What is space made of?

OK...
but it sounds like you might be saying that you couldn't wave your hand through space to see if it was there :).

But forget that.

done

Are you saying that space cannot be empty because in order for space to be of any consequence it must contain something?

no

what I'm saying is that in order for space to exist in the first place there must be energy/matter present

now there might be packets in space where no energy/matter exists

but that is the end result of energy/matter dynamics of object(s)
 
OK, I can buy that; space, energy and matter are all connected. And to be practical, you can't have less than all of those three together and still have a universe.

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QW
 
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I went there and read that thread. Though though provoking, it seems that you point it out to us because you are serious about a universe without space. That means that what ID=thinking and I seemed to agree on was contrary to your premise.

The statement that "you need all three (space, energy and matter) to have a universe" was just being practical. We could go further and be logically correct, but not practical. Going there, it could be said that there is an order (sequence) to how those three characteristic come together to make a practical universe.

The seemly logical order to me would be that you first have space, but no energy and no matter. This logical but impractical universe would be meaningless in my view because it takes energy and matter to produce an entity that could find any meaning in any universe. So we can scratch a "space only" universe from the list of minimum practical universes.

If we take that impractical "space only" universe and add energy and matter, we then have the framework for a practice universe like the one we observe. To contemplate removing "space" from that practical universe is what you are suggesting isn't it? The result leaves a universe with energy and matter and no place to go ;). A pretty dull place; and not a practical universe IMHO.
 
I would like to know what space is made of? Anyone think they know the answere?


This is simple. Space is constructed of moving packets of energy. They're momentum dictates time. They're vibration dictates composition.

I think the Boze-Einstien Condensate illistrates how this packet of energy may behave on the quantum level at the very least amount of energy to remain existing. If heat and and thus movement are completely removed space and particles would cease to exist.
 
Saquist

Beautifully said. Indeed, spacetime is made of moving ''knots'' - these knots are created from the distortions and geometry of spacetime, and possess an infinite amount of momentum in a very defined position within spacetime, whilst having an infinite amount of positions when they have a very unique momentum.

Remove this momentum (or better said, the intrinsic property of movement) and then you have no particles, and this would remove space and time as well, according to relativity.
 
This is simple. Space is constructed of moving packets of energy. They're momentum dictates time. They're vibration dictates composition.
Granted, it is simple to say. It is not so simple to prove. You are talking about ideas, and some of the ideas are part of accepted theory.
I think the Boze-Einstien Condensate illistrates how this packet of energy may behave on the quantum level at the very least amount of energy to remain existing. If heat and and thus movement are completely removed space and particles would cease to exist.
When you talk about space ceasing to exist you are speaking from the Big Bang Theory and more specifically, the Theory of General Relativity. There is a problem though with saying that space would cease to exist. The problem is that neither BBT or GR actually say that. It is implied and that implication is carried forward beyond the theories and into the realm of speculation.

On the other hand, it is just as legitimate to speculate that space is infinite and has always existed.
 
Granted, it is simple to say. It is not so simple to prove. You are talking about ideas, and some of the ideas are part of accepted theory.
When you talk about space ceasing to exist you are speaking from the Big Bang Theory and more specifically, the Theory of General Relativity. There is a problem though with saying that space would cease to exist. The problem is that neither BBT or GR actually say that. It is implied and that implication is carried forward beyond the theories and into the realm of speculation.

On the other hand, it is just as legitimate to speculate that space is infinite and has always existed.

Actually friend, general relativity does say this. This theory makes space-time-mattee-energy interdependant. The following is by physicist Andre Linde

''The general theory of relativity brought with it a decisive change in this point of view [the 3D world]. Space-time and matter were found to be interdependent, and there was no longer any question which one of the two is more fundamental. Space-time was also found to have its own inherent degrees of freedom, associated with perturbations of the metric-gravitational waves.''
 
Turning a question back on me doesn't absolve you from providing evidence for your claim. That onus is still on you; however, I will answer your question regardless. Unification theories describe "outside" the universe as the bulk, calibi yao space, fileds, etc. Simply put, our universe is a blip of change in a never-ending system of change.


These are just ideas. There is no evidence for them. Show me what space is if not nothing?


You are going to have to explain yourself better.

Mythology has space at quantum size. It is now somewhere over 158 billion light years in diameter and expected to expand for maybe 100 billion years more. This is a crackpot idea if you believe space is anything more than nothing.

It would be energy already built in. Consequently, space isn't stretching... it is expanding. There is a world of difference between the two.

If something expands then there is a loss from it. Elastic gets thinner. Atmosphere gets less dense. Space expands a zillion, zillion times and remains the same. I don't think so. Built in energy would quickly be diluted endlessly like homeopathic medicine. Soon none would be detectable.


We don't know enough to make any such of assertions. All we can do is observe, model, make predictions, test, and revise the models.

There is no revising the model. It is just endless fudges added to the big bang idea to try and stop it literally falling apart. Singularities are nonsense and only exist on paper.

Are you joking? All particles have virtual counterparts that are teeming all around everywhere. Non-virtual particles even make use of virtual ones for communication (ex. electrons repelling each other with virtual photons).

The fields that particles spring from therefore have IMMENSE amounts of energy.

Virtual particles are made under lab conditions. There is zero evidence that they exist in space. It is an idea.

It could suggest that the universe will expand until no more energy is left to fuel the expansion (i.e. our unvierse reaches maximum entropy). It could also mean that there is enough energy to continue accelerating expansion... which could could lead to points of space being added so quick that not even the strong nuclear force could hold atomic nucleii together. Keep in mind the universe's expansion was decelrating towards half the age of the universe and then it just picked up and started accelerating. For all we know expansion could decelerate at some point.


But there is this DE BS magically being produced from dimension Z. we effectively live in a snapshot of the universe. If it is expanding, it is on such a time scale that we will never know it so there can be no ultimate proof that the redshift we see is down to expansion. It is a belief, based on one view of the evidence.


We can detect that galaxies are moving apart faster than their mass could otherwise travel. The only known way for that to happen is for more space to be added.

This is down to redshifts. If the idea is wrong, then the whole lot falls down since it is a house of dominoes. If the redshift we see is down to gravity, as in the whole universe is a sea of gravity, so any photon travelling through it a sufficient distance will be redshifted (indistinguishable from recessional redshift), then this doppler shift is just a measure of distance and not of speed moving away from us.


Where there mass density, there is curved spacetime, and there is gravity. Particle physics predicts that carrier is a graviton. M-theory predicts it being self contained force in looped strings. Nobody knows what it is.

The term "curved space" makes it sound like space is a conductor for mass and that it's effect is carried from a star to a nearby planet as though buckling a sheet of rubber. No gravity needed.

Whatever gravity is, it is not a particle. Particles do not travel at light speed. I don't think it's a wave either as in EMR since it can escape black holes (ie: gravity cannot stop gravity).
 
here is a thread (on a different forum) on exactly that:
http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=37206

The main idea there seemed to be particles behaving like amoebas. For them to divide into two equal particles, that will take energy. The bigger the universe grows, the less it's energy will grow. Start off from quantum size and before you reach virus size, the particles have run out of energy.
 
Most negative resavior (such as the Dirac Sea of virtual particles) - have an infinite amount of particles; take some of the energy away, and the hole is replaced by more energy. And space and time expand, more enrgy is released into the vacuum, and this matter and energy is what keeps space and time together.

This is pure physics i speak here.


The fact that we can create them under very set conditions on Earth does not mean that virtual particles exist in space. I dislike the term "infinite". I get the impression that right behind it comes some BS because there are no infinites. It is a mathematical idea.

Time is a measure of change. There is no actual time, as in Dr Who. Spacetime is a term used by mathematicians that somehow got carried over into the real world.
 
OK...
but it sounds like you might be saying that you couldn't wave your hand through space to see if it was there :).

But forget that. Are you saying that space cannot be empty because in order for space to be of any consequence it must contain something?

If you imagine "here" before the universe somehow happened, then there is literally nothing. It does not even occupy the space of a single electron. Then we have the universe at who knows how many billion light years across. In between all matter, photons, gravity, etc is still literally nothing but what is there now gives what was nothing "size".
 
The fact that we can create them under very set conditions on Earth does not mean that virtual particles exist in space. I dislike the term "infinite". I get the impression that right behind it comes some BS because there are no infinites. It is a mathematical idea.

Time is a measure of change. There is no actual time, as in Dr Who. Spacetime is a term used by mathematicians that somehow got carried over into the real world.

Well, theoretically-speaking, virtual particles have real effects in the world, even if we cannot see them. Relatively-speaking, from their point of view, they may have no real interactions until they 'pop' out of a false vacuum, but it would be going to far to say the exist not at all in space. More likely, a virtual spacetime is needed.
 
Actually friend, general relativity does say this. This theory makes space-time-matter-energy interdependant. The following is by physicist Andre Linde

''The general theory of relativity brought with it a decisive change in this point of view [the 3D world]. Space-time and matter were found to be interdependent, and there was no longer any question which one of the two is more fundamental. Space-time was also found to have its own inherent degrees of freedom, associated with perturbations of the metric-gravitational waves.''
If I may, quoting Linde is not the same as proving that the concept of spacetime is right.

Where he says, "Space and time were found ... " or "Space-time was also found ... ", the use of the word "found" seems to imply it has been proven. It hasn't been found or proven. What has been found is that the predictions of the theory have been found to be quite reliable, but the evidence also supports other models of the universe just as reliably. Once such model is that the Big Bang was preceded by a big crunch that occupied space and contained energy that pre-existed the instant called t = 0 in GR and BBT.
 
These are just ideas. There is no evidence for them. Show me what space is if not nothing?

They are ideas rooted in known physics (i.e. spawned from a well established base). Of course unification theories tend to be very theoretical and therefore difficult to test; however, the LHC is going to change some of that by testing predictions made by some of the theories... and what comes from that is evidence.

We also went through this "space is nothing" cycle already. Length, width, height, and time (which are all part of space) are NOT nothing. If you cannot or will not grasp this then there is nothing more I can do... it's your problem.

Mythology has space at quantum size. It is now somewhere over 158 billion light years in diameter and expected to expand for maybe 100 billion years more. This is a crackpot idea if you believe space is anything more than nothing.

That conclusion is crackpot in itself. It's not rooted in evidence but I suspect it's rooted in some kind of psychological phenomenon.

If something expands then there is a loss from it. Elastic gets thinner. Atmosphere gets less dense. Space expands a zillion, zillion times and remains the same. I don't think so. Built in energy would quickly be diluted endlessly like homeopathic medicine. Soon none would be detectable.

Ok, you're still not understanding the difference between expansion and stretching. I'll use an anology using a square sheet of elastic.

To stretch the elastic, pull on two opposing ends. To expand the elastic sew on a secondary piece of elastic.

See the difference? The latter is what's happening to space. More of it is being added to the whole. It's expanding.

There is no revising the model. It is just endless fudges added to the big bang idea to try and stop it literally falling apart. Singularities are nonsense and only exist on paper.

No revising the model? Apparently you arent aware of all the inflationary / string / loop / etc. models that have superceded the original "big bang" theory. I can't do the research for you or go to school for you... again it's your problem.

Singularities (as far as relativity is concerned) result in a point of infinite density on paper. While that's very likely not possible in reality, it's more likely a limitation of the theory. Relativity predicts the anatomy of a black hole as having an event horizon and a singularity. We can currently detect black holes in the cosmos; however, they hide their internals. It would seem reasonable that something like a singularity is on the inside... finite in density but still an accretion of maximally compressed matter nonetheless.

Virtual particles are made under lab conditions. There is zero evidence that they exist in space. It is an idea.

You're joking right? We can detect the net pressure of virtual particles in space.

But there is this DE BS magically being produced from dimension Z. we effectively live in a snapshot of the universe. If it is expanding, it is on such a time scale that we will never know it so there can be no ultimate proof that the redshift we see is down to expansion. It is a belief, based on one view of the evidence.

This is down to redshifts. If the idea is wrong, then the whole lot falls down since it is a house of dominoes. If the redshift we see is down to gravity, as in the whole universe is a sea of gravity, so any photon travelling through it a sufficient distance will be redshifted (indistinguishable from recessional redshift), then this doppler shift is just a measure of distance and not of speed moving away from us.

It's not just redshift. Matter requires infinite energy to move at the speed of light... which cannot occur in reality. Yet, we can observe galaxies moving away from each other up to 2 times the speed of light. The ONLY way that can happen is if space is being added between them. Redshift and other wave stretching phenomena are simply additional points of validation.

The term "curved space" makes it sound like space is a conductor for mass and that it's effect is carried from a star to a nearby planet as though buckling a sheet of rubber. No gravity needed.

That's a possible interpretation of curved space.

Whatever gravity is, it is not a particle. Particles do not travel at light speed. I don't think it's a wave either as in EMR since it can escape black holes (ie: gravity cannot stop gravity).

It's obviously not a particle because it's a force; however, the carrier of the force may be a virtual particle (presently dubbed a graviton). Much like the carrier of EM force is a virtual photon.
 
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We also went through this "space is nothing" cycle already. Length, width, height, and time (which are all part of space) are NOT nothing. If you cannot or will not grasp this then there is nothing I more can do... it's your problem.

actually I would replace time with movement , since it would be more accurate

since the essence of time is based on the movement of object(s) and interactions

no getting around that , no matter the angle of criticism
 
Granted, it is simple to say. It is not so simple to prove. You are talking about ideas, and some of the ideas are part of accepted theory.
When you talk about space ceasing to exist you are speaking from the Big Bang Theory and more specifically, the Theory of General Relativity. There is a problem though with saying that space would cease to exist. The problem is that neither BBT or GR actually say that. It is implied and that implication is carried forward beyond the theories and into the realm of speculation.

On the other hand, it is just as legitimate to speculate that space is infinite and has always existed.

There are several co-joined properties in the universe.

Matter / Energy
Time / Space
Gravity / Inertia


These are realities not theories. When a object or particle is given energy it must move. In order for time to elapse a distance must be traveled. For mass to exert gravitational force it must resist the change in the universe's state of motion, accerlation.

Existence is litteraly defined as energy (in any form) in motion. If a particle ceases to move it will not exist. Everything in the universe is in motion. The theory of General Relativity couldn't have gotten it more right. Even down to the quantum level the theory of strings works because it suggest a relative vibrational momentum to directional momentum. This is how I suppose why String Theory supposes 7 additional dimensions because of the ineraction of relative motions on beyond the quantum level.


Saquist

Beautifully said. Indeed, spacetime is made of moving ''knots'' - these knots are created from the distortions and geometry of spacetime, and possess an infinite amount of momentum in a very defined position within spacetime, whilst having an infinite amount of positions when they have a very unique momentum.

Remove this momentum (or better said, the intrinsic property of movement) and then you have no particles, and this would remove space and time as well, according to relativity.

I think you said it better.
 
actually I would replace time with movement , since it would be more accurate

since the essence of time is based on the movement of object(s) and interactions

no getting around that , no matter the angle of criticism

Time would be a separation of moments (or movements).
 
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