When Does it Become Okay to Kill, to Satisfy Your Religious or Cultural Needs?

WillNever

WillNever

Valued Senior Member
IMPORTANT: All must watch at least the first five minutes of this video to understand the subject matter. However, I strongly recommend watching ALL of it. I warn you, the video contains images and videos of muslim men whipping the backs of crying, screaming women and stoning them to death.

The Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg6b5oS-TvQ


This video focuses on Indonesia, a predominantly muslim country that is forcefully imposing its majority religion onto christians throughout its providences. Many muslims in the USA claim that christians and jews are doing the very same thing to muslim-americans. However, as far as violence and cruelty are concerned, what similarities do the two paralleling phenomena actually share?

The topic of this thread is, does religion or culture make for an acceptable excuse for condoning violence and brutality to somebody on the basis of their sex or creed..? Is it a discredit to their religion when muslims attempt to impose sharia law on people who are adverse to changing..? Why do some muslims they insist on being treated under the standards of sharia law even when they are in a non-muslim country..?

Use this thread to comment, question, and discuss your ideas on the matter. Please only do so after having observed a portion of the video.
 
Killing and cruelty are justified in a variety of ways by different cultures. In the West we do most things by proxy and at a distance - cluster bombs lead to maimed children and dead children, long after whatever conflict they are used in. This is well known. But it is hard to find a you tube video where the cruelty is clear in someone's face. They are not there when their cruelty happens.
 
WillNever said:
IMPORTANT: All must watch at least the first five minutes of this video to understand the subject matter. However, I strongly recommend watching ALL of it. I warn you, the video contains images and videos of muslim men whipping the backs of crying, screaming women and stoning them to death.

The Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg6b5oS-TvQ


This video focuses on Indonesia, a predominantly muslim country that is forcefully imposing its majority religion onto christians throughout its providences. Many muslims in the USA claim that christians and jews are doing the very same thing to muslim-americans. However, as far as violence and cruelty are concerned, what similarities do the two paralleling phenomena actually share?

The topic of this thread is, does religion or culture make for an acceptable excuse for condoning violence and brutality to somebody on the basis of their sex or creed..? Is it a discredit to their religion when muslims attempt to impose sharia law on people who are adverse to changing..? Why do some muslims they insist on being treated under the standards of sharia law even when they are in a non-muslim country..?

Use this thread to comment, question, and discuss your ideas on the matter. Please only do so after having observed a portion of the video.
Click to expand...

:jawdrop: There's so many lies in that video... I don't even know where to start... :runaway:

Ok, I'll go defending my country (Indonesia), which according to you is a predominantly muslim country that is forcefully imposing its majority religion onto christians, and according to the video is imposing sharia law and oppresing its women.

Gimme 5 minutes or so..
 
Are the women in Indonesia opressed by sharia law?

Ladies and gentlemen:


Interview with the 7th President of Republic of Indonesia (a lady!):



Indonesia - Miss Universe 2009 candidate presentation



Miss Indonesia 2009:



Indonesia's L'oreal Women in Science Awards winners



Life in the capital, Jakarta: shopping and skating!



Travel Tips: Bali, Indonesia


Indonesia - the world of its own



Visit Indonesia 2009



Come and visit us yourself! :)
 
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Kira, this thread is not designed for you to try and improve your country's image abroad by spamming a long list of shitty commercial advertisements. It's here for you to put forth a cogent argument of some kind. If you believe that woman's statements to be false, then I'm prepared to hear you address them point for point. If you will not or cannot do that, then that is where you are at an impasse and our conversation ends here.

In the meantime, you might want to do something about the human trafficking problem your country has.
 
WillNever said:
Kira, this thread is not designed for you to try and improve your country's image abroad by spamming a long list of shitty commercial advertisements. It's here for you to put forth a cogent argument of some kind. If you believe that woman's statements to be false, then I'm prepared to hear you address them point for point. If you will not or cannot do that, then that is where you are at an impasse and our conversation ends here.

In the meantime, you might want to do something about the human trafficking problem your country has.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by shitty commercial advertisement? :confused: I didn't find it fair that the image of my country is portrayed by a one-sided interview made by some Islamic hater as you provide in the link. That's why I showed you some facts how the life of women and the people in general in Indonesia. We have had woman as the president of the republic (2001-2004), we still have women as ministers, CEOs, we have representatives in national and international beauty pageant contests, we have women with outstanding achievement in international science competitions, etc.

The majority of the population is muslim, but it isn't ruled by Islamic law. In our constitutions, the rights to have ANY belief system is protected by law. We have too many diverse culture to mention, with over 250 different local languages. There are of course groups of people that are very religious, be it muslims, christians, hindus, budhas, kong fu cu, etc. There are also groups of people which are untouched by religion or even modern life, some of this people still lives on trees.

To address the woman's statement in the video point by point I'll have to play the video again and replying here. Here is few things:
- discussion about religion isn't my favorite subject :p
- at this moment (1 AM) I am kind of exhausted (fortunately from tomorrow I'll have long vacation), BUT if you'll write which points here that you want me to discuss specifically, I'll take time to reply. That video is way too looong....!
 
WillNever said:
IMPORTANT: All must watch at least the first five minutes of this video to understand the subject matter. However, I strongly recommend watching ALL of it. I warn you, the video contains images and videos of muslim men whipping the backs of crying, screaming women and stoning them to death. ....
Click to expand...

America kills people for breaking laws. Many countries consider capital punishment to be barbaric. Some countries use rocks, we use needles and electricity.
 
kira said:
What do you mean by shitty commercial advertisement? :confused: I didn't find it fair that the image of my country is portrayed by a one-sided interview made by some Islamic hater as you provide in the link.
Click to expand...

The video isn't purely about Indonensia, Kira. Many if not most of the things she said applied to versions of Sharia law that exist in countries besides Indonesia. However, the topic of this thread is about whether religion is an excuse to kill.
 
WillNever said:
In the meantime, you might want to do something about the human trafficking problem your country has.
Click to expand...

I am aware of the human trafficking problem in my country, in fact it is universal problem. I'll discuss that link if you firstly discuss this from the same link:

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/united_states_of_america

p.s.: of course your country have more advance way in combatting human trafficking, after all mine is still in developing status. The country have other equally urgent and important priorities.
 
Orleander said:
America kills people for breaking laws. Many countries consider capital punishment to be barbaric. Some countries use rocks, we use needles and electricity.
Click to expand...

There is a difference orleander. We don't kill them because their acts violate our religious beliefs, as they are surely doing in many horrid countries. We do so because they caused harm to another individual or to society, not because what they did violates a religious precept. In my case, I don't agree with capital punishment in ANY situation, regardless of the country.

We also don't kill people based on their sex. The people we are talking about *DO* kill people on that basis. Again, big difference.
 
Doreen said:
Killing and cruelty are justified in a variety of ways by different cultures. In the West we do most things by proxy and at a distance - cluster bombs lead to maimed children and dead children, long after whatever conflict they are used in. ....
Click to expand...

really? Only the West uses bombs? All those bombings in marketplaces....damn the West for doing that! :rolleyes:
 
WillNever said:
There is a difference orleander. We don't kill them because their acts violate our religious beliefs, as they are surely doing in many horrid countries. We do so because they caused harm to another individual or to society, not because what they did violates a religious precept. In my case, I don't agree with capital punishment in ANY situation, regardless of the country.

We also don't kill people based on their sex. The people we are talking about *DO* kill people on that basis. Again, big difference.
Click to expand...

I feel somewhat suckered in by the thread title and OP. The topic is really, Islam is bad because........

OK, fair enough topic, but a more general issue, and aim, is implied, hell, stated, in the title/OP.
 
WillNever said:
There is a difference orleander. We don't kill them because their acts violate our religious beliefs, as they are surely doing in many horrid countries. We do so because they caused harm to another individual or to society, not because what they did violates a religious precept. In my case, I don't agree with capital punishment in ANY situation, regardless of the country.

We also don't kill people based on their sex. The people we are talking about *DO* kill people on that basis. Again, big difference.
Click to expand...

They aren't being killed because they are female. They are being killed because they broke a law.

Americans have legally killed people for being witches, being black, being gay, etc. Wives were once considered property. So don't get on your high horse because it's illegal now.

And in the US you can still take someone to court for adultery. Its called 'alienation of affection'. I may not be able to kill them, but I can take all their money.
 
WillNever said:
The video isn't purely about Indonensia, Kira. Many if not most of the things she said applied to versions of Sharia law that exist in countries besides Indonesia.
Click to expand...

You said in the OP "This video focuses on Indonesia, ...." (paragraph 3) :poke:


However, the topic of this thread is about whether religion is an excuse to kill.
Click to expand...

I am not fond to discuss about religion, it's going to end up sounds like preaching. It is suffice to say that I support justice and I am abide by law where I live (good citizen), just like most people. People kill in the name of defense (national, family, individual), hunger, ethnic, race, land ownership, jealousy, revenge, etc. Why nitpicking on religion?

I'm not so sure, but is it right that the English word for it is "nitpicking"? :confused:
 
Orleander said:
They aren't being killed because they are female. They are being killed because they broke a law.
Click to expand...

You need to observe the video in the first post of this thread. Women are not always breaking the law when they are killed. Instead, it is because MEN are within the law to actually kill women who are not guilty of any crime. Example: in some countries, a woman who is raped is considered to no longer be a virgin. However, to prove she was raped in a court of law, she must present four male witnesses. If she fails to do this, then her case is thrown out and she can be killed by her family in an "honor killing" for no longer being marriageable.

No more word games.

Americans have legally killed people for being witches, being black, being gay, etc. Wives were once considered property. So don't get on your high horse because it's illegal now.
Click to expand...

Yes, we're still waiting for the rest of the world to join us here in the 21st century.
 
kira said:
You said in the OP "This video focuses on Indonesia, ...." (paragraph 3) :poke:

I am not fond to discuss about religion, it's going to end up sounds like preaching. It is suffice to say that I support justice and I am abide by law where I live (good citizen), just like most people. :confused:
Click to expand...


Okay... and do you believe that religious beliefs (more specifically systems like sharia law) make for equitiable and fair systems of justice..?
 
WillNever said:
You need to observe the video in the first post of this thread. Women are not always breaking the law when they are killed. Instead, it is because MEN are within the law to actually kill women who are not guilty of any crime. Example: in some countries, a woman who is raped is considered to no longer be a virgin. However, to prove she was raped in a court of law, she must present four male witnesses. If she fails to do this, then her case is thrown out and she can be killed by her family in an "honor killing" for no longer being marriageable. No more word games.
Click to expand...

That is surely not in my country, although I wouldn't criticize other culture without knowing the first hand information. In my country, marriage is still viewed as sacred, most people would stay virgin until their marriage. Some are not, but these are celebrities. They live in big cities, zusammenleben (living together without marriage bond), have children without marriage, etc. But I guess this is normal, big cities are influenced a lot by foreign cultures. People like where I come from (small cities) are still pretty traditional. We still respect some values which is considered outdated by today's standard. I don't feel shame with this.
 
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