Should it be considered a full human being or something else?
Yes this is related to abortion but please stay calm and no flaming.
Yes this is related to abortion but please stay calm and no flaming.
What is a Fetus?
- Thread starter ElectricFetus
- Start date
Some good quotes I remember...
That should tell you what my opinion is
And yes we can go anyway you want with this.
That should tell you what my opinion is
And yes we can go anyway you want with this.
The only way discrimination as a whole can ever possibly be eliminated on this planet is if we set the standard of what is a human being to coencide with what is the DNA profile of our species. Anyone with 46 chromosones, is producing new cells, and is genetically compatible with me is a living, viable human being.
This is one issue I think, where the criteria for what is human and what isn't shouldn't come in shades of grey or have to do with subjective values, and the reason for that is that it only invites the continuation of discrimination of ALL kinds. Who is truly wise enough to hold the power to decide who is human and who isn't?
This is one issue in particular I put my faith more in Biology more than I do human sociology. We are as a species screwed up enough as it is when it comes to respecting other people.
This is one issue I think, where the criteria for what is human and what isn't shouldn't come in shades of grey or have to do with subjective values, and the reason for that is that it only invites the continuation of discrimination of ALL kinds. Who is truly wise enough to hold the power to decide who is human and who isn't?
This is one issue in particular I put my faith more in Biology more than I do human sociology. We are as a species screwed up enough as it is when it comes to respecting other people.
There are people with more/less them 46 chromosomes . I fail to see the connection between racism and fetal rights. What about other sentient animals, what about AI and cyborgs, what about Biorobots? If we make a child not through sperm and egg does that count as human?
Biorobot: life forms who’s genomes are created synthetically and therefore are not even alive by some definitions of life. Usually Biorobots are design ahead of time on a computer then the genome is printed out off a DNA synthesizer and implanted in a void cell that had its genetic material removed.
You can watch the movie “Blade Runner” to grasp the concept.
. I fail to see the connection between racism and fetal rights. What about other sentient animals, what about AI and cyborgs, what about Biorobots? If we make a child not through sperm and egg does that count as human?Biorobot: life forms who’s genomes are created synthetically and therefore are not even alive by some definitions of life. Usually Biorobots are design ahead of time on a computer then the genome is printed out off a DNA synthesizer and implanted in a void cell that had its genetic material removed.
You can watch the movie “Blade Runner” to grasp the concept.
I don't get it?i really don't know when the boundaries of life are crossed, but i have a question.
Has any one every heard of or been to a funeral for a miscarige? if life begins at conception then shouldn't there be funerals for all those unborn babies that are miscarried. I understand that it happens rather often( some one told me up to 1/3 of all pregnancies).
Has any one every heard of or been to a funeral for a miscarige? if life begins at conception then shouldn't there be funerals for all those unborn babies that are miscarried. I understand that it happens rather often( some one told me up to 1/3 of all pregnancies).
Actually its 1/3 of all embryos and feti die off!
I have been to a funeral for a miscarriage... it was 3 trimester though.
I have been to a funeral for a miscarriage... it was 3 trimester though.
Last edited:
THe point I was comming to is that the decision that the unborn aren't human beings is based on subjective arguments. Biology has a specific blueprint for what is human and what isn't. You are human if you are based on the DNA of my species, and your cells divide. That makes you biologically alive, and a member of the human race.
Let's look at age. If one can make a case that the unborn should be aborted if the mother does not want to care for them, then I can make a case that the elderly should be euthenised if we don't want to take care of them. After all, your talking about eliminated wanted parasites for economic reasons, aren't you? Ohh, but I can't do that, they are ESTABLISHED human beings. Why? Why are they any more established, because they aren't depenent upon the mother for life? So what!? Lots of people in nursing homes are bed-ridden, need to be fed by someone else, and lots of time family doesn't come to see them anymore, some of them have no children and are wards of the state. Many are blind, deaf, mute, and or disabled in other ways too. Let's kill them all so we don't have to pay for them. I certanly don't want them around, they lived there time and should die since they are no longer useful. Lots of them don't smell too good either, and if you look close, some of them are rather unpleasant looking. Naww, the eldery aren't human beings. They used to be, but like any other percentage of a population, that can be revoked at any time by the subjective whims of a society. How does that sound to you? Heck, I once read about a nursing home patient in the Belgium who was pumped full of morphine by her doctor, and he stood there waiting for her to die. You get that in the land that resisted the Nazis?
Okay, so what else is there? It isn't a human because it isn't born yet? What kind of crap is that? If I rip a dead pig open and find the fetus in it, is the fetus a pig? How about a chicken egg? If I crack it open and find an unhatched chick, is it still a chick? If I find fish eggs growing in a pond, are the little things in the egg still a fish? This development thing doesn't seem right to me. You know, birth is a really arbitrary place to put the marker, isn't it? How about we kill a baby after it is born if the parents don't want it? Thats what the Greeks used to do... a father who didn't want his kid could take it out into the forrest and abandon it, and no one would say a word. Not nowadays... a woman abandons a child in a dumpster, and everyone is shocked and appauled. But if that same woman went to Planned Parenthood heck, the DAY before she would give birth and had an abortion instead, no one would say a word, would they? Nawww... it was her choice, and the personhood of that child was based on a mere 24 hours...or even 24 minutes, even though it was the same baby the day before it was born that it was the day it was born. She was going to abandon it anyhow, so where is the difference between her getting an abortion and her dumping it in a dumpster wrapped in the plastic grocery sacks she just got when she went to go get milk earlier? We in this country get so upset when infantcide happens, but we protect Abortion.
Actually, I hear there are people who want to allow infantcide to be allowed within a small period of weeks after the pregnancy. Why stop there? The brain doesn't stop developing untill we are into our 20's, so how about the idea that no one under 20 is a person yet, because they aren't developed enough to survive on their own yet? There you go... let's start killing teenagers too. They get unruly, they go berzerk, they join their little gangs and go bang bang bang at other peoples houses. No, I don't think I care for that. Let's just kill them off because they aren't adult enough yet to be human beings. Woah, it's the age thing again just like with the elderly. Not that it matters... we humans discriminate based on such petty and subjective traits all the time.
I think the reason Abortion is easier is because you don't have to face the victem. You kill an elderly woman in the nursing home, and you have to look at her before she dies. You dump a baby in the dumpster, and you have to pick up the little guy in your hands and move it to the dumpster. You try to kill joe on the street, and he just might pull something out of his pocket and come at you. Not with an Abortion. You lay the girl on the table, scrape out the insides of her uterus, put the tube in, and suck it out with a hoover vaccume. She doesn't have to see it, and with anesthetic she probably didn't feel it either... and she didn't do it with her own hands, so she didn't do it. Lots of Pro-Choice rhetoric talks about wether or not the child is real to the woman, wether it has value to her... and that is what I'm talking about. It is easy to do something like that as long as the victem doesn't get up and clobber you. The baby sure as heck can't.
Let's take a few statements one makes about fetuses and replace it with other human populations, shall we?
"The Fetus is a parasite."
"The Jew is a parasite."
"Babies are a sexually transmitted disease."
"Children are a sexually transmitted disease."
"I don't want this fetus."
"I don't want this neighbor."
"I should decide if I want this fetus or not."
"I should decide if I want this or not."
The logic is just stupid... you can yell at me about rape, but rape is a very tiny minority amoung abortions. If 1 in every 4 babies are being aborted then that must be because people are fucking around without bothering to take precautions. When Nathanson lead the feminists to make Abortion legal, they said that the few thousand illigal abortions done every year would then become legal. Yeah, sure that's really what happened. All they did was turn women into whores. Oh, but Nathanson is a guy, isn't he?
Yeah, you ever notice that? The two people who made Abortion a big issue for feminists were men. The judge who wrote the Supreme Court ruling for Roe vs. Wade was a guy. Most of the lawyers defending NOW and other organizations in these lawsuits are men. Coincidence? Naww, I don't think so. We men have the women boxed in now, don't we? In the Old Testament, if I knocked up a girl I had to marry her and take care of her and the baby. 100 years ago, if I knocked up a girl I would have to pay chlid support. Nowadays, she has an abortion... no fuss, no grief. I can sleep around to my hearts content without protection, and all I have to do is keep my mouth shut, not claim the baby as my own, and refuse a DNA test, and she is stuck with it. So what happens then? Lots of time nowadays males end up getting suckered by girls into claiming children that aren't theres. There are lots of time a guy is told it is his kid, and he agrees to pay child support. It turns out NOT to be his kid in the end, and the Judge orders him to STILL pay child support! Ohh, but that isn't the girls problem, or the problem of the guy who knocked her up in the first place is it? The lack of empathy is sickening, but we brought it on ourselves.
So now, our girls are sluts who don't have to take precautions anymore, men aren't always being held accountable for pregnancies, and some men are being held to support kids that aren't theirs. Sounds wonderful... and all we had to do to bring this about is decide that life doesn't begin when biology says it does - when cells are dividing, and the DNA is typical for our species.
Let's look at age. If one can make a case that the unborn should be aborted if the mother does not want to care for them, then I can make a case that the elderly should be euthenised if we don't want to take care of them. After all, your talking about eliminated wanted parasites for economic reasons, aren't you? Ohh, but I can't do that, they are ESTABLISHED human beings. Why? Why are they any more established, because they aren't depenent upon the mother for life? So what!? Lots of people in nursing homes are bed-ridden, need to be fed by someone else, and lots of time family doesn't come to see them anymore, some of them have no children and are wards of the state. Many are blind, deaf, mute, and or disabled in other ways too. Let's kill them all so we don't have to pay for them. I certanly don't want them around, they lived there time and should die since they are no longer useful. Lots of them don't smell too good either, and if you look close, some of them are rather unpleasant looking. Naww, the eldery aren't human beings. They used to be, but like any other percentage of a population, that can be revoked at any time by the subjective whims of a society. How does that sound to you? Heck, I once read about a nursing home patient in the Belgium who was pumped full of morphine by her doctor, and he stood there waiting for her to die. You get that in the land that resisted the Nazis?
Okay, so what else is there? It isn't a human because it isn't born yet? What kind of crap is that? If I rip a dead pig open and find the fetus in it, is the fetus a pig? How about a chicken egg? If I crack it open and find an unhatched chick, is it still a chick? If I find fish eggs growing in a pond, are the little things in the egg still a fish? This development thing doesn't seem right to me. You know, birth is a really arbitrary place to put the marker, isn't it? How about we kill a baby after it is born if the parents don't want it? Thats what the Greeks used to do... a father who didn't want his kid could take it out into the forrest and abandon it, and no one would say a word. Not nowadays... a woman abandons a child in a dumpster, and everyone is shocked and appauled. But if that same woman went to Planned Parenthood heck, the DAY before she would give birth and had an abortion instead, no one would say a word, would they? Nawww... it was her choice, and the personhood of that child was based on a mere 24 hours...or even 24 minutes, even though it was the same baby the day before it was born that it was the day it was born. She was going to abandon it anyhow, so where is the difference between her getting an abortion and her dumping it in a dumpster wrapped in the plastic grocery sacks she just got when she went to go get milk earlier? We in this country get so upset when infantcide happens, but we protect Abortion.
Actually, I hear there are people who want to allow infantcide to be allowed within a small period of weeks after the pregnancy. Why stop there? The brain doesn't stop developing untill we are into our 20's, so how about the idea that no one under 20 is a person yet, because they aren't developed enough to survive on their own yet? There you go... let's start killing teenagers too. They get unruly, they go berzerk, they join their little gangs and go bang bang bang at other peoples houses. No, I don't think I care for that. Let's just kill them off because they aren't adult enough yet to be human beings. Woah, it's the age thing again just like with the elderly. Not that it matters... we humans discriminate based on such petty and subjective traits all the time.
I think the reason Abortion is easier is because you don't have to face the victem. You kill an elderly woman in the nursing home, and you have to look at her before she dies. You dump a baby in the dumpster, and you have to pick up the little guy in your hands and move it to the dumpster. You try to kill joe on the street, and he just might pull something out of his pocket and come at you. Not with an Abortion. You lay the girl on the table, scrape out the insides of her uterus, put the tube in, and suck it out with a hoover vaccume. She doesn't have to see it, and with anesthetic she probably didn't feel it either... and she didn't do it with her own hands, so she didn't do it. Lots of Pro-Choice rhetoric talks about wether or not the child is real to the woman, wether it has value to her... and that is what I'm talking about. It is easy to do something like that as long as the victem doesn't get up and clobber you. The baby sure as heck can't.
Let's take a few statements one makes about fetuses and replace it with other human populations, shall we?
"The Fetus is a parasite."
"The Jew is a parasite."
"Babies are a sexually transmitted disease."
"Children are a sexually transmitted disease."
"I don't want this fetus."
"I don't want this neighbor."
"I should decide if I want this fetus or not."
"I should decide if I want this or not."
The logic is just stupid... you can yell at me about rape, but rape is a very tiny minority amoung abortions. If 1 in every 4 babies are being aborted then that must be because people are fucking around without bothering to take precautions. When Nathanson lead the feminists to make Abortion legal, they said that the few thousand illigal abortions done every year would then become legal. Yeah, sure that's really what happened. All they did was turn women into whores. Oh, but Nathanson is a guy, isn't he?
Yeah, you ever notice that? The two people who made Abortion a big issue for feminists were men. The judge who wrote the Supreme Court ruling for Roe vs. Wade was a guy. Most of the lawyers defending NOW and other organizations in these lawsuits are men. Coincidence? Naww, I don't think so. We men have the women boxed in now, don't we? In the Old Testament, if I knocked up a girl I had to marry her and take care of her and the baby. 100 years ago, if I knocked up a girl I would have to pay chlid support. Nowadays, she has an abortion... no fuss, no grief. I can sleep around to my hearts content without protection, and all I have to do is keep my mouth shut, not claim the baby as my own, and refuse a DNA test, and she is stuck with it. So what happens then? Lots of time nowadays males end up getting suckered by girls into claiming children that aren't theres. There are lots of time a guy is told it is his kid, and he agrees to pay child support. It turns out NOT to be his kid in the end, and the Judge orders him to STILL pay child support! Ohh, but that isn't the girls problem, or the problem of the guy who knocked her up in the first place is it? The lack of empathy is sickening, but we brought it on ourselves.
So now, our girls are sluts who don't have to take precautions anymore, men aren't always being held accountable for pregnancies, and some men are being held to support kids that aren't theirs. Sounds wonderful... and all we had to do to bring this about is decide that life doesn't begin when biology says it does - when cells are dividing, and the DNA is typical for our species.
The argument is easy to bolster with the sheer number of abortions. Accorting to Nathanson, there were around 10,000 illigal abortions in this country anually before Roe vs. Wade. Nowadays, the going rate is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 in every 4 pregnancies end in abortion. Just look at the numbers...
Surely you can't tell me that all those abortions can happen without the girl screwing around unprotected first, and I'm not just talking condoms here... there are plugs, spounges, condoms for BOTH genders, and even contraceptive injections.
Surely you can't tell me that all those abortions can happen without the girl screwing around unprotected first, and I'm not just talking condoms here... there are plugs, spounges, condoms for BOTH genders, and even contraceptive injections.
Not true: Chimpanzees have 99% the identical genome to humans. What about the theoretical Biorobotics: If we design people off a computer then their genome is artificial and they are only mimicking natural life forms… many have said that this would render them soulless and inhuman at the lest.
It depends on your definition of human: I was aiming more for what is insentient or not. A Embryo was never sentient at any degree… a baby, adult and elder are. A Embryo has no emotions… a baby, adult and elder does. A retarded or comatose still falls under this category because they are still somewhat sentient or were once.
There are laws against 3rd term abortions, even 2nd term.
People that are members of a society have rules to protect them from dieing by other’s hands. The reason for this is that if someone kills another person other members of that society are threatened as well. It is societies self-protection to prevent murder of social members. As for infanticide I think I covered that above.
I think the reason Abortion is easier is because you don't have to face the victem. You kill an elderly woman in the nursing home, and you have to look at her before she dies. You dump a baby in the dumpster, and you have to pick up the little guy in your hands and move it to the dumpster. You try to kill joe on the street, and he just might pull something out of his pocket and come at you. Not with an Abortion. You lay the girl on the table, scrape out the insides of her uterus, put the tube in, and suck it out with a hoover vaccume. She doesn't have to see it, and with anesthetic she probably didn't feel it either... and she didn't do it with her own hands, so she didn't do it. Lots of Pro-Choice rhetoric talks about wether or not the child is real to the woman, wether it has value to her... and that is what I'm talking about. It is easy to do something like that as long as the victem doesn't get up and clobber you. The baby sure as heck can't.
Let's take a few statements one makes about fetuses and replace it with other human populations, shall we?
"The Fetus is a parasite."
"The Jew is a parasite." No a Jew does not latch on to you and suck the life out... unless s/he is a lawyer
"Babies are a sexually transmitted disease."
"Children are a sexually transmitted disease." Yep what is the diffrence... none, Your point is?
"I don't want this fetus."
"I don't want this neighbor." Yep... Your point is?
"I should decide if I want this fetus or not."
"I should decide if I want this or not." Now I think I get you: by removing the fetus it makes it sound better? Ya that seems true, does it matter though?
The logic is just stupid... you can yell at me about rape, but rape is a very tiny minority amoung abortions. If 1 in every 4 babies are being aborted then that must be because people are fucking around without bothering to take precautions. When Nathanson lead the feminists to make Abortion legal, they said that the few thousand illigal abortions done every year would then become legal. Yeah, sure that's really what happened. All they did was turn women into whores. Oh, but Nathanson is a guy, isn't he?
1/3 embryos and feti die off do to genetic abnormalities... not abortion.
I think your males allow abortion theory is bunk! I remember a survey taken at my HS a couple of years back and 15% more men then women were against abortion. It seems that males think they have rights to an embryo or fetus. It seems the idea that we have no choose on what is going to happen to “Our flesh and blood” bothers us. I disagree: I don’t have to have the life suck out of me for nine months, I don’t get stretch marks or puke for 2-3 month strait or risk my life in child birth. I think it is the women’s right to choose and NEVER a man’s.
There you go, Xev... screw around and not bother thinking about her or the kid she gets because of you. Thats half the reason Abortion was legalized, and what these feminists never figured out is all they did was make your job easier instead of harder. You know, I almost feel good that after several abortions lots of girls end up never being able to have kids again. If she was irresponsible enough to end up having 5 abortions in the first place how the heck can we expect her to take care of her kids?
Xev & Xevious: come on now? talking to our self is just sick!
So what? Chimpanzees and humans can't interbreed, can they? No, of course not... they aren't the same species!
Well, thank you for clearing that up. You consider it a matter of emotionalism to consider it sentient. Whoopie. My cat has emotions, so does my dog. Are they sentient? A dolphin is fairly bright. Is he sentient? How about a chimpanzee, or an Elephant, or most other large brained mammals?
Yeah, but not everywhere. You can still get 3rd and 2nd term abortions in places, and lots of feminists aren't happy with the regulation of abortion at all.
Yeah, well where was the survey taken? You know, Nathanson admitted that his survey in the 70's which stated that 60% of Americans would be tollerant of abortion was entirely made up. If the very data which was used to legalize abortion was all fake how can I trust anything the feminists come up with? You seem to forget to that the child inside the woman takes two people to make, and the father should have rights to his children. If you didn't notice, lots of those wack-o's which are blowing up Abortion clinics aren't fundamentalists but fathers who found out that their girl went out and had an abortion.
Instead of quoting everything over and over I'm just going to answer out right:
1. Like I said somewhere before: There are people that are NOT genetically compatible with other people.
2. Yes animals with emotion deserver rights as well, but since people are greedy, selfish and egotistical animals will never get it.
3. I also disagree with 2-3 term abortions but again since it is not a part of society yet I still feel iffy about it.
4. I said at my old High School. Has anyone ever taken a survey across a nation that compares man and women’s opinions on this ?
5. Takes two so? Like I said it’s the women doing all the work not the man! Its basic moral that those that work for it have the rights to it. How hard is it for a guy to make a child?, its even fun!
1. Like I said somewhere before: There are people that are NOT genetically compatible with other people.
2. Yes animals with emotion deserver rights as well, but since people are greedy, selfish and egotistical animals will never get it.
3. I also disagree with 2-3 term abortions but again since it is not a part of society yet I still feel iffy about it.
4. I said at my old High School. Has anyone ever taken a survey across a nation that compares man and women’s opinions on this ?
5. Takes two so? Like I said it’s the women doing all the work not the man! Its basic moral that those that work for it have the rights to it. How hard is it for a guy to make a child?, its even fun!
There are some people not genetically compatible with other people. If that were true, then biologically you would be talking about there being TWO species of the genus Homo existing on this planet. If you are talking about genetic defects, you should know that all the DNA they got in order to make them exist came from members of our spcies... and like I said, Chimps aren't members of our species. Your defininitions on species and genetics just seem skewed to me.
Yeah, the lady carried the kid. That is the way mother nature designed it to be. So, before you think about sleeping around why not just LOOK at the guy first? If you KNOW that having sex can get you pregnant than you would think that women would be a little more selective! Wait, they used to be, didn't they? Jeeze, the logic is just that plain. If you are going to be humping around, hump with someone who gives a darn about you and is willing to chip in his part of the labor. Sure the woman has to carry that baby, but (and feminists don't admit this) who is going to take care of HER when she gets to the point she can't work for a while? Yeah, you will say that that justifies your abortion righ there, but maybe you should have thought about that before you humped.
Yeah, the lady carried the kid. That is the way mother nature designed it to be. So, before you think about sleeping around why not just LOOK at the guy first? If you KNOW that having sex can get you pregnant than you would think that women would be a little more selective! Wait, they used to be, didn't they? Jeeze, the logic is just that plain. If you are going to be humping around, hump with someone who gives a darn about you and is willing to chip in his part of the labor. Sure the woman has to carry that baby, but (and feminists don't admit this) who is going to take care of HER when she gets to the point she can't work for a while? Yeah, you will say that that justifies your abortion righ there, but maybe you should have thought about that before you humped.