What Is Your Dog Thinking?

milkweed said:
(when they are sold to english speaking people, they have to use german and teach the dog the english equivalent).
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I don't buy it.

I did watch a great documentary about animal language, though.
There were a troop of monkeys that were relocated from somewhere (India, maybe?) to San Antonio Texas.
This troop socialized with other troops when they were in India.
Researchers put a poisonous snake in the area of a troop that remained in the area and recorded the sounds the monkeys made.
Later they played that sound back, and the monkeys all acted in teh same way they did when the snake was there.
They played that same sound for the monkeys in Texas, and they acted as though the poisonous snake was there.

Next, they introduced the Texas monkeys to a rattlesnake.
None of them had ever seen a rattlesnake before, so they didn't respond in their usual frantic manner when a poisonous snake was around.
After some investigation, and the snake showing it's fangs and such, they realized it was dangerous and started the frantic behavior again.
When they brought the rattlesnake back (it may have been a few times, I am not sure), one of the monkeys made a call and they all acted like there was a poisonous snake there.

THEN, they brought that sound back to the troop in India, and when they played it, the monkeys did not react at all.
It seems that the Texas monkeys made up a new warning call (word) for this new thing they discovered.
It was regarded as the first time a non-human animal was witnessed developing language.
 
Originally Posted by milkweed
(when they are sold to english speaking people, they have to use german and teach the dog the english equivalent).

one_raven said:
I don't buy it.
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I do. Dogs definitely recognize specific phonemes in specific orders. So a new language does cause problems. Sure screaming Halto in an angry voice might make a English hearing dog stop. If a cop screamed 'stop' at me in Mandarin, I would probably get the idea. But my dogs recognized proper names, the names of vegetables and other foods and certain sequences of words. Tossing the same things at them in German would have met with a blank stare.
 
one_raven said:
I don't buy it.
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Well, I learned about this when my family was considering buying a dog from a german breeder. They had sold dogs to americans before (this is how we found out about their breeding program) and had the translation material available. We were advised there would be some trama for the dog as it learned the new language due to accent differences. Trama being the dog would be insecure for a while, more than normal.

This also came up when a couple from Argentina contacted us about purchasing a dog because their english was limited. They knew about the language barrier before we even mentioned it.

If you think about it, the words you speak to your dog and what it knows as come, sit, wanna go outside. How in the world would that dog know spanish if it wasnt taught the translation?

one_raven said:
I did watch a great documentary about animal language, though.
There were a troop of monkeys that were relocated from somewhere (India, maybe?) to San Antonio Texas.
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I havent bothered to google it, you might be interested enough to investigate further. An issue came up with s. american monkeys (cant remember the type). They are a threatened specie and there was a breeding program for them in the US. A problem occurred when trying to release these captive raised monkey back into their natural habitat. What they did to resolve it was record monkey calls in the native habitat, then raised the captive young with recordings so they could speak the language. The captive raised group had their own language signals, but it was not the same thing as the wild ones. If I remember correctly, they found different dialecs of this species of monkey, which had to be included if they were trying to introduce the monkey into different ranges. I believe they have also discovered this with orangutans (dialecs).
 
one_raven said:
I would not say his experiments are perfect, nor do I suggest they prove anything - I do, however, think they warrant a closer look.
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That's what he always says. He seems to be nothing more than an author of science speculation.
 
Doreen said:
I do. Dogs definitely recognize specific phonemes in specific orders. So a new language does cause problems.
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The research in the article posted seems to deny this.
It could very well be the same adjustment period because they have to learn new body language and a new personality.
Besides, even if they do recognize words and unserstand they mean something, that doesn't mean you need to "translate" - you simply need to teach them new words. They are not "bilingual", they just know 20 commands now, instead of 10.
 
milkweed said:
I havent bothered to google it, you might be interested enough to investigate further. An issue came up with s. american monkeys (cant remember the type). They are a threatened specie and there was a breeding program for them in the US. A problem occurred when trying to release these captive raised monkey back into their natural habitat. What they did to resolve it was record monkey calls in the native habitat, then raised the captive young with recordings so they could speak the language. The captive raised group had their own language signals, but it was not the same thing as the wild ones. If I remember correctly, they found different dialecs of this species of monkey, which had to be included if they were trying to introduce the monkey into different ranges. I believe they have also discovered this with orangutans (dialecs).
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This sounds familar to me.
I wonder if it is the same project I watched the documentary on. It was a few years ago, so the memory is a bit dim.
 
what did Laika think of the last 30 seconds in space, last 30 seconds of oxygen, last 30 seconds of life?

she thought of her master, the humans who sent her there, she cried because she could no longer see them again.
 
draqon said:
what did Laika think of the last 30 seconds in space, last 30 seconds of oxygen, last 30 seconds of life?

she thought of her master, the humans who sent her there, she cried because she could no longer see them again.
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I'm glad we have a dog psychic here, because otherwise we never would have known.
Thank you.
 
one_raven said:
The research in the article posted seems to deny this.
It could very well be the same adjustment period because they have to learn new body language and a new personality.
Besides, even if they do recognize words and unserstand they mean something, that doesn't mean you need to "translate" - you simply need to teach them new words. They are not "bilingual", they just know 20 commands now, instead of 10.
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If its 10 commands in german and the same 10 commands in spanish, it is bi-lingual (as far as a dog can be). Its also dogs which understand their deaf owners hand signals along with verbal commands issued by other people.

http://en.beijing2008.cn/paralympic/news/news/n214113815.shtml
 
one_raven said:
Besides, even if they do recognize words and unserstand they mean something, that doesn't mean you need to "translate" - you simply need to teach them new words. They are not "bilingual", they just know 20 commands now, instead of 10.
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This I agree with. But remember that many commands are received out of sight of the owner. Also I often would notice one of my dogs run into the room if he heard certain Names - I am talking on the phone to the person or about them. People he especially liked. If I had called Samantha, Beatrice I am 100% certain he would have continued being flopped in his corner bemoaning the sloth of his owner in a silent huff.
 
I use hand signals with my dogs.

I think the line between conditioned response and understanding is a difficult one to see, and even more difficult for those emotionally attached to the individual dogs.
I could swear my dog understands me (just one, the other is dumb as a lump) but I am not sure that this is really true.
I'm not saying there is no understanding - I am very curious how much there is, which is why I am looking forward to this study.

This is also why I would like to see someone continue with and expand upon Sheldrake's work.
 
one_raven said:
I think the line between conditioned response and understanding is a difficult one to see
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It certainly is for me--I mean, many don't even need to look at the screen when they're typing. Henceforth I shall stick with books--Coppinger to Bateson to Griffin, et al--and experience; this "conversation" stuff just doesn't seem to cut it.
 
milkweed said:
Source please. [Regarding the higher incidence of the alpha instinct in pitbulls than other breeds]
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I'll have to get back to you. It's been several years since I first encountered that. It's hard to do a Google search on anything concerning pitbulls since they're such a popular topic.

Nonetheless it stands to reason that dogs that are bred to fight other dogs would have to have a strong alpha instinct, since--among members of a pack-social species--competing for dominance is the usual motivation for fighting. Otherwise fighting--which at best dissipates energy and distracts attention and at worst causes injury--works against the welfare of the pack and is therefore not a survival trait. Over a couple of decades of breeding dogs I have observed that the individuals who have no interest in leadership steadfastly avoid fights. If another dog challenges them they roll over on their backs and offer their throats for a ritual bite, a standard gesture of submission.

Unfortunately this doesn't work out very well when they encounter a wolf or a coyote. The dogs, with their fifteen thousand years of breeding for a tolerant, cosmopolitan attitude, regard their wild cousins as unusual dogs who probably have some interesting stories to tell, while the wolves and coyotes regard the dogs as dinner.

Our Lhasa Apsos were not bred for fighting, but rather for being independent watchdogs. The alpha instinct helps them feel comfortable being alone, something most dogs don't tolerate well. Turn twelve of them loose and rather than forming a pack they'll run off in twelve different directions.
Some breeds of dog have been ruined by breeding programs. Looks over quality.
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Especially in the USA. The AKC is worthless. You can inbreed for six generations to get a particular muzzle shape or curl to the tail, and they will happily register your dogs. We breed for health and temperament and our clients come back for more and refer their friends.
I already posted that just like people, some dogs are smarter than others.
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Indeed. Poodles and Maltese are the Einsteins of the dog world. Lhasas are very much not.
 
My dogs they are thinking Damn I have the life I get food and treats when ever I want it and I get my poop picked up and all I have to do is let them pet me and make think think I am happy to see them when they get home. Tha is what my dogs think I am sure of it.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Nonetheless it stands to reason that dogs that are bred to fight other dogs would have to have a strong alpha instinct, since--among members of a pack-social species--competing for dominance is the usual motivation for fighting. Otherwise fighting--which at best dissipates energy and distracts attention and at worst causes injury--works against the welfare of the pack and is therefore not a survival trait. Over a couple of decades of breeding dogs I have observed that the individuals who have no interest in leadership steadfastly avoid fights. If another dog challenges them they roll over on their backs and offer their throats for a ritual bite, a standard gesture of submission.
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Pits were breed to not fear the other pack and be willing to go in regardless of size of the target. This is different than what they do within their own pack and I think the cases of attack point this out. Pits raised together get out and attack (as a pack) outsiders. They work together to do this (or alone).

Pits went through the same thing German shepards, Dobes, Rots and several other big breeds went through, untrained people wanting a bad-assed dog, or the morons like Vick.

The terrier breeds as a whole are a tough bunch of animals. Rat terriers and the breeds purpose (ignoring what the show breeders did) to scotties and sky terriers bred to go face first into badger holes and kill the occupants, to Airdales going after bears. They are all hunting dogs rather than a tool for hunting. The terriers job did not stop on scenting of the target, or begin when the human had shot some birds out of the sky/water.

Its not about alpha. They live quite well within their packs.

Fraggle Rocker said:
The AKC is worthless. You can inbreed for six generations to get a particular muzzle shape or curl to the tail, and they will happily register your dogs. We breed for health and temperament and our clients come back for more and refer their friends.
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The dogs are purebred and they meet the requirements of purebred. This line breeding is what got the specialists within the dog world and began hundreds of years before the AKC was formed. It is exactly how lhasa apsos came into being as a recognized purebred dog and should be viewed separately from the back-yard/puppy mill breeders who are not interested in the breed of dog, but are motivated by producing an income.
 
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