Whatever happened to honesty?

S.A.M.

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
I remember a time when you could shake hands over a deal and your word was considered good enough collateral.

Now we need lawyers and "terms and conditions" in fine print to cover your ass.

There was a time when vows meant you could trust the other person. Now we need to decide on prenuptial agreements and consider separate bank accounts before we agree to love and cherish "forever".

So what happened to honesty? Why is it so difficult not only to trust people but also to uphold the trust that people have in you?
 
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The problem is that we're living in larger and more anonymous communities these days.

When everybody lived in small villages or tribal groups, everybody knew everybody. People would know everybody's reputation. Each person would have multiple interactions and transactions with every other person. Lying or cheating in your dealings with another person would come back to bite you, because your victim would spread the news to the other people you would be interacting with in the future, and your victim may refuse to interact with you again, to your cost.

In today's world, you might interact with a particular other person only once. If you cheat or lie to them, it doesn't matter so much. They won't necessarily even know who you are. If they tell their friends and family about your deception, what do you care? You probably don't even know those people and will never have to transact business with them. You can move on to cheat and lie to new people. You'll probably never run out of new people to cheat and lie to. Up to a point, you can get away with it without too many problems for you.

How do people in business overcome the modern lack of knowledge of the personal characteristics of the people they are dealing with? Answer: those "terms and conditions" and fine legal print. They rely on the law to hold potentially untrustworthy people to their word.

As for pre-nups, I'd suggest that people who need a pre-nup are probably rushing into marriage. They obviously aren't confident that they know their future wife or husband well enough. Or, they are worried that their betrothed may have ulterior motives for marrying them. If I was a billionaire 70 year old man, I'd be just a little suspicious of the 25 year old beautiful woman who wanted to marry me, and I might want a pre-nup just to insure myself in case her motives turn out to be not quite as honourable as I imagine they are.
 
S.A.M. said:
So what happened to honesty? Why is it so difficult not only to trust people but also to uphold the trust that people have in you?
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James is right, SAM, ....too many people!

S.A.M. said:
I remember a time when you could shake hands over a deal and your word was considered good enough collateral.
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I'm betting that that's still true of people you know well and who know you well. The problems arise when the two people don't actually "know" each other ...thus don't know if they can trust them or not.

Baron Max
 
Enmos said:
No, just too many people.
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I know some very responsible, trustworthy people as well as others who are not. You can't get rid of everyone and think that will do away with the problems that the devious are doing.
 
S.A.M. said:
I remember a time when you could shake hands over a deal and your word was considered good enough collateral.

Now we need lawyers and "terms and conditions" in fine print to cover your ass.

There was a time when vows meant you could trust the other person. Now we need to decide on prenuptial agreements and consider separate bank accounts before we agree to love and cherish "forever".

So what happened to honesty? Why is it so difficult not only to trust people but also to uphold the trust that people have in you?
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I think that everyone is more competitive these days, and it is more difficult to get ahead. Therefore, people are willing to do more. Individualistic behavior is encouraged, especially in the West. Being results-oriented is considered a virtue. Also, the fact that we live in a larger community is also a big factor--reputation does not matter much anymore.

By the way, I think that as online business networks and merchant feedback sites gain popularity, we'll see that people will become more responsible in their dealings with others.
 
Thinka said:
By the way, I think that as online business networks and merchant feedback sites gain popularity, we'll see that people will become more responsible in their dealings with others.
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Why on Earth would you say that? With the anonymity involved, it seems that it's allowing for more and more shady dealings. And if the news is any indication, that's becoming more true every day.

If someone screws you through an Internet site, what recourse do you have to get any restitution?

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
Why on Earth would you say that? With the anonymity involved, it seems that it's allowing for more and more shady dealings. And if the news is any indication, that's becoming more true every day.

If someone screws you through an Internet site, what recourse do you have to get any restitution?

Baron Max
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I'm talking about social networks for professionals, like LinkedIn. If you are a slacker at work, don't take responsibility for your decisions, and don't get along with others, no one will want to friend you or give you a positive review. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years it will become customary to provide a link to one of those sites when applying for a job.

And as far as businesses are concerned, potential customers check online review boards and it is easy for dissatisfied former customers to let the world know how they feel. I read that some small businesses had already sued review websites claming that the bad reviews they received were a significant impediment to securing new business.
 
Thinka said:
..., potential customers check online review boards and it is easy for dissatisfied former customers to let the world know how they feel.
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So a few anonymous, vicious people could potentially shut down the operations of an online business by posting lies? Interesting.

Thinka said:
I read that some small businesses had already sued review websites claming that the bad reviews they received were a significant impediment to securing new business.
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Suing and winning in court are two very different things. I'd also wonder at the judgements and the payouts. Tons of lawsuits are won everyday, but the payouts lag far, far behind due to enforcement issues.

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
So a few anonymous, vicious people could potentially shut down the operations of an online business by posting lies? Interesting.



Suing and winning in court are two very different things. I'd also wonder at the judgements and the payouts. Tons of lawsuits are won everyday, but the payouts lag far, far behind due to enforcement issues.

Baron Max
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I'm talking about brick-and-mortar businesses that get online reviews. Why not? If you are dissatisfied with your local business and tell three friends, maybe one of them will in turn mention that to another couple of people. On the other hand, if you post your review online, it will be seen by hundreds/thousands of people who might let their own friends know that they had come across negative feedback. I think the effect on the business could be disastrous. If customers have nothing else to base their decision on, they are likely to take bad reviews into account. Also, review boards are sponsored by advertizers that target consumers, not by the businesses themselves. Unless that revenue model changes, there will be no insentive for review boards to limit negative reviews. Also, the net impact on the local economy is still the same because consumers will still shop somewhere, so I don't see how the businesses could persuade politicians to enact new laws that would limit negative reviews. So, yes, I think you are right that suing is different from winning.
 
S.A.M. said:
There was a time when vows meant you could trust the other person. Now we need to decide on prenuptial agreements and consider separate bank accounts before we agree to love and cherish "forever".
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You mean romantic characterizations of a man making a woman his property for breeding and sandwich fixing purposes?
 
Thinka said:
I think that everyone is more competitive these days, and it is more difficult to get ahead. Therefore, people are willing to do more. Individualistic behavior is encouraged, especially in the West. Being results-oriented is considered a virtue. Also, the fact that we live in a larger community is also a big factor--reputation does not matter much anymore.

By the way, I think that as online business networks and merchant feedback sites gain popularity, we'll see that people will become more responsible in their dealings with others.
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So basically honesty is a function of social control?

But I see what you mean. Who doesn't read reviews? Things like Angie's list gain you reputation points. There are "communities" and "forums" everywhere that reference the sellers and buyers and even bloggers want comments and feedback.
 
S.A.M. said:
But I see what you mean. Who doesn't read reviews? Things like Angie's list gain you reputation points. There are "communities" and "forums" everywhere that reference the sellers and buyers and even bloggers want comments and feedback.
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Yeah, but notice that if everyone is dishonest, then what good are their reviews and comments, etc? Can you believe them? And if not, .....?

So, see, honesty is important ....yet most everyone here at sciforums will and can justify telling lies! Duh?

Baron Max
 
There is one time when people are excruciatingly honest. When they've been screwed.
 
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