What is the case against Evolution?

I must admit that I can't see the difference between your second and third case.
Sorry, I should have elaborated.

Theistic evolution takes into account the idea of souls, and doesn't cause a person to have to choose between the Bible and science. The third category is someone who is spiritual, perhaps religious, who doesn't believe in creationism, doesn't really follow any particular ancient/holy text, yet believes in ID. Fine line maybe but the difference is that the former category is made up of theists who reconcile their theology with science. In other words, a believer doesn't need to be a theist.

But certainly the orthodox Christian view of this would be something along those lines. I have come across a number of priests, for instance, who put forward the view that God created the universe and the principles by which it functions and that the evolution of both the cosmos and everything in it, including life and humanity, is a result of that, without the need to invoke supernatural tinkering (i.e. a temporary overturning of those natural principles).

Some go so far as to suggest that God "upholds" the order in nature, whatever is meant by that. I think the point of that is to allow them to say that God is active in his creation, rather than just someone who set the machine up, started it and then sat back to eat popcorn while it all happened.

Yea, I've heard those concepts brought up, as well. Thing is, when you believe in God, you believe that he is the creator, and that humankind is discovering his creation. For example, my belief is that God created gravity but humankind discovered the science behind it, and gave it a name. Same with all other scientific theories. When I identified as an atheist a few years back, I didn't believe any of that - rather, that the universe just ''is,'' and that science is the revealing of the mysteries of the universe.

The difference between my beliefs as an atheist, and my beliefs as a believer now is that I believe that the mystery is God.
 
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You wrote 'only 3 particles', NOT '3 families of particles'. Which categorization would still be wrong and/or inadequate. Either way it's irrelevant to the topic. And that YT vid on micrtubules, which seems partly valid and partly new age guff, makes a joke of your 'just 2 components'. Again, pointless arguing with you on such matters.
Microtubule_structure.png


Yes it is pointless to argue with truth.
 
Or at least argued by one set of attorneys at one particular court trial. The courtroom rhetoric may or may not have convinced a jury composed of laymen, but I prefer not to look to trials and court decisions for definitive answers to scientific and philosophical questions.
No, this was posited by expert witnesses, such as
NCSE suggested the experts for the plaintiffs, whom the legal team discussed. The lawyers chose Kenneth Miller (biology), Robert Pennock (philosophy of science), Jack Haught (theology), Brian Alters (education), Barbara Forrest (history of ID), and Kevin Padian (paleontology). Jeffrey Shallit (mathematics and probability) was added later as a rebuttal expert. Alters and Forrest, of course, are on the NCSE board of directors, and Kevin Padian is president of the board.
And a host of expert witnesses such as Lee Smolin.
The ID expert list originally consisted of the A-team: Michael Behe (biochemistry), Scott Minnich (microbiology), William Dembski (philosophy and mathematics), John Angus Campbell (rhetoric of science), Warren Nord (religion in education), Dick Carpenter (education), with Stephen Meyer (philosophy of science) and Steve Fuller (philosophy of science) added as rebuttal experts. This list included five Discovery Institute fellows and most of the "heavy hitters" in the ID movement.
And just a taste of the intellectual honesty of the ID team;
Addressing Max Pell, a recent graduate of Dover Area High School who noted during the public comment period that teaching creationism would violate the separation of church and state, Buckingham asked, "Have you ever heard of brainwashing?" and declared, "If students are taught only evolution, it stops becoming theory and becomes fact." Buckingham said that the separation of church and state was "a myth." Apparently to emphasize the point, Buckingham claimed, "This country wasn't founded on Muslim beliefs or evolution," adding "This country was founded on Christianity, and our students should be taught as such."
https://ncse.com/library-resource/design-trial
 
tubulin molecules do not fall from the sky. And they are not random chemicals. They need an extremely sophisticated complex machinery to produce them and to regulate their production.
 
tubulin molecules do not fall from the sky. And they are not random chemicals. They need an extremely sophisticated complex machinery to produce them and to regulate their production.
They self-assemble.
A microtubule can grow as long as 50 micrometres and are highly dynamic. ... They are formed by the polymerization of a dimer of two globular proteins, alpha and beta tubulin into protofilaments that can then associate laterally to form a hollow tube, the microtubule.
Nucleation.
Nucleation is the event that initiates the formation of microtubules from the tubulin dimer. Microtubules are typically nucleated and organized by organelles called microtubule-organizing centres (MTOCs). Contained within the MTOC is another type of tubulin, γ-tubulin, which is distinct from the α- and β-subunits of the microtubules themselves. The γ-tubulin combines with several other associated proteins to form a lock washer-like structure known as the "γ-tubulin ring complex" (γ-TuRC). This complex acts as a template for α/β-tubulin dimers to begin polymerization; it acts as a cap of the (−) end while microtubule growth continues away from the MTOC in the (+) direction.
Centrosome,
The centrosome is the primary MTOC of most cell types. However, microtubules can be nucleated from other sites as well. For example, cilia and flagella have MTOCs at their base termed basal bodies. In addition, work from the Kaverina group at Vanderbilt, as well as others, suggests that the Golgi apparatus can serve as an important platform for the nucleation of microtubules.
Because nucleation from the centrosome is inherently symmetrical, Golgi-associated microtubule nucleation may allow the cell to establish asymmetry in the microtubule network.
In recent studies, the Vale group at UCSF identified the protein complex augmin as a critical factor for centrosome-dependent, spindle-based microtubule generation. It that has been shown to interact with γ-TuRC and increase microtubule density around the mitotic spindle origin
Microtubule - Wikipedia
Abstract,
Centrioles/basal bodies (CBBs) are microtubule-based cylindrical organelles that nucleate the formation of centrosomes, cilia, and flagella. CBBs, cilia, and flagella are ancestral structures; they are present in all major eukaryotic groups. Despite the conservation of their core structure, there is variability in their architecture, function, and biogenesis. Recent genomic and functional studies have provided insight into the evolution of the structure and function of these organelles.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3144413/

Note: All Eukaryotic and some propkaryotic organism have (had) microtubules in common.

It is a common denominator in all living things. Does that tell you something?
 
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Evolution states that a being must survive to reproduction age in order to pass on the genes that helped them to survive to that age...

Anything that negates this disproves evolution. A donkey? Worker ants? An infertile human being? :)
 
Evolution states that a being must survive to reproduction age in order to pass on the genes that helped them to survive to that age...

Anything that negates this disproves evolution. A donkey? Worker ants? An infertile human being? :)
I disagree. IMO, you are looking at this from a narrow perspective.

Not all members of a family need to reproduce. Hive species are usually divided into specific castes, some which are soldiers, workers, gardeners, herders, all sterile but responsible for the hive's health and safety.

In an ant hive or bee hive, only the queen can lay eggs. Interestingly it is the sterile worker bees which decide what egg is marked for royalty and is fed Royal Jelly which changes an ordinary bee larva into a queen larva. After the mating swarm where the queen mates once and is fertile for the rest of her life, the drones are kicked out of the hive and left to die as their role in procreation has finished.

A remarkable genetic tour deforce, somewhat similar to the extraordinary life cycle of butterflies. Sterile caterpillar which can only eat, and metamorphosis into a butterfly which cannot eat but can reproduce. This shows the flexibility of evolved reproduction systems and processes in individual and common survival techniques.

Apparently mathematical evolutionary probability has been exponentially kind to genetic expression and almost any living thing you can imagine does in fact exist. The potential for variety seems almost infinite.

Hellstrom remarked that insects are the oldest communal and individually very evolved sophisticated species. They were here first and when man fades into extinction, the insect will rise triumphant as the only structured survivor where all other life fails.

Just think, the insect has survived 5 major extinction events where everything else, including the mightiest animals that ever lived, died and disappeared.

The enormous variety and variations on reproductive and survival abilities argues against ID, which by definition is a very structured artificial system. Evolution is nature playing jazz, (variations on a theme).

Did God imagine a wolf-spider and said; "there you go, I gave you eight eyes just for the fun of it". "Now I'll create a few more million IDs for all the other living things so that everybody has a shot at survival which I cannot do anything about, except for the "immortal jellyfish" and "extremophiles" and "tardigrades". "Too bad I can't make them all smart and immortal at the same time, like me".

Sighs: "So much work to do and so little time" (6 days)........:?........5 times now I had to start all over.

In contrast, natural evolution depends on large spatial surfaces and long time spans, of which there is abundance in the universe.
 
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I'm personally inclined to consider it one of "ID's" best arguments
Great - competition against evolution

Since you consider

best argument for "ID" is probably Behe's Irreducible Complexity argument:

you must have some idea how any of the organs claimed to be Irreducible Complex actually came into existence

Are you able to explain? If not explain yourself any links to suitibly papers?

Cheers

:)
 
No the argument was given in expert testimony by Ken Miller.

To quote from the 2005 Kitzmiller judgement, " First, with regard to the bacterial flagellum, Dr. Miller pointed to peer- reviewed studies that identified a possible precursor to the bacterial flagellum, a subsystem that was fully functional, namely the Type-III Secretory System. (2:8- 20 (Miller); P-854.23-854.32)."

The present day Wiki article on the subject has this to say:
" At least 10 protein components of the bacterial flagellum share homologous proteins with the type three secretion system (TTSS),[32] hence one likely evolved from the other. Because the TTSS has a similar number of components as a flagellar apparatus (about 25 proteins), which one evolved first is difficult to determine. However, the flagellar system appears to involve more proteins overall, including various regulators and chaperones, hence it has been argued that flagella evolved from a TTSS. However, it has also been suggested[33] that the flagellum may have evolved first or the two structures evolved in parallel. Early single-cell organisms' need for motility(mobility) support that the more mobile flagella would be selected by evolution first,[33] but the TTSS evolving from the flagellum can be seen as 'reductive evolution', and receives no topological support from the phylogenetic trees.[34] The hypothesis that the two structures evolved separately from a common ancestor accounts for the protein similarities between the two structures, as well as their functional diversity.[35]

Main articles: Intelligent design and Irreducible complexity
Some authors have argued that flagella cannot have evolved, assuming that they can only function properly when all proteins are in place In other words, the flagellar apparatus is "irreducibly complex".[36] However, many proteins can be deleted or mutated and the flagellum still works, though sometimes at reduced efficiency.[37] In addition, the composition of flagella is surprisingly diverse across bacteria, with many proteins only found in some species, but not others.[38] Hence, the flagellar apparatus is clearly very flexible in evolutionary terms and perfectly able to lose or gain protein components. For instance, a number of mutations have been found that increase the motility of E. coli.[39] Additional evidence for the evolution of bacterial flagella includes the existence of vestigial flagella, intermediate forms of flagella and patterns of similarities among flagellar protein sequences, including the observation that almost all of the core flagellar proteins have known homologies with non-flagellar proteins.[32] Furthermore, several processes have been identified as playing important roles in flagellar evolution, including self-assembly of simple repeating subunits, gene duplication with subsequent divergence, recruitment of elements from other systems (‘molecular bricolage’) and recombination.[40]"

As to your other comments, yes there is a lot of work to do, no doubt of it. Where the "snarky" comments come in, in my view understandably, is that the argument advanced by "irreducible complexity" is actually not that it is can be shown to be "irreducible", but merely that it has not, to date, been reduced. This is equivalent to pointing out that "this is a difficult problem", rather than "we have proved this problem has no natural solution".
Miller's basic argument is 'given the commonality of structure between TTSS and flagellum, naturally one came from the other'. I note his expert testimony offered no details as to evolutionary advantage of either arising from scratch via numerous chance mutations. And similarly what evolutionary advantage the numerous intermediates between either could have driven the conversion process on to completion. The devil is in such always missing details. They never admit to be actually proposing mysterious teleology at work.

Just stop and think it through. For a flagellum to come from a Type III secretory apparatus, at some point the latter must block off from being able to secrete. But it's still nowhere near able to function as a useful motor i.e flagellum. No problem if you subscribe to a mysterious teleological process driving it on I suppose.

And on top of my issue down in Site Feedback, another mystery. No email alert for this thread since my p3 #56. Interesting.
 
They self-assemble.
To start with:
tubulin molecules are complex proteins. They need to be translated, thus for sure they need promoters, enhancers, helicases, RNA polymerases, a DNA template, t-RNA molecules to carry the messages in the triplets, the various specific side groups to bind to the right organelles, the specific amino-acid every time, start and stop anticodons, the existence of ribosomes, post-translational modifications, etc, to name a few)
 
I have heard this rebuttal before, but he says it much nicer than you guys do. :p
Agreed. I saw Carl Sagan as probably the greatest educator of our time. If I was a "believer" in the occult, supernatural or paranormal, I would certainly be much more inclined to listen to the dulcet, logical and reasonable tones of Sagan, then perhaps the more abrasive approach of Richard Dawson for example.
 
Sorry, I should have elaborated.

Theistic evolution takes into account the idea of souls, and doesn't cause a person to have to choose between the Bible and science. The third category is someone who is spiritual, perhaps religious, who doesn't believe in creationism, doesn't really follow any particular ancient/holy text, yet believes in ID. Fine line maybe but the difference is that the former category is made up of theists who reconcile their theology with science. In other words, a believer doesn't need to be a theist.



Yea, I've heard those concepts brought up, as well. Thing is, when you believe in God, you believe that he is the creator, and that humankind is discovering his creation. For example, my belief is that God created gravity but humankind discovered the science behind it, and gave it a name. Same with all other scientific theories. When I identified as an atheist a few years back, I didn't believe any of that - rather, that the universe just ''is,'' and that science is the revealing of the mysteries of the universe.

The difference between my beliefs as an atheist, and my beliefs as a believer now is that I believe that the mystery is God.
The God of the gaps in other words? :)
 
Just stop and think it through. For a flagellum to come from a Type III secretory apparatus, at some point the latter must block off from being able to secrete.
In some bacteria the flagella becomes a poison secreting stinger.
But it's still nowhere near able to function as a useful motor i.e flagellum. No problem if you subscribe to a mysterious teleological process driving it on I suppose.
And why should that be? If there is no survival advantage in having a flagella what is god trying to create? A useless but irreducibly complex appendage? This is becoming completely unhinged.
Unlike eukaryotic flagella, the bacterial flagellum has no internal fibrils and does not flex. Instead, the basal body acts as a rotary molecular motor, enabling the flagellumto rotate and propel the bacterium through the surrounding fluid. In fact, the flagellar motor rotates very rapidly.
Prokaryotic Cell Structure: Flagella
Can you see how ridiculous this entire exercise is? ID proposes that god created a useless but irreducibly complex appendage to most all single celled organisms, whereas science has clearly shown the adaptive evolution from a surface secretory organella into a functional molecular (chemical) motor?

So the flagella does have a survival advantage in providing the ability for movement. And if it does have an survival advantage, then evolution and natural selection are very much in the picture. Can't have have it both ways.

So there is no ID argument against the evolutionary process. Now we should examine the proposal of an Intelligent Designer fashioning an irreducibly complex flagellum including motor from .....?

What? Any raw materials available or was the flagellum created outside the body and pasted on the skin? Kinda like a copy/paste function for each flagellum on earth.

Hey, God took one of Adam's ribs and fashioned an entire human from a bone. Neat trick. No irreducible complexity there.......:rolleyes:
 
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tubulin molecules do not fall from the sky
Aren't you saying they do? God made them in the sky and made them fall on single celled bacteria where they penetrated the cell wall and set up an entire communications network.

Or did God do all that for every bacteria? I say they form naturally much like every daisy forms a fibonacci petal sequence. It's in the DNA growth instruction. The mathematics of the varied natural (universal) growth patterns, having emerged during 14 billion years of exponential evolutionary mathematical physical interaction and complexity of pattern.

Science does suggest a little more sane evolutionary progression from available raw materials (bio-chemical molecules) into functional patterns.

If the idea is to present an abstract motivated architect designer of the universe, I can present an abstract non-motivated but mathematically functional architectural model, with the added knowledge of being accountable without prejudice by purely logical deduction, not love or hate.
 
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To start with:
tubulin molecules are complex proteins. They need to be translated, thus for sure they need promoters, enhancers, helicases, RNA polymerases, a DNA template, t-RNA molecules to carry the messages in the triplets, the various specific side groups to bind to the right organelles, the specific amino-acid every time, start and stop anticodons, the existence of ribosomes, post-translational modifications, etc, to name a few)
Yes, and the entire system is already in place for the assembly and division of all the other stuff inside a living organism.

What you seemed to have missed is the ability of microtubules to function as computers and the ability to send and receive information from everything in the cell itself. It is the processor of the mitosis stage in all cells. Which means an exact copy of everything in the cell. Microtubules are fundamental to cell construction and responsible for all the patterns found in biology.
cytoskeleton,
Interestingly enough, the same is true for a cell. We often think about cells as soft, unstructured blobs. But in reality, they are highly structured in much the same way as our own bodies. They have a network of filaments known as the cytoskeleton (literally, “cell skeleton”), which not only supports the plasma membrane and gives the cell an overall shape, but also aids in the correct positioning of organelles, provides tracks for the transport of vesicles, and (in many cell types) allows the cell to move.
In eukaryotes, there are three types of protein fibers in the cytoskeleton: microfilaments, intermediate filaments, and microtubules. Here, we'll examine each type of filament, as well as some specialized structures related to the cytoskeleton.
https://www.khanacademy.org/science...-a-cell/tour-of-organelles/a/the-cytoskeleton

Do check out the last link. It's good stuff.
 
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In some bacteria the flagella becomes a poison secreting stinger. And why should that be? If there is no survival advantage in having a flagella what is god trying to create? A useless but irreducibly complex appendage? This is becoming completely unhinged.
Prokaryotic Cell Structure: Flagella
Can you see how ridiculous this entire exercise is? ID proposes that god created a useless but irreducibly complex appendage to most all single celled organisms, whereas science has clearly shown the adaptive evolution from a surface secretory organella into a functional molecular (chemical) motor?

So the flagella does have a survival advantage in providing the ability for movement. And if it does have an survival advantage, then evolution and natural selection are very much in the picture. Can't have have it both ways.

So there is no ID argument against the evolutionary process. Now we should examine the proposal of an Intelligent Designer fashioning an irreducibly complex flagellum including motor from .....?

What? Any raw materials available or was the flagellum created outside the body and pasted on the skin? Kinda like a copy/paste function for each flagellum on earth.

Hey, God took one of Adam's ribs and fashioned an entire human from a bone. Neat trick. No irreducible complexity there.......:rolleyes:
I'll be brief. Agreed someone is being unhinged. Go back and check the logic of your statements there.

And - still no email alerts coming through for yours truly. Charming.
 
wegs:

Thing is, when you believe in God, you believe that he is the creator, and that humankind is discovering his creation. For example, my belief is that God created gravity but humankind discovered the science behind it, and gave it a name. Same with all other scientific theories. When I identified as an atheist a few years back, I didn't believe any of that - rather, that the universe just ''is,'' and that science is the revealing of the mysteries of the universe.

The difference between my beliefs as an atheist, and my beliefs as a believer now is that I believe that the mystery is God.
It sounds like you believe in God for other reasons than the mysteries of the universe, and you're just giving God something else to do by saying he created gravity and all those other things.

What I would ask is along the lines of: how do you know that God created gravity? I mean, you have somehow arrived at this belief that God created gravity, but based on what? Speaking for myself, I would need to see some positive evidence that points towards a god creating gravity before I accepted that God created gravity, and the same applies to any other aspect of God's supposed Creation.

Merely perceiving a gap in our knowledge does not justify inserting a god to fill it, in my opinion. Suppose we don't know where gravity came from. Okay, fine. So, maybe gravity came about due to some as-yet-undiscovered natural process, or maybe it came about because of a god. Until there's evidence one way or the other, why should we say the god did it, rather than the alternative? Shouldn't we just be content to say that, for now, we don't know where it came from, and we need to wait until more data comes in?

I understand that if you start from the notion that there's a God, without evidence, then it's easy to extend that belief into all kinds of gaps to "explain" mysteries, but I think that's just giving in to a false sense of confidence about your belief in God. God just becomes a magical place-filler to plug all the uncomfortable gaps in your knowledge.

I am interested in how you went from being an atheist a few years back to now believing in a god. What changed your mind? Specifically, what evidence convinced you that God exists, after all? Or is it more of a gut feeling, or something?
 
I'll be brief. Agreed someone is being unhinged. Go back and check the logic of your statements there.

And - still no email alerts coming through for yours truly. Charming.
Well do you have a case against Evolution or not? That's the question isn't it?

I have a mathematical argument in support of evolution and natural selection. Can you prove me false?
 
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