What happens when America doesnt get it right

[w1z4rd]

I know this is going to be a pretty hectic post, but I wanted to speak about this somewhere so I am going to try here. A lot of people have issue with America and their peace keeping efforts, but on a whole, most countries that have had America come in and sort out the place.... well they are generally better than if America had not gone in there, or if America is pushed out by public opinion.

Let me give you the example thats being on my mind. America and the UN were in Somalia in 1993. There were many troops on the ground and it was basically Somalia`s last chance to get its stuff sorted out.

What happened? The propagandists went in (we have them in this forum... thank goodness one of them left).. Somalians were not smart enough to realize that this was basically the best option for them. Some American soldiers got captured and then African mobbed... and American soldiers got ripped to pieces by the sick mob that represents Africa.

America then pulled out of Somalia, and then because the UN couldnt carry out its mission without American support... it pulled out after a couple of African mobs skinned a couple of UN soldiers.

After watching that I am now under the belief that Somalians deserve all the shite theyre getting now. The world and America gave them their chance and they acted like a pack of animals and ripped people to pieces.

From looking at the world and history... the dodgy countries invaded by the UN and/or the US... almost ALWAYS come out better from the situation (if things go well). Examples of this can be seen in South Korea, Western Europe, Japan, Kuwait, and I would even put Iraq on that list now. Countries that fought change tend to still be shitty little crap holes only dictators and uneducated people wanna live. Vietnam, North Korea, Somalia being good examples of those.

I know a lot of people here just love to hate America... and GW Bush didnt help the whole situation. I dont care if America did it to grab resources, the fact of the matter is... generally countries with US and UN support are better off without it... and if you screw up your chance for that aid... then you are just another mob loving Somalian.

(I really really really hate mobs. ... living in Africa... I know how quickly and how often they form.. and what happens in them.... something the media has not shown the educated world enough).

Somalia is a perfect example of what happens when you dont get it right.

 

[tim840]

:bravo: that is exactly my opinion.

 

[snake river rufus]

I'd like to see an honest example of a country that ended up worse after all is said and done.

 

[cosmictraveler]

After watching that I am now under the belief that Somalians deserve all the shite theyre getting now

So what a few terrorists/insurgents have done makes you not care about the other 99.9 percent of the people who live in that country who didn't do anything but are being tortured and murdered by these same thugs? I really think you don't understand what the "normal" people who just want to live and get on their lives are going through there at all, or it seems you don't at least.

 

[Challenger78]

Remember the marshall plan ?
Look into it before you start applauding the US.
Every move always has an ulterior motive. Sometimes it's harmless(good PR/Humanitarian assistance-Somalia) , in other areas, it can be too costly.(Iran).

 

[w1z4rd]

So what a few terrorists/insurgents have done makes you not care about the other 99.9 percent of the people who live in that country who didn't do anything but are being tortured and murdered by these same thugs? I really think you don't understand what the "normal" people who just want to live and get on their lives are going through there at all, or it seems you don't at least.

No dude... I know the "normal" people better than you do. I know how the African mob works.. it happens ALL the time here. Those "normal people" ... while nice family people... will mob just for the sake of mobbing most of the time.

Ive got an educated Zimbabwe friend... he got involved in a university mob and smashed in anything he could find because he found it "fun".

When cops operate in Africa you need to shoot rubber bullets all the time at crowds to disperse them to try prevent mob formations. Everyone and the kitchen sink gets involved in a mob.

No one is safe from the mob... not the cops, not normal people, not journalists.. it will catch you.. and your head will be smashed in with rocks while they put car tyres on you and set you alight.

Even in South Africa ... most likey the best off African country.. it happens on a daily basis. For reasons as stupid as witch craft.

 

[candy]

Ironically mob rule is pure albeit often violent democracy.

Personally as an American I would prefer that the USA stayed out of other countries. Let them get it right or wrong on their own. So what if women have to be little more than slaves or there are death camps and starving children. As long as it is somewhere else happening to someone else why bother.

 

[w1z4rd]

Ironically mob rule is pure albeit often violent democracy.

Personally as an American I would prefer that the USA stayed out of other countries. Let them get it right or wrong on their own. So what if women have to be little more than slaves or there are death camps and starving children. As long as it is somewhere else happening to someone else why bother.

Has putting your head in the sand ever helped any country?

 

[cosmictraveler]

Has putting your head in the sand ever helped any country?

But it hasn't helped many either, look at Russia with Stalin.

 

[leopold]

.. and GW Bush didnt help the whole situation. I dont care if America did it to grab resources, the fact of the matter is...

what resources did america "grab" in iraq?
before we went to iraq gas prices was low. after we got there gas prices increased.
gas prices were through the roof until america set a date for withdrawal.

 

[tim840]

Ironically mob rule is pure albeit often violent democracy.

Personally as an American I would prefer that the USA stayed out of other countries. Let them get it right or wrong on their own. So what if women have to be little more than slaves or there are death camps and starving children. As long as it is somewhere else happening to someone else why bother.

Don't you think that's a rather selfish thing to say? Just because it's not affecting you, it's not your problem? Try to see it from another point of view. What if that was you that was little more than a slave? what if that was you that was being starved and abused in a foreign death camp? You are weak, helpless, crushed, and your only hope is that someone with the ability to help you will take the responsibility to help you - that someone will show some compassion and right the wrongs done to you, not because it has anything to do with them, but because they couldn't bear to see you oppressed and destroyed.

Isn't there something in that?

 

[iceaura]

The judgment of whether a country is better off generations after invasion and destruction by a larger power is probably beyond human capability. Is India better off for the years of British colonial oppression? Is China better off than India? Is Siberia better off for its years under the Soviet boot?

What is freedom worth, btw?

It's hard to get a control group. And most of the comparisons are of countries both of which were "straightened out" one time or another by the US or some UN power.

But we can I think say most people would rather their children were orphaned in Cuba than in Haiti, any time in the past fifty years. Canada seems to be better off than Colombia, Guatemala, Honduras, or Mexico. Pakistan seems better off than Afghanistan. I'd take residence in Vietnam over Cambodia or Burma in the years after the US/Vietnam War. Brazil seems to be doing better than Chile or Nicaragua. Iran seems to be better off than Iraq, and if they can win the latest round as well better off yet.

Getting straightened out by the US was maybe something that had to happen around WWII, neither before nor afterwards, maybe.

 

[w1z4rd]

You think Iran is better than Iraq? I would prefer to throw a shoe in Iraq than in Iran.

 

[orcot]

The fact is that most of africa would have been better off if they would have stayed colonies.

Then again other countries like the India and the ones in south east asia are doing rather well. So perhaps we are somewhat responsible and we should have made a better (slithly longer) exit slowly replacing key positions with natives, but that yust not true not afther 50 years. Native incompentence is more likly to blame.

At least for Congo the independe of belgium was the worst disaster the region had sinds the dawn of humanity, without it the first and second congo wars would never have happend and 4 million people would never been killed.

 

[iceaura]

You think Iran is better than Iraq? I would prefer to throw a shoe in Iraq than in Iran.

At W?

The guy who threw the shoe has been kidnapped or detained twice in the past year, and has relatives who have suffered worse.

Native incompentence is more likly to blame.

They did OK for a long time, before the slave trade and the colonizations hit them.

 

[w1z4rd]

At W?

The guy who threw the shoe has been kidnapped or detained twice in the past year, and has relatives who have suffered worse.

Now if I was a christian who had being detained in Iran.. twice before.. and I threw a shoe at a Muslim leader like that wheeltapper president of Iran... what would have happened to me?

 

[w1z4rd]

what resources did america "grab" in iraq?
before we went to iraq gas prices was low. after we got there gas prices increased.
gas prices were through the roof until america set a date for withdrawal.

People with oil and weapon shares made a KILLING! ... guess who has interests in oil and weapons? The resource gains were not for a nation or nations but for individuals ... as per usual.

 

[iceaura]

Now if I was a christian who had being detained in Iran.. twice before..and I threw a shoe at a Muslim leader like that wheeltapper president of Iran...

Not at all equivalent situations.

You are stretching. The question is, where would you rather live - the standard bet: you choose the country, your worst enemy assigns your general demographic class. Something like a fifth of Iraq's population has left their homes - many (some count millions) have left the country. Nothing like that has happened in Iran. The US has, over the past 12 years of intervention, created a real mess in Iraq.

And the rest of my list remains. Cuba and Haiti are a particularly instructive pair. Canada and Mexico another. The US record at improving countries by force is not a good one, barring the single example of WWII.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The OP is misguided propaganda. Armies are mobs. Invading a country which is no threat & interfering with things they shouldn't are what the USA is best at.
Most people in Iraq are worse off than before the US latest invasion there. Life is much more dangerous there than before. Many times the number of innocent people of 9/11 have died there as a direct result of the US invasion.
Korea & Vietnam were each 1 nation for centuries until invaders divided them. Vietnamese begged the US for help against the French but the US refused until the French left & "North & South" decided to join BACK together. Then the US determined to go against the wishes of the Vietnamese people & keep their nation divided.
I could go on & on & on & on. The US is & has been thru all its history a nasty selfish ignoble bully, at best.
1111

 

[quadraphonics]

Vietnam, North Korea, Somalia being good examples of those.

Come on, Vietnam's not so bad. I certainly wouldn't put them in anything close to the same category as North Korea or Somalia, either in terms of internal conditions (Vietname is on the UN Security Council, for pete's sake..), relations with the United States (Vietnam has a trade treaty with the US, hosts US Navy ships in her ports, and has been a diplomatic ally on issues such as Iran sanctions) or the effect of US actions.