficult for you to change your mind since you have just thoroughly convinced yourself.
*If faith finds a truth, it will be by accident, and it won't know that what it has found is truth.*
Completely backwards.
First you find the truth, then you believe it.
If you believe something that isn't true, you are operating in delusion, not faith.
Your statement is correct if you replace "faith" by "science," though, since science never knows anything, as you and others have repeatedly stated.
*Originally posted by Adam
As I see it, atheists (at least as I see atheism) have a clear advantage in their clarity of sight simply because they do not accept anything as given or implied and instead try to find the answers through science, through reason and investigation.*
Sounds like a brilliant plan until one questions your reason.
At what point have you established whether your reason is valid or completely delusional?
Saying that you have found others who think the same way you do does not establish that you are correct; it merely establishes that you may have found others who are equally delusional.
*Originally posted by Xelios
However, it's when they say "God made the universe, case closed" that their neat science structure breaks down into religious propeganda.*
Propaganda is only propaganda if it is false.
*Originally posted by dan1123
So you'd have to have something that hid, erased, and confounded about stuff that is measurable in order to have the opposite.*
That is science.
Just see what scientists do when the data directly contradicts their pet theories.
*Originally posted by justagirl
They even like to think God will heal people when they are sick as I watch every religion bury it's members from many different Illnesses.*
You're watching ALL religions, so it's hard to pick out the believers from non-believers.
The believers don't get sick.
*The truth of the matter is the Bible the very book they claim is the word of God is what has caused most wars on this planet.*
???
I had no idea that Genghis Khan had a Bible.
I had no idea that the various African tribes thousands of years ago had a Bible.
Which side in the Punic Wars had a Bible?
etc.
*Originally posted by dan1123
As for the word "day" in the Genesis account. Even the old pre-Christian Jewish scholars didn't believe that the Hebrew word meant a literal day.*
Some people see the "evening" and "morning" thing.
*As for people being healed, even when the Bible records Jesus healing all sorts of people who came to him, there were people he chose not to heal.*
Here's how he chooses...
... According to your faith be it unto you.
(Matthew 9:29, KJV).
quote
The believers don't get sick. ---
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Like I said we all die and I haven't found a religion immune to getting sick yet.
quote
*The truth of the matter is the Bible the very book they claim is the word of God is what has caused most wars on this planet.*
???
I had no idea that Genghis Khan had a Bible.
I had no idea that the various African tribes thousands of years ago had a Bible.
Which side in the Punic Wars had a Bible?
etc.
-----like I said most as I never said "all"
The believers don't get sick. ---
------------
Like I said we all die and I haven't found a religion immune to getting sick yet.
quote
*The truth of the matter is the Bible the very book they claim is the word of God is what has caused most wars on this planet.*
???
I had no idea that Genghis Khan had a Bible.
I had no idea that the various African tribes thousands of years ago had a Bible.
Which side in the Punic Wars had a Bible?
etc.
-----like I said most as I never said "all"
Well, as many people have explained in many threads, we have this thing some people call the scientific method. We research, investigate, learn, practice, and do many many experiments to find out what and why.
No, faith is belief without reason.
Got any examples? Anything at all to back that up?
That's friggin priceless.
quote
*As for people being healed, even when the Bible records Jesus healing all sorts of people who came to him, there were people he chose not to heal.* The believers don't get sick
Here's how he chooses...
... According to your faith be it unto you.
(Matthew 9:29, KJV).
-------
Matthew 9 35
Jesus went through all of the towns and villages, teaching in their sinagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and "healing every disease and sickness.
WEll that verse disputes what you say and it is in the Bible. Now we all know he didn't heal EVERY disease and sickness as if he had of, there would be no more illness and I know you claim your faith is immune but *shrugs* perhaps you should see a shrink??
*As for people being healed, even when the Bible records Jesus healing all sorts of people who came to him, there were people he chose not to heal.* The believers don't get sick
Here's how he chooses...
... According to your faith be it unto you.
(Matthew 9:29, KJV).
-------
Matthew 9 35
Jesus went through all of the towns and villages, teaching in their sinagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and "healing every disease and sickness.
WEll that verse disputes what you say and it is in the Bible. Now we all know he didn't heal EVERY disease and sickness as if he had of, there would be no more illness and I know you claim your faith is immune but *shrugs* perhaps you should see a shrink??
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Are these people for real???!
Tony:
Theory is not pure speculation.
Nor is Christianity truth, and even if it was, this would not make science false.
False dilemna.
Of what? Of mental illness? Perhaps.
Tony, sleep off the remains of friday night before posting here.
We know 'our' truth is true because, gee whillikers! It agrees with experiment.
Reason has validity independant of what fundie nutters claim.
Nutter Alert! Nutter Alert!
Good scientists get rid of said theories. That is how science works.
Don't they teach these things in high school?
No, but both sides in the Thirty Years War had them, the Inquisition used it, Kramer and Sprenger used it extensivly, as did all the witch hunters, the Boers used it to justify slavery, as did slavers in the American Soulth, the Catholic French used it to persecute the Hugenauts....shall I go on? This is just from memory, I am sure that a few minutes at Google will turn up more.....
Tony:
Theory is not pure speculation.
Nor is Christianity truth, and even if it was, this would not make science false.
False dilemna.
Of what? Of mental illness? Perhaps.
Tony, sleep off the remains of friday night before posting here.
We know 'our' truth is true because, gee whillikers! It agrees with experiment.
Reason has validity independant of what fundie nutters claim.
Nutter Alert! Nutter Alert!
Good scientists get rid of said theories. That is how science works.
Don't they teach these things in high school?
No, but both sides in the Thirty Years War had them, the Inquisition used it, Kramer and Sprenger used it extensivly, as did all the witch hunters, the Boers used it to justify slavery, as did slavers in the American Soulth, the Catholic French used it to persecute the Hugenauts....shall I go on? This is just from memory, I am sure that a few minutes at Google will turn up more.....
blonde_cupid
Registered Senior Member
hi mc,
I believe in salvation through Jesus Christ.
I believe in salvation through Jesus Christ.