What is space ?

hansda said:
What do you mean by 'void' ?

Is it some region of space , where there is no force-field and no energy-field ?
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An are that appears to be empty, of stars and other observable objects. An area of the sky, far away where nothing seems to be observable. This is likely in the visible or near visible spectrum, not microwave... I don't have a link off hand.

Just a hole in what otherwise seems to be, something no matter where you look.

I don't think the idea of force fields in space has much support and when talking about energy, in terms of vacuum energy, the cosmological constant, dark energy and such, the term is mostly a place holder for something about space and the interaction of objects, we can observe.., that we have no clear explanation and/or definition for.

Energy at intergalactic scales is the same as saying some undescribed substance. It is not the same as the classical meaning of the word energy. Nor is it the same as saying matter or mass. Mathematically it makes sense in our models and theories, but we have no real macrocosmic or classical understanding of exactly what or why it is.
 
AlexG, et al,

The CMB is a very cumulative fog of thermal energy with a normal distribution (centered about 160 GHz with (what appears to be) one significant harmonic discovered about 283 GHz). It is almost, but not quite uniform throughout the known universe. However, there is a significant portion of the universe that cannot be detected from Earth. It is that part of the universe from which light has not had time to reach back yet. The CMB thermal black body temperature is approximately 2.725 K.

AlexG said:
The coldest naturally occuring temp is that of the CMB. The CMB permeates every cubic meter of space. This is the temperature of the universe.
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(REFERENCE for CONSIDERATION)

We don't know what the coolest temperature within the known universe is; but we have found places cooler than the CMB.

The Boomerang Nebula - the coolest place in the Universe? (European Space Agency site). (I'm not allowed to post a link; I don't post that often..)​

In 1995, using the 15-metre Swedish ESO Submillimetre Telescope in Chile, astronomers revealed that it is the coldest place in the Universe found so far. With a temperature of -272?C, it is only 1 degree warmer than absolute zero (the lowest limit for all temperatures). Even the -270?C background glow from the Big Bang is warmer than this nebula. It is the only object found so far that has a temperature lower than the background radiation.
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While it is the only object found, thus far, cooler than the CMR, it is huge (a Nebula). there could be millions of places that are just as cool, but to small to detect. I don't know if 1 degree Centgrade is low enough to achieve a macroscopic quantum phenomena. But it would be pretty damn close to a lowest level boson energy state.

JustMy Thought,
R

Clarification: By MQP I mean on the Condensate level. (Correction)
 
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RoccoR said:
hansda, et al,

No, I'm saying that (it is probably the case) all space-time has one or more force carriers active within it.


(THOUGHT)

The implication I see is that when a region of space is at absolute zero, there is no movement. All the moving parts of an atoms collapse upon themselves, attaining maximum density. All energy has been drained or evaporated away - creating a completely disordered state of the subatomic particles. The three forces (weak, strong, electromagnet) collapse completely and emerge, algebraically added to the gravity of the object.

(IMAGINATION)

Seyferts, quasars, and blazars -- pictured which huge jets of energy emerging from them --- may be, on a larger scale, a result of the energy being completely squeezed out of material as it is absorbed by a strong gravitational field, reaching its maximum density and a state absent energy (absolute zero). This could be the point at which all the force carriers, from the three forces, are channeled into the service of gravity.

Most Respectfully,
R
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Temperature is only affecting mass directly . Temperature is not affecting space directly .
 
OnlyMe said:
An are that appears to be empty, of stars and other observable objects. An area of the sky, far away where nothing seems to be observable. This is likely in the visible or near visible spectrum, not microwave... I don't have a link off hand.

Just a hole in what otherwise seems to be, something no matter where you look.

I don't think the idea of force fields in space has much support and when talking about energy, in terms of vacuum energy, the cosmological constant, dark energy and such, the term is mostly a place holder for something about space and the interaction of objects, we can observe.., that we have no clear explanation and/or definition for.

Energy at intergalactic scales is the same as saying some undescribed substance. It is not the same as the classical meaning of the word energy. Nor is it the same as saying matter or mass. Mathematically it makes sense in our models and theories, but we have no real macrocosmic or classical understanding of exactly what or why it is.
Click to expand...

So, there is no 'void of space' within our universe . 'Void of space' may be outside of our universe .
 
hansda said:
So, there is no 'void of space' within our universe . 'Void of space' may be outside of our universe .
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There is no void of space, but there does appear to be at least one large area of space that is void of matter.

Empty space cannot be truly empty for both GR and QM to be as successful as they are. And yet remove the matter and we have no clear description and/or understanding of what space is. What ever it is, it is not the empty box that it is often confused with. To be curved in an interaction with matter, it must have some intrinsic substance of its own. Be that some energy or something yet unknown.
 
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hansda, OnlyMe, et al, et al,

This is where, you and I have to disagree. Although the disagreement may be a result of a miscommunication.

hansda said:
So, there is no 'void of space' within our universe . 'Void of space' may be outside of our universe .
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(OPINION)

There is no real definition for space. Like pornography, we just know it when we see it.

Inflation is not instantaneous. The theoretical universe (composed of everything) is expanding into something (an unknown nothingness). That nothingness is part of the universe and is space for the know material universe to occupy in the expansion; just void of anything we can confirm, and difficult to theorize about. It is beyond science. It is the infinite +1; alway just out of our reach.

Inflation is not a solid ball. It is not filling the entire volume of the expanding physical (Big Bang Theory) universe ball with material as it continues symmetrically outward from the point of origin (POI). But the materia is disbursed roughly along the normal distribution in accordance with the inverse-square law.

Unless the POI for the Big Bang is still spewing material omni-directionally from the POI, then the entire quantity of the material composing the universe is outbound from the POI.

New cosmic map reveals colossal structures said:
Enormous cosmic voids and giant concentrations of matter have been observed in a new galaxy survey, one of the biggest completed so far. One of the voids is so large that it is difficult to explain where it came from.

Called the Six Degree Field Galaxy Survey (6dFGS), the project scanned 41% of the sky, measuring positions and distances for 110,000 galaxies within 2 billion light years of Earth.

No previous survey has covered as much of the sky at such a distance. The Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS), which is based in the northern hemisphere, has probed about twice as far but covers only 23% of the sky.

A team led by Heath Jones of the Anglo-Australian Observatory in Epping, Australia, announced the completion of the survey on Friday. The project used the 1.2-metre UK Schmidt Telescope in Australia and as a result looked only at parts of the sky visible from the southern hemisphere.
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What is void space (like a void bladder, it is empty)? It depends on the scientific evaluation.

Space - absent of any energy, fields, subatomic particals, or force carriers - disbursed by the Big Bang, might be considered a void.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
hansda, et al,

Here, we disagree again.

hansda said:
Temperature is only affecting mass directly . Temperature is not affecting space directly .
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(OPINION)

When temperatures begin to reach that of the BEC, then the collapse retracts the interlocking fundamental forces (Weak, Strong, Electromagnetic). The resulting mass creates an amplified gravitational field which pulls-in any other loose particles into the condensate.

I consider this a direct impact.

v/r
R
 
RoccoR said:
hansda, OnlyMe, et al, et al,

This is where, you and I have to disagree. Although the disagreement may be a result of a miscommunication.


(OPINION)

There is no real definition for space. Like pornography, we just know it when we see it.

Inflation is not instantaneous. The theoretical universe (composed of everything) is expanding into something (an unknown nothingness). That nothingness is part of the universe and is space for the know material universe to occupy in the expansion; just void of anything we can confirm, and difficult to theorize about. It is beyond science. It is the infinite +1; alway just out of our reach.

Inflation is not a solid ball. It is not filling the entire volume of the expanding physical (Big Bang Theory) universe ball with material as it continues symmetrically outward from the point of origin (POI). But the materia is disbursed roughly along the normal distribution in accordance with the inverse-square law.

Unless the POI for the Big Bang is still spewing material omni-directionally from the POI, then the entire quantity of the material composing the universe is outbound from the POI.

What is void space (like a void bladder, it is empty)? It depends on the scientific evaluation.

Space - absent of any energy, fields, subatomic particals, or force carriers - disbursed by the Big Bang, might be considered a void.

Most Respectfully,
R
Click to expand...

The void you quoted (without a link) I believe was what I was referring to as a "void" in space.

Your conclussion I don't believe is accurate. That survey was in the visible and perhaps infrared spectrum. They were looking for "objects" in space. I don't remember there being an associated void in the CMB.

The void mentioned is just an area that seems to contain no visible matter, and is too large to be easily explained. There is nothing in the short quote of yours or that I have read that suggests that it is empty of anything other than observable material objects.

I know it is hard to get a grasp on it, but that does not mean it is equivalent to an empty box. There are just no stars and galaxies there for us to "see".

That does not mean that gravitational fields do not extend into, through and/or beyond the void. It does not mean spacetime in the void is not curved, though it may be more flattened than elsewhere (pure speculation). It says nothing definite about the nature of space itself.
 
OnlyMe, AlexG, hansda, et al,

I did not say it was completely void of matter; but rather, matter that is in the nebula (described as gas) is colder than the CMB Radiation. Approaching absolute zero.

I could not post the link because of the Discussion Group Rules. I had not made a sufficient number of contributions.

OnlyMe said:
Your conclussion I don't believe is accurate. That survey was in the visible and perhaps infrared spectrum. They were looking for "objects" in space. I don't remember there being an associated void in the CMB.

The void mentioned is just an area that seems to contain no visible matter, and is too large to be easily explained. There is nothing in the short quote of yours or that I have read that suggests that it is empty of anything other than observable material objects.
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(COMMENT)

The Coldest Region of space yet detected is the Boomerang Nebula (AKA: Bow Tie Nebula and ESO 172-07), 5K light years away.

It's colder than the background temperature of the universe for the same reason that when you blow on your hand through a small hole in your lips it's very cold. ... ... ... the Boomerang Nebula (also known as ESO 172-07) is the coldest place in the entire known Universe. ... ... ... The general bow-tie shape of the Boomerang appears to have been created by a very fierce 500 000 kilometre-per-hour wind blowing ultracold gas away from the dying central star.
Click to expand...


I mention it in the context two ways:
  • In reference to the observation that: "The coldest naturally occuring temp is that of the CMB. The CMB permeates every cubic meter of space. This is the temperature of the universe." (06-09-12 09:40 PM AlexG)
  • That because it is approaching Absolute Zero, the BEC characteristics might be in play.

Since we do not have a true, universally accepted definition of "space;" when we say "void space;" the question becomes - void of exactly what?

If the space is occupied by a black body devoid of energy, is it void space since no lines of force pass through it?

Is the area surrounding a condensate, which has neither energy, lines of force or particles; an are for which the path of light bends around because of its density, actually considered space, void space, or something else?

I realize my questions are relatively simple --- but it would help me understand the topic much further if you could explain where the other forces of the universe go in such places in the universe?

Most Respectfully,
R
 
RoccoR said:
OnlyMe, AlexG, hansda, et al,

I did not say it was completely void of matter; but rather, matter that is in the nebula (described as gas) is colder than the CMB Radiation. Approaching absolute zero.

I could not post the link because of the Discussion Group Rules. I had not made a sufficient number of contributions.


(COMMENT)

The Coldest Region of space yet detected is the Boomerang Nebula (AKA: Bow Tie Nebula and ESO 172-07), 5K light years away.




I mention it in the context two ways:
  • In reference to the observation that: "The coldest naturally occuring temp is that of the CMB. The CMB permeates every cubic meter of space. This is the temperature of the universe." (06-09-12 09:40 PM AlexG)
  • That because it is approaching Absolute Zero, the BEC characteristics might be in play.

Since we do not have a true, universally accepted definition of "space;" when we say "void space;" the question becomes - void of exactly what?

If the space is occupied by a black body devoid of energy, is it void space since no lines of force pass through it?

Is the area surrounding a condensate, which has neither energy, lines of force or particles; an are for which the path of light bends around because of its density, actually considered space, void space, or something else?

I realize my questions are relatively simple --- but it would help me understand the topic much further if you could explain where the other forces of the universe go in such places in the universe?

Most Respectfully,
R
Click to expand...

Let us consider space as one continuum . Any discontinuity in this continuum can be considered as 'void of space' .
 
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