What is your belief regarding the existence of "God"?

[jpappl]

SolusCado,

Which is why atheists shouldn't think someone is an idiot just because they believe in God. Clearly, it is possible to follow a religious text without sacrificing logic and scientific knowledge.

No they shouldn't.

The question is usually not about the belief in god for me, it's what god are you believing in, why do you believe or in other words what is of such compelling evidence to you that a specific god does exist.

Then, how does the religious text supporting such a specific god compare with our current understanding. You have chosen to try and reconcile the two. Better than most who just say it's the word of god or inspired by god.

The question still and will always remain for you, how can you possibly interpret the texts to meet our current understanding, it's not a science book and like you said is not intended to explain how things work.

But it does attempt to explain how things came to be in the sense of who did what.

Read Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos," and read up on the other subjects I have outlined in this thread. I didn't make that stuff up.

In this book, does he claim that we don't have freewill or only the perception of freewill ?

Again, the very idea of "everything is already in its place" is something that only makes sense in the context of the passage of time, something that is highly relative and only has its specific meaning to us. The "everything that's in its place" applies to God as well. I don't believe in God out of some hope that he is going to change my future in some way, so why does your statement even have relevance?

Because the reasons to believe in a god, worship a god etc is because they can have an impact on you. Specifically they have the final say for your heaven, hell, afterlife etc.

If you take all that away, because your future was already written then the next words that come out of your mouth we already pre-determined as well.

Ahhh - first of all, those who believe in a soul are the same ones that believe in God - the two go together. So if you are going to make an argument regarding the relevance of God, you have to acknowledge the existence of a soul in that argument. And the ideas regarding heaven and hell are that they exist outside our universe (in some sort of spiritual realm), so THOSE futures are very much open to change.

Where does it say in the bible that heaven and hell are outside of the universe ?

Or is this just one of your interpretations.

No, there IS a need for God in regards to your soul, which is not constrained to the staticity of the future.

No, everything that is part of spacetime is already in its place. Our souls are not part of that reality. (Or so goes my belief.)

Does it make sense for a god to leave you with no control but offer you a soul. Why and how can the soul be affected by a pre-determined body whose choices and actions are already pre-determined.

Again, no reason for god.

If you want to make the claim that the body is just a carrier for the soul and the soul is different from you then whose or what is in your body.

You can't affect the soul without also being able to have freewill to make choices. Otherwise the choices have already been made.

It's getting sticky here.

Your claiming that the soul can be affected, but the body and mind only has the perceived notion of choice. Yet your choices are what most impact what you are referring to as your soul. Even an attempt to learn about the soul and a path to god is you exercising your freewill. Otherwise even your search for god is a pre-determined exercise in futility.

See above. It does. You won't see the phrase "free will" because that is a philosophical concept, but physics does INDEED indicate that the future is already written

I disagree. Our future, whatever that may be is affected by our choices.

Now, I am not suggesting that our choices affect the movement of celestial bodies lol. Just to be clear. But where we end up is affected by what we do today.

Just look in the rear-view mirror. Does physics tell us that our past history was pre-determined ?

What if we never went after Hitler ? What if Hitler never got into power ?

The choices made had an effect to be sure.

Nope. Again, see above. Our souls can mature or not. God has left that in our hands.

See above my comment on your body and soul.

I agree that we have free will, but it doesn't affect the outcome of physical reality

When you say physical reality what do you mean.

Who the next president will be ?

Or is it limited to the giant meteor that's about to hit ?

 

[SolusCado]

In this book, does he claim that we don't have freewill or only the perception of freewill ?

Like I said, you won't see the term free will, but he does explain how special relativity results in a universe where all of time exists simultaneously, meaning our futures are already written (so to speak).[/QUOTE]

Because the reasons to believe in a god, worship a god etc is because they can have an impact on you. Specifically they have the final say for your heaven, hell, afterlife etc.

If you take all that away, because your future was already written then the next words that come out of your mouth we already pre-determined as well.

Again, my belief is that God's impact is on my soul, not the physical universe (beyond the impact that was had by creation itself).

Where does it say in the bible that heaven and hell are outside of the universe ?

Or is this just one of your interpretations.

Interpretation, though not one of 'mine'. It's a pretty common understanding. No one has thought that heaven was some clouds in the sky since the dark ages.

Does it make sense for a god to leave you with no control but offer you a soul. Why and how can the soul be affected by a pre-determined body whose choices and actions are already pre-determined.

You can perform the same actions out of anger or love. The actions will be what they will be. The state of your soul is not impacted by the relativity of time.

If you want to make the claim that the body is just a carrier for the soul and the soul is different from you then whose or what is in your body.

You can't affect the soul without also being able to have freewill to make choices. Otherwise the choices have already been made.

Your claiming that the soul can be affected, but the body and mind only has the perceived notion of choice. Yet your choices are what most impact what you are referring to as your soul. Even an attempt to learn about the soul and a path to god is you exercising your freewill. Otherwise even your search for god is a pre-determined exercise in futility.

I see the soul as the "real me" and my body and physical presence in this universe as a vehicle. My soul rides through space and time, being subjected to different experiences, memories, and 'choices' during its journey. How it comes out on the other end is dependent on my relationship with God. You either get closer to God through this time in our universe, or further. I'd rather get closer.

I disagree. Our future, whatever that may be is affected by our choices.

Now, I am not suggesting that our choices affect the movement of celestial bodies lol. Just to be clear. But where we end up is affected by what we do today.

Just look in the rear-view mirror. Does physics tell us that our past history was pre-determined ?

What if we never went after Hitler ? What if Hitler never got into power ?

The choices made had an effect to be sure.

All I can do is keep suggesting you read up on the subjects I have provided.

When you say physical reality what do you mean.

Who the next president will be ?

Or is it limited to the giant meteor that's about to hit ?

I mean absolutely everything in the universe. Who the next president will be, whether or not I make it home tonight, what I'm typing right now, or the giant meteor that would hit, except that we hit it with a kinetic missile that knocks it off target, only to have it hit Venus instead, slightly knocking it out of alignment, so that in 100,000 years it collides with Earth and kills every living being.

 

[gmilam]

Well, given the interpretation I presented earlier, it all still makes perfect sense to me. The literal fall from grace wasn't so much something that happened to us, but something we became aware of that was in us already. IOW, we evolved guilt.

It may make perfect sense to you. Unfortunately, you had to take it totally out of context in order to make it make sense.

I keep hearing people discuss guilt. I'm sorry, I don't feel guilty for being human. Why should I?

 

[SolusCado]

It may make perfect sense to you. Unfortunately, you had to take it totally out of context in order to make it make sense.

I keep hearing people discuss guilt. I'm sorry, I don't feel guilty for being human. Why should I?

I don't think I DID take it out of context. The words I substituted had no analogous meaning back when Genesis was written, so how could we possibly expect the original authors to write them?

As for guilt, you've never ever done anything that you felt guilty about? You should get into politics!

 

[M00se1989]

God has the ability to question his own decisions, what makes him different from anyone else?

 

[gmilam]

I don't think I DID take it out of context. The words I substituted had no analogous meaning back when Genesis was written, so how could we possibly expect the original authors to write them?

As for guilt, you've never ever done anything that you felt guilty about? You should get into politics!

Of course I wouldn't expect mere humans to have written your words several thousand years ago, because, as you said, they did not know what we know now. I also wouldn't expect "God" to dumb down his message, seeing as how our very "souls" are at stake if we don't get it right.

But more to the point, you apparently believe Jesus died for an allegory. Paul certainly did not think so.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man [Jesus] the many will be made righteous." (Rom. 5:12-21)

 

[jpappl]

SolusCado,

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
In this book, does he claim that we don't have freewill or only the perception of freewill ? ”

Like I said, you won't see the term free will, but he does explain how special relativity results in a universe where all of time exists simultaneously, meaning our futures are already written (so to speak).

[/QUOTE]

Makes no sense. We can look to the past but can't know the future.

How does he explain our reality, that we experience time and that our history is evidence of choices affecting the future when our future is already written.

He is claiming that freewill does not exist. Which IMO is absurd.

Interpretation, though not one of 'mine'. It's a pretty common understanding. No one has thought that heaven was some clouds in the sky since the dark ages.

Let me ask you this carefully.

When we look at past attempts to explain things scientifically but were wrong. Did we maintain those texts and attempt to re-interpret the text to fit the new understanding or did we write new books ?

Why continue to use as a guide the bible, which as you say man wrote it. If god left it to man to interpret it's words then clearly the chance of numerous errors was likely, if god did not allow him to interpret it, then it is the word of god.

So in the first case you could be following really bad advice. On the other hand, it should have been clear to those at the time what god was saying since they were using the lanquage at the time.

So them believing that god and heaven are in the clouds should have been easy reading for them. They wrote it, it was inspired by god.

You can't have it both ways. Claiming the words have value when it fits and claiming it's mans fault for mis-interpreting when it doesn't.

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
Does it make sense for a god to leave you with no control but offer you a soul. Why and how can the soul be affected by a pre-determined body whose choices and actions are already pre-determined. ”

You can perform the same actions out of anger or love. The actions will be what they will be. The state of your soul is not impacted by the relativity of time.

You don't have a choice in your action remember. It's only a perception. Is your soul only a perception as well perhaps ?

I see the soul as the "real me" and my body and physical presence in this universe as a vehicle. My soul rides through space and time, being subjected to different experiences, memories, and 'choices' during its journey. How it comes out on the other end is dependent on my relationship with God. You either get closer to God through this time in our universe, or further. I'd rather get closer.

So god in your opinion is only interacting with your soul. Ok. Since it is supernatural anything is possible.

So why would god create souls ? What is the purpose.

If the god is omnipotent etc etc what does it need us for ?

Why play the game with our souls ?

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
I disagree. Our future, whatever that may be is affected by our choices.

Now, I am not suggesting that our choices affect the movement of celestial bodies lol. Just to be clear. But where we end up is affected by what we do today.

Just look in the rear-view mirror. Does physics tell us that our past history was pre-determined ?

What if we never went after Hitler ? What if Hitler never got into power ?

The choices made had an effect to be sure. ”

All I can do is keep suggesting you read up on the subjects I have provided.

Not an answer, this needs to be explained.

Provide a specific link if needed.

I am looking for an explanation as to how anyone can know that our future is pre-determined in the sense that it doesn't matter what we want or what our choices are, the future is set.

I think that you are confusing.

The future can not be changed (afterall if we could go in the future then all changes or adjustments have already occurred) with we can not change the future during our present time (choices we make don't create our future reality).

While the former is true, the latter is not.

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
When you say physical reality what do you mean.

Who the next president will be ?

Or is it limited to the giant meteor that's about to hit ? ”

I mean absolutely everything in the universe. Who the next president will be, whether or not I make it home tonight, what I'm typing right now, or the giant meteor that would hit, except that we hit it with a kinetic missile that knocks it off target, only to have it hit Venus instead, slightly knocking it out of alignment, so that in 100,000 years it collides with Earth and kills every living being.

So this mean that I don't have to vote anymore

Sorry, I just don't agree with this.

It doesn't line up with our reality and we have to take a huge leap of faith outside of our reality to make it acceptable to make it work.

In doing so we remove ourselves from the equation and we ignore all of our historical evidence that proves that our choices (whether created by god or not) affect our future.

There is no denying this. So why toss out a perfectly good (reality) with a theory that doesn't match ?

 

[SolusCado]

Of course I wouldn't expect mere humans to have written your words several thousand years ago, because, as you said, they did not know what we know now. I also wouldn't expect "God" to dumb down his message, seeing as how our very "souls" are at stake if we don't get it right.

Souls aren't at stake in the interpretation of Genesis. If you are basically just saying why didn't God make it easier for you to believe, well - perhaps that's a barrier that your soul needs to overcome.

But more to the point, you apparently believe Jesus died for an allegory. Paul certainly did not think so.

First of all, I am a Christian, not a Paulite. (I follow the words of Christ, not necessarily Paul's.) With that said, I don't believe Jesus died for an allegory. I already explained earlier in this thread how I suspect the salvation of Christ works, and I didn't say it was allegorical.

 

[SolusCado]

Makes no sense. We can look to the past but can't know the future.

How does he explain our reality, that we experience time and that our history is evidence of choices affecting the future when our future is already written.

He is claiming that freewill does not exist. Which IMO is absurd.

He doesn't. No one fully understands "the arrow of time". Yet.

Let me ask you this carefully.

When we look at past attempts to explain things scientifically but were wrong. Did we maintain those texts and attempt to re-interpret the text to fit the new understanding or did we write new books ?

We attemted to re-interpret to fit the new understanding.

Why continue to use as a guide the bible, which as you say man wrote it. If god left it to man to interpret it's words then clearly the chance of numerous errors was likely, if god did not allow him to interpret it, then it is the word of god.

So in the first case you could be following really bad advice. On the other hand, it should have been clear to those at the time what god was saying since they were using the lanquage at the time.

So them believing that god and heaven are in the clouds should have been easy reading for them. They wrote it, it was inspired by god.

You can't have it both ways. Claiming the words have value when it fits and claiming it's mans fault for mis-interpreting when it doesn't.

Honestly, I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. OBVIOUSLY men wrote the Bible. And as I said before, it wasn't just some guys sitting there transcribing a voice in their head. It was people that came up with ideas that were of divine origin (or so goes the belief). Those men would have only been able to put to paper words in the context of their time. What part of that do you have a problem with?

You don't have a choice in your action remember. It's only a perception. Is your soul only a perception as well perhaps?

I'm not sure what you are asking here. If you are asking if it is possible there is no such thing as a soul, yes of course it is possible. Just as it is possible that God doesn't exist. I however believe there is a God, and I believe there is a soul, and I believe that the way my soul "grows" is unwritten, that it is not bound by the same laws of physics that matter and energy is.

So god in your opinion is only interacting with your soul. Ok. Since it is supernatural anything is possible.

So why would god create souls ? What is the purpose.

If the god is omnipotent etc etc what does it need us for ?

Why play the game with our souls ?

You're asking me why God does what He does. I have no idea. You'd have to ask Him.

Not an answer, this needs to be explained.

Provide a specific link if needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_interpretation_of_time
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-bebecome/ (particularly section 2.1)
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/2408/ (Note the abstract: "the universe as a timelessly existing four-dimensional world, is the only one that is consistent with special relativity")

 

[Trooper]

Which is why atheists shouldn't think someone is an idiot just because they believe in God.
Clearly, it is possible to follow a religious text without sacrificing logic and scientific knowledge.:wtf:

Where did you come up with this? Did you just pull it out of your asshat?

Religion was invented to control the behavior of stupid people.

Spoiler

http://www.sciforums.com/album.php?albumid=21&pictureid=139

You seem to be giving this all knowing, all powerful, all perfect, deity...human attributes. Which human attributes do you feel do apply to him?
Does he speak to you? Describe him and heaven, please?

 

[Lori_7]

Religion was invented was to control the behavior of stupid people.

AND, let's not forget, to provide one hell of a scapegoat for atheists.

 

[M00se1989]

There are many different reasons a person turns to religion. All of them are true, but none of them can accurately prove their wildest statements. If you follow certain behaviors at certain times does it not then become religious in one way or another. What god do you worship? Certainly not mine.

 

[jpappl]

SolusCado,

He doesn't. No one fully understands "the arrow of time". Yet.

Right. I didn't think he would.

When we look at past attempts to explain things scientifically but were wrong. Did we maintain those texts and attempt to re-interpret the text to fit the new understanding or did we write new books ? ”

We attemted to re-interpret to fit the new understanding.

But we wrote new books, we took the good and expanded on it and when it's not good we toss it out.

Here, you can't toss it out, the good goes with the bad and vice-versa.

But I can't image a christian accepting anything is bad in the bible. So nothing to be thrown out.

Honestly, I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. OBVIOUSLY men wrote the Bible

Lets break it down.

"If god left it to man to interpret it's words then clearly the chance of numerous errors was likely"

So do you accept that it could be riddled with errors ?

"if god did not allow him to interpret it, then it is the word of god."

IE no need for interpretations, in which case since it was written with the language at the time, no need or chance for error. Correct ?

"So in the first case you could be following really bad advice"

or

"them believing that god and heaven are in the clouds should have been easy reading for them."

In this second instance god did not allow interpretation so the chance of error was removed. Thus their interpretation is correct. They understand it in the language of the day.

In this sense it is the literal word. Which would be ludicrous considering the implications. So you are left with only the first option, and I agree that it must have been written by men and thus open to errors.

The next question, since humans wrote it, is what are the errors ?

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
So god in your opinion is only interacting with your soul. Ok. Since it is supernatural anything is possible.

So why would god create souls ? What is the purpose.

If the god is omnipotent etc etc what does it need us for ?

Why play the game with our souls ? ”

You're asking me why God does what He does. I have no idea. You'd have to ask Him.

C'mon man. This is everything right here.

The only thing left on your journey, the only thing that even has a chance of being modified or improved upon is your soul, correct ? Since everything else is already pre-determined.

And you have no idea ?

Dude, dude. DUDE ! LOL.

Well then it's a good question.

Originally Posted by jpappl
Not an answer, this needs to be explained.

Provide a specific link if needed. ”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_...tation_of_time
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-bebecome/ (particularly section 2.1)
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/2408/ (Note the abstract: "the universe as a timelessly existing four-dimensional world, is the only one that is consistent with special relativity")

I'll take a look. Thanks.

Good talk. Got to get to work.

 

[Trooper]

Religion was invented to control the behavior of stupid people.

AND, let's not forget, to provide one hell of a scapegoat for atheists.

Lori Lori Hallelujah! You

And also...

Spoiler

 

[M00se1989]

who says atheists are not also afraid of death. Death is an easy veil that hides ones emotions.

Christians threw many ideas out of the bible at the Geneva convention...

They have also borrowed ideas from other civilizations. For example I believe the current concept of the devil was spawned from aspects of Poseidon as well as some other god"s" (notice the plural) mixed together. The mixture occurred some time between the rise of the Roman empire. They even redecorated A polytheistic dome cutting off some "snakes" in the process...

 

[gmilam]

Souls aren't at stake in the interpretation of Genesis. If you are basically just saying why didn't God make it easier for you to believe, well - perhaps that's a barrier that your soul needs to overcome.



First of all, I am a Christian, not a Paulite. (I follow the words of Christ, not necessarily Paul's.) With that said, I don't believe Jesus died for an allegory. I already explained earlier in this thread how I suspect the salvation of Christ works, and I didn't say it was allegorical.

If you're comfortable throwing out the parts of the bible that you're uncomfortable with, knock yourself out. It's easy to reconcile your faith if you pick and choose what to believe. :bugeye:

But then who are you to say that I have a barrier to overcome? At least I know what I believe and why.

 

[M00se1989]

What do you mean by our souls are at stake?

Not like the galactic alignment is going to unleash untold energy levels due to the amount of mass being in too good a connection...

 

[gmilam]

I'm not saying I believe this stuff, I'm saying that this is what the book says. Have you ever really thought about the words "atonement", "redemption" and "ransom"? How about the image of the "blood of the lamb" or "Lamb of God"?


If someone really believes that Jesus died for their sins, then hopefully they understand why it was necessary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/beliefs/whydidjesusdie_1.shtml

But why was reconciliation needed? Christian theology suggests that although God's creation was perfect, the Devil tempted the first man Adam and sin was brought into the world. Everybody carries this original sin with them which separates them from God, just as Adam and Eve were separated from God when they were cast out of the Garden of Eden.

 

[M00se1989]

Can't we just hold me up at anathema and get this over with?

Yes he died for their sins... That's what usually happens to a radical leader no matter how right they may be. He probably gave his life so his words could live on better. Two options at that point... let a ruler kill your whole following or kill the leader and force his men into silence. Not like it is hard to make up a reason to kill someone...

 

[Trooper]

I scored a new link today. I liked it...:mufc:

"In the end, science is no more compatible with religion than with other superstitions, such as leprechauns. Yet we don't talk about reconciling science with leprechauns. We worry about religion simply because it's the most venerable superstition — and the most politically and financially powerful.

Why does this matter? Because pretending that faith and science are equally valid ways of finding truth not only weakens our concept of truth, it also gives religion an undeserved authority that does the world no good. For it is faith's certainty that it has a grasp on truth, combined with its inability to actually find it, that produces things such as the oppression of women and gays, opposition to stem cell research and euthanasia, attacks on science, denial of contraception for birth control and AIDS prevention, sexual repression, and of course all those wars, suicide bombings and religious persecutions."

And any progress — not just scientific progress — is easier when we're not yoked to religious dogma. Of course, using reason and evidence won't magically make us all agree, but how much clearer our spectacles would be without the fog of superstition!"

Science and religion aren't friends
And one more...
The origins of religion : evolved adaptation or by-product?