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what768
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The ark and exodus happened, but many of the things in the Bible are symbolic. I know Jesus was man, (what is man?) 'cos of the flesh, but he was god 'cos he knew his spirit. God is trapped in our bodies.............
When Jesus was missing, where did he go?
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
what768 said:
768..u mean that really big boat? Where did it go? It has never been found. I don't know enough about the Exodus to say it did or didn't happen. It is more probable than a lot of Biblical stuff though. When you say man is God 'cos he knew the spirt...than are you saying all Christians are god cause they know the spirt or perhaps all gnositics are God cause they know the spirt?
You really, really sound sorta like a pantheist.....please read these two links about it
http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/faqs.htm
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pantheism/
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what768
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the boat dissapeared cos it happened so long ago. and it wasn't that big. most of those you call christians know nothing about the god, and neither do those who call themselves gnostics. i dunno yet what a pantheist is but i've heard about it.
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M*W: I had always believed that Noah's Ark and the Exodus did happen, but there have been some recent biblical archeologists who deny their existence. However, the Sumerians had the story of Gilgamesh which was about a flood. The story of Noah's Ark was just a copycat of the Gilgamesh flood.
Also, archeologists are now saying that the Exodus could have never happened due to the lack of any kind of evidence. In the greater scheme of things, do ancient myths really have any influence on religionists today? I think not.
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what768
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M*W
Hm.. who says that Noah's Ark is a copy of Gilgamesh flood? Couldn't it be that these two are the same thing? For example, all religions are talking about similar things (like God), so it might be that they're actually talking about the Same "God".
What is this exodus? When adam and eve ate the fruit? I believe in that at least... but i don't take it so literally. It's more like those stories that Jesus told which were meant to explain the "kingdom of god".
God has no religion.
Hm.. who says that Noah's Ark is a copy of Gilgamesh flood? Couldn't it be that these two are the same thing? For example, all religions are talking about similar things (like God), so it might be that they're actually talking about the Same "God".
What is this exodus? When adam and eve ate the fruit? I believe in that at least... but i don't take it so literally. It's more like those stories that Jesus told which were meant to explain the "kingdom of god".
God has no religion.
*************what768 said:
M*W: The Exodus was when Moses (aka Aminadab, Amenhotep IV, Tuthmosis IV, Akhenaten had the nickname of "Moses." Moses left his pharaohic throne in Egypt and fled to the desert with some other Egyptian-Habiru nomadic tribes. The Exodus was apparently a myth by modern standards. Moses fled Egypt but left his son, King Tut, after he died. After his best wife Nefertiti died, Moses fled but never made it to the Promised Land. Moses was born an Egyptian and he died an Egyptian. After Nefertiti, who bore Moses some seven children, died, Moses took his eldest daughter, Merytaten, for a wife and had a child with her. Those were the customs of the day. It's possible that Moses was just another myth.
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what768
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Whatever you say M*W. We all have our own truth.
what768 said:
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what768
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M*W
I don't "believe" in Christianity alone, but I believe in all religions. Parts of them... those which I think sound true and nice. I really don't think christianity should be "destroyed" (as you think?) because it still gives love and hope for many people and they become better people, even if it would be a "lie", historically or something. Ye3... i believe "kingdom of god" is within. You could say so, or you could say it's not... everything is clear to me. I know my truth. I put my thoughts in words but people seldom truly grasp what i think. 'Cos it's hard to put oneself to another person's mind. If you want truth, never be for or against.
I don't "believe" in Christianity alone, but I believe in all religions. Parts of them... those which I think sound true and nice. I really don't think christianity should be "destroyed" (as you think?) because it still gives love and hope for many people and they become better people, even if it would be a "lie", historically or something. Ye3... i believe "kingdom of god" is within. You could say so, or you could say it's not... everything is clear to me. I know my truth. I put my thoughts in words but people seldom truly grasp what i think. 'Cos it's hard to put oneself to another person's mind. If you want truth, never be for or against.
what768 said:
What a beautiful thing to say. That was heart warming..and I hope it is not irking that I suggest other religions but very Unitarian thing to say. I hope you stick to your guns about believing in all relgions and a year from now have educated yourself in some degree to other beliefs such as buddism, hinduism, Islamic relgion, secular humanism and the like......
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what768
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robtex
m... but i don't believe just in religions, but in science too and lots of other things... that's what we all do, don't we? But i don't like education, because you have to read so much, and i think i know enough to Live...
m... but i don't believe just in religions, but in science too and lots of other things... that's what we all do, don't we? But i don't like education, because you have to read so much, and i think i know enough to Live...
Well, Luke, which contains the story of young Jesus, was written last among the Gospels. Maybe the early Christains were all asking your questions so Luke went and found a fun story of Jesus' youth to include in his telling? I suppose one story is just never enough!Medicine Woman said:
M.W. You seem to like to get Mary Magdalene into all your posts? Jesus did seem to love her - in a God Love sort of way - and he did raise her up when she was down. Mary was probably passionately in love with him (I'm reading between the lines a bit). Jesus was so kind to Mary, yet you still don't seem to like Jesus?
Yes, all this is true (at least as true as anything can be established that far back), but the Moses you are talking about is not the same as the Moses of the biblical Exodus. As you correctly say, Moses was a common name/nickname of the Pharoahs of Egypt. The Moses you describe was born around 1375BC while the Moses from the Biblical Exodus was born around 1630BC. There is some commonality in their stories - they each were high up in the Eyptian royalty, each had two wives, each ran to the desert.Medicine Woman said:
A lot of Biblical stories are very very simular to other stories as well. This can happen for a number of reasons...I noticed two particular ones in this thread
Moses - Im not familure with this story other than the bible, so I do not have an idea of why or how these's stories are simular
Noah and Gilgamesh - My "theory" is that they are the same person. EXACTLY. It is a fact that the city of Ur was built twice. There is a 40 year where Ur was not inhabited and later was again. This brings my theory to believe that Noah had his arc, because he may have been from Suran (where Ur was origanly a part of), or was it Sumir, dont remember exact name off head. But Noah built the arc for what was said a good portion of his life, 100 years i think. He could have been in it for 40 days and nights and over a period of 40 years return to Ur. This could be a name problem. See that these stories were not written down till sometime during or after the Exodus from Egypt. This is all in people's heads. I assume that they may have changed or forgotten Noah's name and put someone native in it.
Ever played that telephone game when your a kid. Kinda my theory on Noah and Gilgamesh.
Moses - Im not familure with this story other than the bible, so I do not have an idea of why or how these's stories are simular
Noah and Gilgamesh - My "theory" is that they are the same person. EXACTLY. It is a fact that the city of Ur was built twice. There is a 40 year where Ur was not inhabited and later was again. This brings my theory to believe that Noah had his arc, because he may have been from Suran (where Ur was origanly a part of), or was it Sumir, dont remember exact name off head. But Noah built the arc for what was said a good portion of his life, 100 years i think. He could have been in it for 40 days and nights and over a period of 40 years return to Ur. This could be a name problem. See that these stories were not written down till sometime during or after the Exodus from Egypt. This is all in people's heads. I assume that they may have changed or forgotten Noah's name and put someone native in it.
Ever played that telephone game when your a kid. Kinda my theory on Noah and Gilgamesh.
David F.: Well, Luke, which contains the story of young Jesus, was written last among the Gospels. Maybe the early Christains were all asking your questions so Luke went and found a fun story of Jesus' youth to include in his telling? I suppose one story is just never enough!
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M*W: Mark was written around 70 AD, Matthew and Luke were written in the 80s AD, and John was written in the 90s. Interestingly, Paul's letters were written first during the 50s AD, and his letters influenced the writings of the gospels. The gospel writing in John, the beloved disciple, is neither like form or style of the other three gospel writers. Recent biblical researchers believe that the gospel of John may have been written by Mary Magdalene who may have been called the code name of "John." They also believe that MM wrote Revelations, too.
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David F.: M.W. You seem to like to get Mary Magdalene into all your posts? Jesus did seem to love her - in a God Love sort of way - and he did raise her up when she was down. Mary was probably passionately in love with him (I'm reading between the lines a bit). Jesus was so kind to Mary, yet you still don't seem to like Jesus?
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M*W: I do refer to MM frequently because I have been researching her for many years. The early church fathers suppressed much of the information available on MM. She may have been a real person, or she may have been a symbol of something else. If she were a real woman, I believe she and Jesus were married and had children. I also believe she was the true vine of Christ. The dynasty she founded, the Mer-o-vin-gians (the vine of Mary) was a priest-king group of magi-type warriors. Jesus did love her, passionately. The gospel of either Philip or Thomas states that Jesus "kissed her often on the mouth." This angered Peter, and MM was afraid of Peter. It is MM who is called "the beloved disciple." I have never stated that I don't like Jesus. You have misread my posts. IF Jesus lived, I believe he was a rabbi but not one of several dying demigod saviors of myth. On the other hand, if Jesus was just a myth as some believe, then MM was a myth, too. If you notice in the NT, everywhere MM is, John is there also. Whether or not Jesus ever existed (he wrote nothing, and those who wrote about him never knew him) that remaines to be proven. The letters of Paul and the gospels were written some 40 years after Jesus -- much too long of a time period to be accurate.
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M*W: Mark was written around 70 AD, Matthew and Luke were written in the 80s AD, and John was written in the 90s. Interestingly, Paul's letters were written first during the 50s AD, and his letters influenced the writings of the gospels. The gospel writing in John, the beloved disciple, is neither like form or style of the other three gospel writers. Recent biblical researchers believe that the gospel of John may have been written by Mary Magdalene who may have been called the code name of "John." They also believe that MM wrote Revelations, too.
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David F.: M.W. You seem to like to get Mary Magdalene into all your posts? Jesus did seem to love her - in a God Love sort of way - and he did raise her up when she was down. Mary was probably passionately in love with him (I'm reading between the lines a bit). Jesus was so kind to Mary, yet you still don't seem to like Jesus?
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M*W: I do refer to MM frequently because I have been researching her for many years. The early church fathers suppressed much of the information available on MM. She may have been a real person, or she may have been a symbol of something else. If she were a real woman, I believe she and Jesus were married and had children. I also believe she was the true vine of Christ. The dynasty she founded, the Mer-o-vin-gians (the vine of Mary) was a priest-king group of magi-type warriors. Jesus did love her, passionately. The gospel of either Philip or Thomas states that Jesus "kissed her often on the mouth." This angered Peter, and MM was afraid of Peter. It is MM who is called "the beloved disciple." I have never stated that I don't like Jesus. You have misread my posts. IF Jesus lived, I believe he was a rabbi but not one of several dying demigod saviors of myth. On the other hand, if Jesus was just a myth as some believe, then MM was a myth, too. If you notice in the NT, everywhere MM is, John is there also. Whether or not Jesus ever existed (he wrote nothing, and those who wrote about him never knew him) that remaines to be proven. The letters of Paul and the gospels were written some 40 years after Jesus -- much too long of a time period to be accurate.
Sorry, this is old data. Back in the 1980-90s this was a common theory but it has been proven wrong. As I understand it, there are around 10,000 letters - personal correspondance - between people known to have lived in the first century prior to the 70AD catastrophe in Jerusalem. These 10,000 or so contain quotes from the NT gospels and epistles which cumulatively make up (quote) approximately 98% of the NT. Since you can't quote something which has not yet been written, the NT books must have been written earlier (I won't argue with your order though - it may be that John was written after Luke). The other key, of course, is that there is no mention of the worst catastrophe ever to occur to the Jewish people in any NT writing - which by itself dates all prior to 70AD. That theory was specifically put forward to discredit the NT books since the dates you quote would necessitate ghost writers rather than the actual Apostles. Sorry - old discredited data.Medicine Woman said:
It's been a long time since I read Gilgamesh, but I didn't think that Gilgamesh had an ark or went through a flood. Gilgamesh lost his best friend and went to see a great wise man, King Ziusudra (aka Noah) and it is King Ziusudra who it was said to have survived a great flood. Isn't this how the story goes?camphlps said:
Noah is said to have been in the ark for almost a year (360 days?) from the age of 600 to the age of 601 (he lived to be over 900 and yes, it took 100 years to build the ark even with the help of three of his sons). The rain lasted 40 days and 40 nights.
I'm not sure. There is actually no reason for it still to exist (I assume you mean Noah's ark - or are you referring to the ark of the covenant?) Noah's ark was made of wood and the Bible puts the date around 4400 years ago. Normally anything made of wood would not last that long.robtex said:
We do know the location of Mt. Ararat and there have been some sightings, but I haven't yet seen or heard anything credible.
I guess I just don't know and I don't think it really matters if it is never found. If it is found - will people believe or will they just think it is another hoax.
What really peaks my interest is the Shroud of Turin! I don't know if it is real and I am normally highly sceptical and downright hostile toward relics - but this looks like it might be authentic. Even if it turns out to be real, it still doesn't make any religeous difference or change my faith.
