What Is Your Dog Thinking?

superstring01

Moderator
If you're have and/or love dogs, this article on how dogs think will be fascinating to you.

The Secrets Inside Your Dog's Mind
By Carl Zimmer, Time Magazine
Monday, Sep. 21, 2009




Brian Hare, assistant professor of evolutionary anthropology at Duke University, holds out a dog biscuit.

"Henry!" he says. Henry is a big black schnauzer-poodle mix--a schnoodle, in the words of his owner, Tracy Kivell, another Duke anthropologist. Kivell holds on to Henry's collar so that he can only gaze at the biscuit.

~String
 
In a role reversal, it is not uncommon for my dog to try and communicate his want to me. I think most dog owners would agree that dogs give signals to their owners with regards to play, food, and nature calling. If my dog wants to go outside it is usually accompanied with a roll of his head towards the door. How many of you have seen a dog place his two front paws down and then sort of genuflect towards you by bowing low, just to convey he wants to play?

The researchers think its amazing for a dog to understand finger pointing but I think its even more amazing when dogs figure out their best way of communicating to us.
 
... How many of you have seen a dog place his two front paws down and then sort of genuflect towards you by bowing low, just to convey he wants to play?...

Dogs perceive any kind of other members they live together as a pack, right? So you are the head of the pack, aren't you? If he wants to play, according to dog rules, do you think could he be trying to show that he's not challenging you (the alpha), but merely introducing a play? Acts of genuflecting, bowing low are what dogs do to each other when trying to show their attentions is not hostile. Especially to the ones stronger than them. Anyway, I don't have a dog. Me cat person! :)

This "pointing out" thing is fascinating.
 
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The reading of the finger pointing may be unique too humans and dogs, but metacommunication of this sort is hardly that unique in that most mammals exhibit such. Play involves metacommunication, or the exchange of signals which convey that what is going on is "play": a nip denotes a bite, but not what is denoted by a bite--lest there be some serious problems of an antisocial nature. Mammals know fully well when they are playing and when they are trying to beat the shit out of or kill one another.

As regards the kids and the cups versus the dogs and the cups: sedentary folks typically peceive (and cognate) in a field dependant fashion, i.e. a holistic manner in which the parts merge into the whole--the human controls and "points" out the meaning, and all the little details are overlooked. Give an autistic or a, heh, proper "savage" the same test, and he--like the non-humans--will likely pick the right cup irrespective of the pointing finger; for their perception is more apt to be field independant, i.e. parts and perceived discretely and separate from the whole--the focus is upon everything simultaneously. The former is more conducive to tighter social cohesiveness, and is virtually imperative in massive social groups; the latter is better suited to survival in the field. Of course we (myself) f/i types tend to miss the "point" in general quite often, but it's still got some advantages in "proper" society.
 
Its good they are starting to figure out tests that prove what we dog owners already knew.

Yes there is pack signals, however, its interspecies communication, and dogs are just better at it than people are. Friendly, socialized dogs will communicate the want to play with people outside their pack in the same manner. So its a little bigger than basic pack dynamics.
 
Dogs perceive any kind of other members they live together as a pack, right? So you are the head of the pack, aren't you? If he wants to play, according to dog rules, do you think could he be trying to show that he's not challenging you (the alpha), but merely introducing a play? Acts of genuflecting, bowing low are what dogs do to each other

The thread is about what the dog is thinking and I believe in this case he is thinking 'play'. Any attempt to communicate to us has to mean the dog is thinking. No?
 
Its good they are starting to figure out tests that prove what we dog owners already knew.

There's actually some information in there that runs contrary to what most people, even the "experts" think. My father, being one of those "experts", is an AKC certified Yellow Lab and Beagle breeder and trainer. When he read this article, even he was surprised by a few of the findings.

~String
 
There's actually some information in there that runs contrary to what most people, even the "experts" think. My father, being one of those "experts", is an AKC certified Yellow Lab and Beagle breeder and trainer. When he read this article, even he was surprised by a few of the findings.

~String

Lots of people have been trained to think oh.. dogs dont know this / that. Most are shushed as kids when they begin to apply thought to the family pet. And just like with people, there are variations of intelligence. Could you expand on what your dad found surprising? Because I wonder how much was surprise, how much was I never thought of it that way and how much was, when I thought about it, I remembered stuff.

I grew up in a family that raised german shepards for show. We had a good rep for good smart healthy dogs. It got started with one dog in obedience, a dog who achieved AKC UD. I was very lucky to be around well trained dogs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obedience_trial

After I got married we had a pit who the ex hit with the car and ended up deaf. I trained her to respond to hand signals in very little time. I could unwrap her from whatever she got tangled in from the window of the house (she was on a chain when outside after becoming deaf). Those commands involved using the hand/point the direction I wanted her to go (left/right) come, stay, and get (go away) hand signals in combinations come left, get right, get forward, etc. Trained the kids dog the same way but with both voice and hand signals.

Another breed that impresses me though I havent owned one is the Border collie. I have no doubt they would blow me away with their basic intelligence.

As far as the 'experiment' with dogs cowering when hollered at, I believe this researcher missed the mark. The only way to test the theory is to have two or more dogs present with one guilty and note the differences. I say this from real life experience with guilty cat/ innocent dog and the garbage spilled across my kitchen. I missed the signal the first time, when the dog tried telling me it was the cat. The second time I caught it. The third time I had no doubt. There was no fourth time. I also saw variations growing up with the guilty dog pretending they didnt know why the people were hollering (and no declaration of innocence (the submissive posture)). A dog who doesnt want trouble is submissive in confrontation (I didnt do it = I dont want to fight = submissive behavior). A guilty dog who doesnt want trouble pretends not to see the signal of confrontation.

Anyways, there was nothing in the story that surprised me. I am glad the science is catching up with the reality. I look forward to them finally discovering a dog who smiles is mimicing human expression of happy/good. Its a fantastic example of dogs trying to communicate with humans, using human body language. The dogs smile goes completely against its natural communication meaning (and I am not talking about those dogs showing their teeth because they are afraid of the camera or a mask). I am talking about the dog who smiles at you when you get up in the morning, without being told to smile. Not all dogs do this, because it is so against their own body language meaning. I am talking about dogs who smile when you say "wanna go to the park" and you never baited them with food to encourage the smiling.
 
The thread is about what the dog is thinking and I believe in this case he is thinking 'play'. Any attempt to communicate to us has to mean the dog is thinking. No?

They have some behavioral patterns. Some genetic to their species, some they learn from other dogs. But there are some basic (default :p ) kind of reactions or actions all animals do. As far as I know, domestic dogs perceive other members of the family they live in as a 'pack'. So their owner as the head of that pack. Surely they are intelligent species, but what I tried to point out is, they are doing some things according to that instinctive behavioral pattern. Fitting to their role in the pack. So, I thought, may be, your dog is just doing that.

About 'thinking' play. In my aspect, result of any kind of thinking would be acted according to his role in the pack. For example, if they were a species of living alone, but contacted their own just to mate, their behavioral pattern would be different than another species live in a pack. He probably wouldn't see you as the head of the pack, so he wouldn't be attached to you.

Like cats. They accept to live with other species, but get attached to the place they live in rather than the species they live with.
 
. . . "wanna go to the park". . .

Oh, LORD, we can't even say the "P-A-R-K" or "T-R-E-A-T" words around my yellow lab Remington (aka "Remy"). Once uttered, the word becomes an instant commitment that he won't let you forget. I call it the "park dance" and it involves what looks like a combination of excited jumping and doggie tap dancing. It's hysterical. . . and the maneuver usually works to his benefit.

"Okay buddy, in the car. . ." and off we go.

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~String
 
Like cats. They accept to live with other species, but get attached to the place they live in rather than the species they live with.

I don't buy that, exactly. I have cats and dogs. They react distinctly to individuals. Dogs, obviously having a pack mentality, have a different personality with different people. I may want to see affection, but if I were to venture a guess, there's some emotional attachment there.

I have two cats. One I adopted as an adult (from a pet shelter) who's aloof and is just happy to have a nice big place to sleep and regular meals; the other who was a kitten when I adopted him, is clearly more emotionally attached to me (at least on some level) because of the fact that I raised him.

~String
 
Dogs perceive any kind of other members they live together as a pack, right? So you are the head of the pack, aren't you?
Dogs and humans are both pack-social species and packs have hierarchies. The psychological adaptation that dogs have made since branching off as a subspecies of wolf, Canis lupus familiaris, is to be comfortable in a multi-species pack. In addition to humans, dogs will bond with cats, parrots, monkeys, rabbits, pigs, goats, assorted rodents, and virtually any reasonably docile species that resides with them.

They also have a lower incidence of a strong alpha instinct than wolves--surely the result of our selective breeding as well as of the personality of the original individuals who chose to live with us instead of staying with the wolf pack. Most dogs will happliy submit to the authority of a human who appears able to kill a steer, a couple of pigs and several chickens every month.

Pit bulls are an exception, with a strong alpha instinct. So are the Lhasa Apsos we raise, originally bred to be unsupervised watchdogs around the Buddhist temples in Tibet. They don't understand the hierarchy thing, they think we're just really nice pack-mates who are out doing our job of hunting cows, while they do their job of protecting the house from burglars.
This "pointing out" thing is fascinating.
I also think it's a little overblown. You can spend years trying to teach the average dog to understand pointing, and he will still walk over and sniff your fingertip.
Yes there is pack signals, however, its interspecies communication, and dogs are just better at it than people are.
I beg to differ. Dogs are better at non-verbal communication than we are, because (duh) that's all they have. You could say that about almost every animal! Since Homo sapiens invented the technology of spoken language, that's what we have specialized in. Most of us haven't bothered to hone our skills with body language, facial expressions, etc. Actors do, as well as diplomats, con men, and various other professionals who find it handy.
For example, if they were a species of living alone, but contacted their own just to mate, their behavioral pattern would be different than another species live in a pack.
Social species, whether pack-social like humans, dogs, horses, etc., or herd-social like cattle, antelope, pigeons, etc., have to be able to communicate with their pack- or herd-mates, so they evolve the skill. Solitary species like bears and orangutans don't need it and don't develop it.
Like cats. They accept to live with other species, but get attached to the place they live in rather than the species they live with.
Not quite true. Felis sylvestris in the wild is a solitary species. But in captivity a phenomenon known as neoteny occurs. We treat cats the way a mother treats her kittens--feeding them, cleaning them, carrying them, disciplining them. This triggers a reversion to the instincts of kittenhood, when they were social, played with each other, and gave some (minimal) respect to their mother's authority.

Cats aren't attracted to humans generically as a species, but they love the people they live with. And they are bright enough to figure out that humans like cats, so even feral cats will hang around human habitation waiting for a handout.

Or to pick off the rodents that are also attracted to our habitation. That's probably how they came to join the human-dog pack in the first place. Evidence of the first domestic cats pops up in Egypt just about the time they were building the first granaries.
 
I don't buy that, exactly. I have cats and dogs. They react distinctly to individuals. Dogs, obviously having a pack mentality, have a different personality with different people. I may want to see affection, but if I were to venture a guess, there's some emotional attachment there.

I have two cats. One I adopted as an adult (from a pet shelter) who's aloof and is just happy to have a nice big place to sleep and regular meals; the other who was a kitten when I adopted him, is clearly more emotionally attached to me (at least on some level) because of the fact that I raised him.

~String

Dogs and humans are both pack-social species and packs have hierarchies. The psychological adaptation that dogs have made since branching off as a subspecies of wolf, Canis lupus familiaris, is to be comfortable in a multi-species pack. In addition to humans, dogs will bond with cats, parrots, monkeys, rabbits, pigs, goats, assorted rodents, and virtually any reasonably docile species that resides with them.

They also have a lower incidence of a strong alpha instinct than wolves--surely the result of our selective breeding as well as of the personality of the original individuals who chose to live with us instead of staying with the wolf pack. Most dogs will happliy submit to the authority of a human who appears able to kill a steer, a couple of pigs and several chickens every month.

Pit bulls are an exception, with a strong alpha instinct. So are the Lhasa Apsos we raise, originally bred to be unsupervised watchdogs around the Buddhist temples in Tibet. They don't understand the hierarchy thing, they think we're just really nice pack-mates who are out doing our job of hunting cows, while they do their job of protecting the house from burglars.I also think it's a little overblown. You can spend years trying to teach the average dog to understand pointing, and he will still walk over and sniff your fingertip.I beg to differ. Dogs are better at non-verbal communication than we are, because (duh) that's all they have. You could say that about almost every animal! Since Homo sapiens invented the technology of spoken language, that's what we have specialized in. Most of us haven't bothered to hone our skills with body language, facial expressions, etc. Actors do, as well as diplomats, con men, and various other professionals who find it handy.Social species, whether pack-social like humans, dogs, horses, etc., or herd-social like cattle, antelope, pigeons, etc., have to be able to communicate with their pack- or herd-mates, so they evolve the skill. Solitary species like bears and orangutans don't need it and don't develop it.Not quite true. Felis sylvestris in the wild is a solitary species. But in captivity a phenomenon known as neoteny occurs. We treat cats the way a mother treats her kittens--feeding them, cleaning them, carrying them, disciplining them. This triggers a reversion to the instincts of kittenhood, when they were social, played with each other, and gave some (minimal) respect to their mother's authority.

Cats aren't attracted to humans generically as a species, but they love the people they live with. And they are bright enough to figure out that humans like cats, so even feral cats will hang around human habitation waiting for a handout.

Or to pick off the rodents that are also attracted to our habitation. That's probably how they came to join the human-dog pack in the first place. Evidence of the first domestic cats pops up in Egypt just about the time they were building the first granaries.

I see what you mean and agree with you both up to a point. I've never looked after a dog as long as his life, only lived with for a couple of months. dogs are difficult animals, in my opinion because they are more like children. And yes there are cats with that character, i.e. my current one, she is 16 and though I adopted it when she is 10, she is much more attached to me -than my previous kitten adopted ones and also than her previous owner, my grand ma. Only, generally I find cats more independent and individual. In my country we have stray cats and dogs everywhere. In my neighbour hood, they are over domesticated. As you said Fraggle Rocker, they are too used to be fed, and there isn't much fight about who to mate compared to my summer house cats. It's in Aegean Site and cats are obviously 'wilder' and it's almost impossible to behave them as I do to the ones in the city. They are also the more loner types as you may guess. But they also live with people. On the other hand, stray dogs in both places behave almost exactly the same. So compared the dogs, I find them different. Dogs seem more humaine in general, I guess. :p LOL

You Remy is lovely String.
Thanks for the info, Fraggle Rocker.
 
This is Bruce from last Halloween.




What Bruce is thinking;

FFS Captain Jack Sparrow....ohhhhhh the shame. If they take me out looking like this, I am done with the bitches in this neighborhood.
 
Oh, LORD, we can't even say the "P-A-R-K" or "T-R-E-A-T" words around my yellow lab Remington (aka "Remy"). Once uttered, the word becomes an instant commitment that he won't let you forget. I call it the "park dance" and it involves what looks like a combination of excited jumping and doggie tap dancing. It's hysterical. . . and the maneuver usually works to his benefit.

"Okay buddy, in the car. . ." and off we go.



~String

Our Dog is the same. As soon as you say Do you WANNA he already starts getting excited. He now understands when you spell out W A L K, you don't even have to say it.

It's funny because he is very intelligent when he wants something, but if we ask him to do things sometimes he looks away like he can't hear you. We always laugh because he has this look like he is saying to himself.....I am ignoring you Asshole....I can't heeeeaaarrrrr youuuuuuu lol.
 
I love beagles. As I mentioned earlier, my dad breeds them (well. . . used to breed them) and I found them to be highly trainable and amazingly loyal. They, of course, always loved my dad the most (he, being the "alpha"), I also found some of their behaviors somewhat catlike. They lick their paws and clean their face like cats (though, Remy does this, but he may have learned it from them) and on the off chance that they would go running (I grew up on a farm in the country, so not a big deal) they would usually bring back "treats", consisting of various captured and killed rabbits, squirrels, ground hogs and whatnot; usually dropped--joyously--at the feet of my father.

I found it a little gross (which is why I don't let my cats out, I would rather supply all the food to the pride, no help needed), but my dad always congratulated them and thanked them implicitly. My dad (a avid hunter) and beagles being, probably the best (and best known) scent hunters, would even without his direction, go savaging for local game.

~String
 
Pit bulls are an exception, with a strong alpha instinct.
Source please.

You can spend years trying to teach the average dog to understand pointing, and he will still walk over and sniff your fingertip.
Some breeds of dog have been ruined by breeding programs. Looks over quality. Maybe your experience is related to the breed. I already posted that just like people, some dogs are smarter than others.

Then again, maybe its the trainer (duh).
I beg to differ. Dogs are better at non-verbal communication than we are, because (duh) that's all they have.
Beg to differ all you want. I didnt say non-verbal communication, I said inter-specie communication. Maybe I should have said cross-specie communication. I can teach a dog a bunch of words and that dog will understand its meaning. I only know a couple of dog words and their general meaning. You have heard dogs barks that vary. I know the difference between a threat bark and a Hey, who are you bark. I also know there are various growls used which are across the board equal, one means play the other means serious. So while we have verbal communication on one level, dogs also have verbal communication with tone being the translation key. Other dogs know what it means (regional dialecs aside). Also, dogs raised in germany know german (when they are sold to english speaking people, they have to use german and teach the dog the english equivalent). So dogs can be bi-lingual also.

Then we have the guide dogs for the deaf (and blind), who know verbal and/or sign language. And they can still communicate with other dogs as well as notify their owner of specific things and still be guided by the persons speaking/sighted kid.
 
Oh, LORD, we can't even say the "P-A-R-K" or "T-R-E-A-T" words around my yellow lab Remington (aka "Remy"). Once uttered, the word becomes an instant commitment that he won't let you forget. I call it the "park dance" and it involves what looks like a combination of excited jumping and doggie tap dancing. It's hysterical. . . and the maneuver usually works to his benefit.

"Okay buddy, in the car. . ." and off we go.

~String

Nice looking dog String.

Tell the dog Park and bring him someplace else (not the vet) and see his reaction. Might be a case study so to speak.

A friend went hunting with a buddy who had a fantastic bird dog. The dog flushed a bird, the jokers missed. The dog shrugged it off and flushed some more birds, the fools missed. The dog did it again, the losers missed. The dog looked at them in disgust and went back to the car. He refused to hunt for these fools if they werent gonna hit the target.
 
Rupert Sheldrake has also done come pretty astounding experiments with people and their pets apparently having some sort of connection with each other.
In one experiment that I watched, he had someone leave home, and as soon as she turned around to head back home again, her dog got excited and waited by the door.
He did it again, but this time in a taxi - same results.
He did it again, but instead of heading home, she headed the direction of home, but was going somewhere else, and there was no reaction at all.

After some criticizms over his methods of communication and the possibility of the dog picking up on his own body language, they did it once more, but no one in the house knew what time she started heading back in the taxi. They filmed both dog and owner seperately, and compared the timestamps on the videos. The moment she started to head for home, the dog got excited and waited by the door.

I would not say his experiments are perfect, nor do I suggest they prove anything - I do, however, think they warrant a closer look.
 
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