what is the purpose of repentance?
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Even critics of the historical evidence left behind, like Jeffery Jay Lowder (cofounder and past President of Internet Infidels) agree that there was an historical Jesus. His existence wasn't doubted until a few decades ago, along with such things we often take for granted, like our own existence.SnakeLord said:
Hapsburg said:
Ah, yes, the "If God were good (loving, benevolent), He wouldn't have made this earth as it is" argument.
"If God were good, earth would be heaven."
"Earth is not heaven."
"Therefore, God is not good but is indifferent, or there is no God, or God is malevolent."
You understand shit about biology, evolution and free will.
And you know who are hardened and who are not? Are you God? If not, by which of His words do you consider yourself among the hardened? Have you relentlessly oppressed his people, like Pharoah?water said:
Test it. As I've said before: if you believe God speaks, you have to believe He has spoken before. If you are wary of false prophets, you will weigh their words. The problem is not whether God speaks, but who has heard Him, and what (and who) we listen to. According to the Bible:
Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
We have to decide what guides us in "truth" - we can't be our own guides, because then we define truth ourselves, and will never discover anything we cannot understand yet. What are our criteria for testing people and who do we believe? Jesus gave people a guideline during his time:In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
God gives those who follow Him in this truth his Spirit, which has been and will become the only measure for truth. It isn't something we can deserve or attain for ourselves, but it is something we have to pay attention to.1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.
Unless they are accepted or forgiven.
I couldn't really care what Jeffery Jay thinks, it has no relevance to what I was getting at. The statement you made is simply daft.
It's like saying:
There is no evidence against Bananaman existing, so it's not "equally" possible.
It's just completely worthless and meaningless to anything. Like I said on my last post, it's just plain daft. From your post it would become apparent that you expect there to be ancient documents stating jesus, (or bananaman), as fictional characters otherwise they must be real. What Mr. Lowder thinks is irrelevant.
anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
Jenyar said:
Just "a few decades ago?"
A "Reverend" Robert Taylor in 1829 wrote a book doubting Jesus' existence. I think the name of it is The Diegesis.Christian/Muslim blasphemy laws wouldn't really encourage people to openly state their possible belief in a mythical Jesus.
Also, if some Gnostics believed Jesus was a phantom or that his story was an allegory, relatively early in Christian history, why did they do so if his existence was a bonafide fact? I'm not an expert on Gnosticism. I've read that some said he was a phantom, and I've also read that some Gnostics thought his story was an allegory, and that some of them thought the "orthodox" were the ones who literalized it into a flesh and blood resurrection.
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anonymous2: Just "a few decades ago?" A "Reverend" Robert Taylor in 1829 wrote a book doubting Jesus' existence. I think the name of it is Diegesis.
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M*W: I did a search and found a thorough bibliography of books written in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries by authors who doubted Jesus' existence.
http://www.christianorigins.com/case/index.html
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anonymous2: Christian/Muslim blasphemy laws wouldn't really encourage people to openly state their possible belief in a mythical Jesus.
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M*W: I have mentioned several times that I still believe in the historic Jesus, but after reading these arguments, I am more convinced that Jesus didn't exist. Of course, that would also mean that Mary Magdalen didn't exist, but I have now reasoned that same conclusion, and I am ready to concede that my beliefs were errant.
Jesus, like the many dying demigod saviors before him, were simply reborn in many cultures as yet another mythical image of the sun god, Father-creator of the universe. And Mary Magdalen, reminiscent of the ancient Maiden, Mother and Crone, whose womb (the Garden of Eden) gave birth to, nurtured, and gave wisdom to all creation.
Then who were the 12 apostles who claimed to know Jesus? They were none other than the signs of the zodiac -- the constellations in the heavens. If the Father is really the Sun, then the Son is the Morningstar.
The living breathing messiah crucified to redeem the world was just a figment of Paul's imagination... that is, if Paul existed.
Jesus was a fictitious human representation of the "light" shown on earth by the sun. What this means is that all religions worshipping a deity have been fabricated since ancient times. Imagine no pagan deities, no Abraham, Sarah, Ishmael or Isaac, no Egyptian Aten-Ras, no Moses, no Ten Commandments, no Ark of the Covenant, no real dietary laws, no virgin births, no genealogies of Jesus, no crucifixion, no resurrection, no ascension, no trinity, no forgiveness, and no salvation. If you tell a lie enough times, you'll begin to believe its true.
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anonymous2: Also, if some Gnostics believed Jesus was a phantom or that his story was an allegory, relatively early in Christian history, why did they do so if his existence was a bonafide fact? I'm not an expert on Gnosticism. I've read that some said he was a phantom, and I've also read that some Gnostics thought his story was an allegory, and that the "orthodox" were the ones who literalized it into a flesh and blood resurrection.
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M*W: This lie, perpetuated now for 2,000 years, is the ultimate truth for a fourth of the world's population. If it were the truth, the entire population of the world would submit to Christianity. The truth is humanity created many serviceable gods for whatever purposes we may have had. None of them exist. We are the best creation that we've got, and if we don't endeavor improve our lot, we will lose that, too. For those of you who are still waiting for heaven, start looking within or you won't find it. If you aren't questioning, you aren't looking within.
A "Reverend" Robert Taylor in 1829 wrote a book doubting Jesus' existence. I think the name of it is Diegesis.*************
M*W: I did a search and found a thorough bibliography of books written in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries by authors who doubted Jesus' existence.
http://www.christianorigins.com/case/index.html
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anonymous2: Christian/Muslim blasphemy laws wouldn't really encourage people to openly state their possible belief in a mythical Jesus.
*************
M*W: I have mentioned several times that I still believe in the historic Jesus, but after reading these arguments, I am more convinced that Jesus didn't exist. Of course, that would also mean that Mary Magdalen didn't exist, but I have now reasoned that same conclusion, and I am ready to concede that my beliefs were errant.
Jesus, like the many dying demigod saviors before him, were simply reborn in many cultures as yet another mythical image of the sun god, Father-creator of the universe. And Mary Magdalen, reminiscent of the ancient Maiden, Mother and Crone, whose womb (the Garden of Eden) gave birth to, nurtured, and gave wisdom to all creation.
Then who were the 12 apostles who claimed to know Jesus? They were none other than the signs of the zodiac -- the constellations in the heavens. If the Father is really the Sun, then the Son is the Morningstar.
The living breathing messiah crucified to redeem the world was just a figment of Paul's imagination... that is, if Paul existed.
Jesus was a fictitious human representation of the "light" shown on earth by the sun. What this means is that all religions worshipping a deity have been fabricated since ancient times. Imagine no pagan deities, no Abraham, Sarah, Ishmael or Isaac, no Egyptian Aten-Ras, no Moses, no Ten Commandments, no Ark of the Covenant, no real dietary laws, no virgin births, no genealogies of Jesus, no crucifixion, no resurrection, no ascension, no trinity, no forgiveness, and no salvation. If you tell a lie enough times, you'll begin to believe its true.
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anonymous2: Also, if some Gnostics believed Jesus was a phantom or that his story was an allegory, relatively early in Christian history, why did they do so if his existence was a bonafide fact? I'm not an expert on Gnosticism. I've read that some said he was a phantom, and I've also read that some Gnostics thought his story was an allegory, and that the "orthodox" were the ones who literalized it into a flesh and blood resurrection.
*************
M*W: This lie, perpetuated now for 2,000 years, is the ultimate truth for a fourth of the world's population. If it were the truth, the entire population of the world would submit to Christianity. The truth is humanity created many serviceable gods for whatever purposes we may have had. None of them exist. We are the best creation that we've got, and if we don't endeavor improve our lot, we will lose that, too. For those of you who are still waiting for heaven, start looking within or you won't find it. If you aren't questioning, you aren't looking within.
M*W: Then who were the 12 apostles who claimed to know Jesus? They were none other than the signs of the zodiac -- the constellations in the heavens. If the Father is really the Sun, then the Son is the Morningstar.
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Yorda: Truly possible. You know the story where Jesus gave food to '4000 men' and '12' baskets were left. I think it was 'spiritual food'. He talked to them, and the '4000 men' doesn't mean 4000 men. There were 12 baskets left, it means that we have to experience all the 12 signs of the zodiak... we have to go through them all. If you know what I mean...
But really, you should know that when Jesus says: 'I am the light of the world', he doesn't mean the sun in the sky, but the sun within us, the 'light'. Light doesn't always mean what we think, thousand doesn't mean 1000, eternal doesn't mean Eternal etc.
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M*W: The living breathing messiah crucified to redeem the world was just a figment of Paul's imagination... that is, if Paul existed.
*************
Yorda: I've always believed that Christ represents the 'self' within us, which we have crucified in matter, in space and time. I've seen "Christ" in other religions and cultures too... Horus in Egyptian religion is the same as Christin Christianity. It's the voice within us, which whispers the truth.
But even if Christ is a symbol I still think there was a man called Jesus who was what the Bible tells. Even if Paul never knew him etc... 'it doesn't matter.'
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M*W: The truth is humanity created many serviceable gods for whatever purposes we may have had. None of them exist.
*************
Yorda: Gods represent different forces and things in the universe, so in a sense, you could say they're real.
Even if Christianity (or anything) would be wrong, I think people should still believe in them, because they have to learn something, from their mistakes. We should try to help people, but we must still respect their free will, just like 'God' does.
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Yorda: Truly possible. You know the story where Jesus gave food to '4000 men' and '12' baskets were left. I think it was 'spiritual food'. He talked to them, and the '4000 men' doesn't mean 4000 men. There were 12 baskets left, it means that we have to experience all the 12 signs of the zodiak... we have to go through them all. If you know what I mean...
But really, you should know that when Jesus says: 'I am the light of the world', he doesn't mean the sun in the sky, but the sun within us, the 'light'. Light doesn't always mean what we think, thousand doesn't mean 1000, eternal doesn't mean Eternal etc.
*************
M*W: The living breathing messiah crucified to redeem the world was just a figment of Paul's imagination... that is, if Paul existed.
*************
Yorda: I've always believed that Christ represents the 'self' within us, which we have crucified in matter, in space and time. I've seen "Christ" in other religions and cultures too... Horus in Egyptian religion is the same as Christin Christianity. It's the voice within us, which whispers the truth.
But even if Christ is a symbol I still think there was a man called Jesus who was what the Bible tells. Even if Paul never knew him etc... 'it doesn't matter.'
*************
M*W: The truth is humanity created many serviceable gods for whatever purposes we may have had. None of them exist.
*************
Yorda: Gods represent different forces and things in the universe, so in a sense, you could say they're real.
Even if Christianity (or anything) would be wrong, I think people should still believe in them, because they have to learn something, from their mistakes. We should try to help people, but we must still respect their free will, just like 'God' does.
did any one notice the the similarities between jacobs 12 sons and the signs of the zodiac. the 12 sons where also the fathers of the 12 tribes of israel.
judah .......... leo ............east....lion
issachar .......cancer
zebulun.........capricorn
reuben..........aquarius......south...man
simeon..........pisces
gad..............aries
ephraim.........taurus........west..bull
manasseh......gemini
benjamin.......saggitarius
dan..............scorpio.......north..eagle
asher............libra
naphtali.........virgo
there is also a way of attribbuting the four gospels to the quarters but i dont remeber how nor how the disciples fit into this scheme correctly. there are 12 gates and 12 stones in the book of revelation which also fit the tribes in the order they are presented in revelation.
judah .......... leo ............east....lion
issachar .......cancer
zebulun.........capricorn
reuben..........aquarius......south...man
simeon..........pisces
gad..............aries
ephraim.........taurus........west..bull
manasseh......gemini
benjamin.......saggitarius
dan..............scorpio.......north..eagle
asher............libra
naphtali.........virgo
there is also a way of attribbuting the four gospels to the quarters but i dont remeber how nor how the disciples fit into this scheme correctly. there are 12 gates and 12 stones in the book of revelation which also fit the tribes in the order they are presented in revelation.
The four elements are fire, air, water, earth. In the Zodiak, these elements become: Lion, Aquarius, Scorpion-Eagle, Taurus. In that order.
Ezekiel explains in his vision, in the first chapter, that God looks like the Zodiak. This is a 'funny' chapter.
Ezekiel explains in his vision, in the first chapter, that God looks like the Zodiak. This is a 'funny' chapter.
Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man (Aquarius), and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. Such were their faces.
Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went.
As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went.
Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekiel;&version=31;
The four faces of God, the signs of the Zodiak, always point towards Earth, 'they do not turn'. God's faces are visible in the 4 winds.Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went.
As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went.
Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekiel;&version=31;
