What is "Right" or "Wrong"?

Duendy, I can see that even trying to have a discussion with you is pointless. You do not seem rational in the least. Even through your typing you appear a raving lunatic. Southstar followed what I was saying best by writing that there is no "right" or "wrong" besides what is in the human mind. Each person perceives things differently. That is why this is in the religious forum. It brings about the question, how can your actions be judged as right or wrong when there can never be a pure consensus?
I will pick Christianity for the sake of an example. How can a person know what God thinks is right and wrong? Can everything that is right or wrong be written in a bible? What if a manuscript went missing that said "If you drink anything but water or wine you will go to hell because this is wrong." It could be possible that this "god" believes this is wrong but you have never been taught it. It is impossible for a god or human beings to judge others on their own values and views on what is right or wrong.
 
Ithopal says,

And ladyfriend (wife) buys her own flowers every day - because she loves them. I buy the big stuff.
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Why don't you buy her what she loves? I'm sure she would take it very well. The little things in life do count. Some of the best things in life are free, and can not be bought. :D
 
Woody,

You're odviously not a salesman. What is wrong with putting yourself in the other man's shoes? This communication skill is called "savvy." It works.

The golden rule is a secularized version of "Loving your neighbor as yourself". The golden rule assumes you are a decent person to start with, and it odviously does not apply to a sado-masochist.
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The problem is that it assumes that your values are the best and that you are free to impose them on others. This is not a good version of the Golden Rule. This rule has some 50 variations, here is short list http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/GoldnRul.htm

Note that most emphasize NOT doing something.

For a long time my signature here was -

Everyone should be free to do as they wish providing such actions do not restrict the freedom of others.

There are variations on the wording. The Wican Rede has essentially been listed in this thread already which gives a similar theme - An harm none do what thou will.

Do you see the imortant difference?
 
Cris,

The problem is that it assumes that your values are the best and that you are free to impose them on others.
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I haver never had a complaint from someone about me being "TOO NICE." -- Except when they were some cranky old grouch that nobody could please, that is to say that nobody was good enough for them.

I let people cut in front of me in traffic. If somebody wants to be first in line , I let them, and I smile and wish them well. Am I imposing my will, is this overbearing of me? Would you go into a fit if I was polite to you, and smiled? (of course not)

When someone wants to pass me in a car I slow down so they won't have to speed to get by, Do you know anyone else that does this? -- I don't. One time I talked with someone that I allowed to pass safely, he remembered me and my vehicle and he said thanks. I told him, I was just being reasonable, because if he wrecked, I would wreck too. Everybody else says, "By golly I'll show that bastard for wanting to pass me and they hit the accelerator!" I say go ahead and pass, then we will both live happily another day.

The golden rule works for me. How has your experience been different?
 
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itopal,

You don't pay attention well; nor or you an instructor either.
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What did I miss? You have 2 children -- great, you have been married 20 years - excellent. You don't buy a little knick Knack for the wife -- well don't ask me, ask her. :D

Reread what I posted to Cris,

Do you know anyone besides me that allows people to pass safely and legally on the highway instead of getting all self-centerred about it -- speeding up, scowling, posturing, etc. or just getting generally annoyed?
 
Ithopal,

What is wrong with being considerate of someone else and their differences? Is it something you just don't want to do? Being married, surely you must deal with differences. Selfishness doesn't make a marriage work, there has to be some give and take unless one of you is a slave.

Could you please (see I'm being considerate here **hint **hint) give me a specific example where it was a bad idea for someone to be considerate of you? That is what the golden rule is about.

It looks to me like you are being overly simplistic here with broad sweeping generalizations -- this "everyone's different" argument sounds like a red herring. Of course everyone's different. Wouldn't a considerate person consider those differences? The world is not a perfect place so if someone does make a well intentioned mistake, shouldn't the recipient be considerate enough to let them know in a kind way.

Do you prefer rudeness instead?

You let people pass - me too - so what.
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You are one of very very few. I might encounter one person in a couple of years that slows down and lets me pass. My wife has had the same experience. Most everyone speeds up while they are being passed, and I honestly think there are multiple reasons, most having to do with a lack of intelligence and a road rage red-neck mentality.
 
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Woody,

The issue isn’t about showing basic considerations and kindness it is about imposing ones values on others, i.e. the positively “DOING to OTHERS,” part. The golden rule you are quoting is used by Christians especially as a way to justify their evangelism. They believe, in their arrogance, that everyone needs to be saved and hence they must seek out those that do not believe and convert them. They believe this because at one time they were “lost in the wilderness and now they have found the lord”, etc. They were glad that someone converted them so now they must DO the same to OTHERS – i.e. exercise “their” Golden Rule.

But the issue goes much further when they attempt to help others by trying to change them to their value system; this promotes homophobia, various forms of censorship, and other lifestyle ideologies, e.g. so-called family-values.

This is a not a new observation and why there are so many versions of the golden rule that specifically are not intrusive or imposing. Live and let live is another simple version – i.e. let people do their own thing while you do yours – just don’t get in each others way.

But your kindness can also backfire – a story I heard many years ago – a driver in heavy traffic out of kindness allowed another driver to enter from an intersection. This made the new driver feel so good that at the next intersection he also allowed someone to join the traffic. This kindness was transferred to another 20 intersections. The original driver is now furious that 20+ more cars were delaying his progress because of his kindness – he decides not to do that again. 

The incidents and actions you are describing sound to me like simple civilized common courtesy that most people follow, at least that is my experience here where I live in Silicon Valley.

Cris
 
OK Cris,

I see you are from the US like me, and I can share an example you might relate to. Hold the golden rule as a thought and consider this:

I worked for a staid electric utility for many years. We had a group of very well paid consultants train our company of 18,000 employees to help us change the corporate culture, which really stunk. Everyone was looking after their own turf and the company was going down. The training was called Foundations Training. I think the consultants were from the west coast (not sure though).

The instructors said we as employees needed to look past our own personal needs and look at the needs of the company we worked for. Everyone should be considered a customer. We needed win-win solutions rather than I win and you lose solutions. Consider your turf competitor to be your customer.

After several days of training in all the nuances of "the customer comes first" philosophy, I had one of my classmates look over at me and say, "Wow, our company is paying these guys a fortune to teach us the golden rule!" I agreed with him, somebody plagiarized the golden rule to make a buck.

In the end the company culture did not change, the turf wars continued, and the company lost more than a billion dollars in one year. A lot of people were laid off including me, and the cuts have continued since I left. There was some dishonesty in the book-keeping, and the CEO resigned. This same company was involved in the California power market manipulation probe, and paid hundreds of millions in reparations to the California customers that were ripped off.

This thread started about ethics and I come right back to the subject. Our country, the USA, has a lot of greedy self-serving, overpaid executives, that are only looking out for themselves. They are paid far more than their counterparts in the rest of the world, and they decide their own pay and perks through their puppet boards of directors. It is not a free market system that determines their wages -- believe me. They want it ALL.

And I say, fine let them have it all. I will be happy to live in an RV and play my guitar. If they don't want me to have a job -- fine, I'll vote for whoever helps me pay the bills, and guess who will be paying the bills -- the wealthy since they have all the money. So they can just support all of us they don't want to employ, and I'll be glad to sit at home with my family while they leave theirs and work for money they don't need and didn't deserve to start with. :cool:
 
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Well no that is not a good rule. It promotes unsolicited actions that others might not appreciate. It goes to the problem of what is considerd good for one person may not be good for another.
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I forget which forum it was, but someone mentioned how the Golden Rule should be. Basically the same words but with "not" in it as if:

"Do not do unto others as you would have them not do unto you."

That way you don't do anything unwillingly to a person, even if you may feel it's a good act you're doing since as you say, what's good for one isn't good for another.

When it comes to morals, I'm a relativist, so there’s no real right or wrong. The only real ethical law I feel is the universal one is the Golden Rule, with that slight tweak as mentioned above (if I wrote the tweaked version correctly).

- N
 
Exciting to know, these many replies have popped up. Thanks guys for your consideration and appreciation.
 
Lord Phoenix,

You are welcome, chap. I hope it changes the world.
 
Lord Phoenix,
You are responsible for being the unqualified author of an act or event.

If you conduct did not hurt anybody, was stupid and silly, then it is moral, as a bottom line.
If your conduct benefitted someone your conduct is also moral on a higher level.
Geistkiesel
 
Diesel said:
Duendy, I can see that even trying to have a discussion with you is pointless. You do not seem rational in the least. Even through your typing you appear a raving lunatic.

d__hahahah

Southstar followed what I was saying best by writing that there is no "right" or "wrong" besides what is in the human mind.



d__maybe he's your mentor then kiddo



Each person perceives things differently. That is why this is in the religious forum. It brings about the question, how can your actions be judged mas right or wrong when there can never be a pure consensus?

d__i've tried to explain, but you are obviously too 'rational' for me

I will pick Christianity for the sake of an example. How can a person know what God thinks is right and wrong? Can everything that is right or wrong be written in a bible? What if a manuscript went missing that said "If you drink anything but water or wine you will go to hell because this is wrong." It could be possible that this "god" believes this is wrong but you have never been taught it. It is impossible for a god or human beings to judge others on their own values and views on what is right or wrong.
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and you think I am irrational?.....it's YOU who are wrong cutyface
 
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