what happened 40,000 years ago?

[Light Travelling]

you see i am sure we could relate about seeing behind social masks. tat is when psychdelicized the ability to see behind a particular MASK a person (straight) may be wearing

I can relate to that.

Now have we accessed a higher a larger consciousness to be able to perceive that.

or

has the drug just wiped some of the social conditioing from the front of our minds?


Probably both IMO

 

[duendy]

I can relate to that.

Now have we accessed a higher a larger consciousness to be able to perceive that.

or

has the drug just wiped some of the social conditioing from the front of our minds?


Probably both IMO

yes i agree. Both. in tat state of consciousness wht i find i that two 'sides' are seen to be ultimately connected. whereas in our--what i am callin our culturally indoctrinated--consciousness, we are led to believe that one thing can cancel the othe out. of course when i say 'cultural', in tis i include mythologcal, philosphical and religious indoctrination of course

so for example, if one posits 'highjer consciousness' what does this mean? what then has happened to 'lower'? do you see what i mean?

 

[Light Travelling]

yes i agree. Both. in tat state of consciousness wht i find i that two 'sides' are seen to be ultimately connected. whereas in our--what i am callin our culturally indoctrinated--consciousness, we are led to believe that one thing can cancel the othe out. of course when i say 'cultural', in tis i include mythologcal, philosphical and religious indoctrination of course

so for example, if one posits 'higher consciousness' what does this mean? what then has happened to 'lower'? do you see what i mean?

I dont see it as two different consciousnesses, more a sliding scale of consciousness. I will use the analogy of a ladder (the ladder being consciousness);

we stand at the bottom of the ladder, we can see our front step, maybe some grass. All fine.

we then climb halfway up the ladder, now we can see over the wall and see the house next door. we can still see the step and the grass but our perception of it has changed.

we climb to the top of the ladder. WOW we can see the whole town. we look down at the step and it seems insignificant - our perception of it has completely changed, the bottom of the ladder is no longer important to us, because we are concerened with other things. BUT the bottom of the ladder is still there. It hasn't gone anywhere.

it is like that with higher and lower consciousness - because we climb higher the lower doesn't disappear. It just becomes un important.

 

[c20H25N3o]

it is like that with higher and lower consciousness - because we climb higher the lower doesn't disappear. It just becomes un important.

Why unimportant? Do you just mean less visible? The bottom of the ladder must be on very firm footing if you are not to topple when you get higher.

peace

c20

 

[duendy]

I dont see it as two different consciousnesses, more a sliding scale of consciousness. I will use the analogy of a ladder (the ladder being consciousness);

me:: a very shamanic idea...ie., of a ladder. have you read Jeremy Narby's book The Cosmic Serpent by any chance?

we stand at the bottom of the ladder, we can see our front step, maybe some grass. All fine. we then climb halfway up the ladder, now we can see over the wall and see the house next door. we can still see the step and the grass but our perception of it has changed.

we climb to the top of the ladder. WOW we can see the whole town. we look down at the step and it seems insignificant - our perception of it has completely changed, the bottom of the ladder is no longer important to us, because we are concerened with other things. BUT the bottom of the ladder is still there. It hasn't gone anywhere.

me::i tough about this idea in adifferent context after reading someone mention it. ie., i tought of te people living in comfortable existences...yet, if one were to raise eye level, it's see much more dangerous goings on in te wider now more exposed vicinity
Bu my view of tespectrum of consciousness potentia, is more a continuum, which i like to think of as spiral. so thaqt every stage and mood of consciousness is ok. that one doesn't HVE to be a superbeing, and yet can have access to ecstasy via sacraments. that to me keeps it more earthy and less pretentious. thoug one of course has to be careful of getting inflated through the interpretation of sacred experience

it is like that with higher and lower consciousness - because we climb higher the lower doesn't disappear. It just becomes un important.

there yo see. i wouldn't see it that way myself. for the moment you judge someting--event, etc unimportant you ignore a vital dynamic of continuum

 

[Light Travelling]

there yo see. i wouldn't see it that way myself. for the moment you judge someting--event, etc unimportant you ignore a vital dynamic of continuum

Why unimportant? Do you just mean less visible? The bottom of the ladder must be on very firm footing if you are not to topple when you get higher.

peace
c20

Yes I think unimportant was a bad choice of word. It is important that it is there. I simply meant that our attention was not currently focusing on it.

And where we are on the ladder, or spiral is the point at which our consciousness is aware of itself being conscious (or conscious of itself being aware - I'm not sure) . The consciousness in a way is 'us', it just has to be aware of itself 'being'.

thats quite convoluted - - but im' hoping someone will say "I know what you mean".......

 

[c20H25N3o]

Yes I think unimportant was a bad choice of word. It is important that it is there. I simply meant that our attention was not currently focusing on it.

And where we are on the ladder, or spiral is the point at which our consciousness is aware of itself being conscious (or conscious of itself being aware - I'm not sure) . The consciousness in a way is 'us', it just has to be aware of itself 'being'.

thats quite convoluted - - but im' hoping someone will say "I know what you mean".......

lol. I do know what you mean However I believe that our 'being' has to be subjected to the more physical lower conscious states in order that we develop 'character'. Using psychedelics or even extreme forms of meditation must never be done lightly because if you have not developed enough character through endurance experienced during lower states of consciousness, you will not be grounded enough to maintain 'self control' whilst in higher states.
The experience of being totally self-aware in a higher state of consciousness is a little bit like being a baby bird that has just found out what its wings are for but the baby bird must still be aware of where the safe ground is even if it the ground isn't looked at during flight. A bird that flies unaware that they have to land somewhere safe could well end up over a deep ocean.

peace

c20

 

[duendy]

lol. I do know what you mean However I believe that our 'being' has to be subjected to the more physical lower conscious states in order that we develop 'character'. Using psychedelics or even extreme forms of meditation must never be done lightly because if you have not developed enough character through endurance experienced during lower states of consciousness, you will not be grounded enough to maintain 'self control' whilst in higher states.

me::why would you want 'self control'? surely free ecstatic exprience is more a letting go of restraints and boundaries? self-control on any mode of consciousness i see as the problem

The experience of being totally self-aware in a higher state of consciousness is a little bit like being a baby bird that has just found out what its wings are for but lmthe baby bird must still be aware of where the safe ground is even if it the ground isn't looked at during flight. A bird that flies unaware that they have to land somewhere safe could well end up over a deep ocean.

me::wonder what you mean by 'totally self aware'?

peace

c20

()**)(****))*)))))))))---------------*

 

[c20H25N3o]

why would you want 'self control'? surely free ecstatic exprience is more a letting go of restraints and boundaries? self-control on any mode of consciousness i see as the problem.

lack of self control in any situation is hazardous. free ecstatic experience without self-control could lead one to believe they can actually fly and jump off a bridge to prove it to their deluded selves.

me::wonder what you mean by 'totally self aware'?

Being acutely aware of your person objectively rather than the usual subjective state experienced when consciousness is not heightened.

peace

c20

 

[duendy]

lack of self control in any situation is hazardous. free ecstatic experience without self-control could lead one to believe they can actually fly and jump off a bridge to prove it to their deluded selves.

me::we are talkin different meanings. to not jump off a building, cliff, or into fire should be learned instinctual intelligence. for example in the case of fire, many children learn the hard way that fire burns. hopfully not to draaitically. so this knowledge becomes instinctual, as it is for other animals.
.....What I am meaning by self-control is when te psyche splits into a 'controller' versus a 'contrlled'. so example, you FEEL sad, but a part of you -the controller, having been indoctrinated by culture that being sad etc is 'bad' tries to control natural feelings...etc etc. get me. i am saying that this builds up a rigid sense of ego which cuts itself off from sensual experience, and Nature

Being acutely aware of your person objectively rather than the usual subjective state experienced when consciousness is not heightened.

peace

c20

'being acutely aware of your person OBJECTively' reminds me of what i warn about,
i also tink you underestimate ecstasy. you seem to paint it as though it is like being drunk and sense-LESS.....?

 

[c20H25N3o]

We differ duendy at a fundamental level. I do not hold a view that somehow I am indoctrinated against my will or to my detriment to prefer the familiarity of society. I am pleased to exercise control over myself and I 'prefer' to have my feet on the ground. I understand that the ecstacy you speak of has nothing to do with being drunk and senseless but the state is at odds with my desire for familiarity. I am not strong enough to deal with the level of emotions one can experience during such bouts of ecstacy. I become too despondant about the reality to which i know I must return. And return I must. I have other people's suffering to deal with.

peace

c20

 

[duendy]

We differ duendy at a fundamental level.

me;: we differ...yes, it seems so, but i dont know at a fundamental level. for at a fundmental level allis intimately interelated, even no and yes

I do not hold a view that somehow I am indoctrinated against my will or to my detriment to prefer the familiarity of society.

me::that is only for you to know though i could make comments

I am pleased to exercise control over myself and I 'prefer' to have my feet on the ground.

me::if you are 'pleased'...what can i say?

I understand that the ecstacy you speak of has nothing to do with being drunk and senseless but the state is at odds with my desire for familiarity.

me::my experience of ecstasy is that it is SUB-familiarity

I am not strong enough to deal with the level of emotions one can experience during such bouts of ecstacy. I become too despondant about the reality to which i know I must return. And return I must. I have other people's suffering to deal with.

me::there is no division between ecstatic expression and ordinary life. it is continuum

peace

c20

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><

 

[c20H25N3o]

there is no division between ecstatic expression and ordinary life. it is continuum

then why draw the distinction at all?

peace

c20

 

[duendy]

then why draw the distinction at all?

peace

c20

well a continuum isn't a static entity...it is a flowering event, if you like.....it'd be absurd tp say ordinary life and ecstasy are the same.....yet

for example they intermingle as does death and life. for example most people will tink of 'death' being at the 'end' of 'life'. so this becomeslike a concept which influences actual feeling of being
But really when yer tink it, death is totally interlated wit life. when you go from here to there, 'here' has died,,,,,,its become the past, a memory.....so it's like te 'moment' is forever dying and being reborn

when you exprine ecstasy, the life behind these static words comes awesomely alive......every moment is ecstasy......and that is ecstatic isn't it. but that INTENSITY is yet ALSO part of contuinuum. yo cant always be like that. but yet ou can still have feelings of 'ecstasy' in in 'ordinary' life

where i feel some cults modern and anceint went wrong -as it were--even some who had psychedelic sacramaents, isthat they deified the ecstaic exprience into a 'God' which then became the goal to get to. espcially when psychedelics were eventually replaced by symbols and words

ten we get te idea of 'heaven' and 'hell', and for Middles Ages, Nature was considerd the 'Devil's Shit' which is like the hallway for eternal damnation

S i like to explore a relationship with psychedelics which dosn't disect the trip from the 'come down'....but integratews the insight of communion whilst also being aware of actual oppression by the State, and te desire to escape Nature.....why the livin fuck should we. what's needed is to speak UP for Nature

 

[c20H25N3o]

what's needed is to speak UP for Nature

Frustrating isn't it?

...I become too despondant about the reality to which i know I must return. And return I must....

You are not going to be received well with your dilated pupils and half baked smile, by people who are dealing with their day to day sh*t the best way they can. For them nature is surrounded with thorns and thistles and hearing you say 'Come, marvel at nature with me' just sounds out of place in their incredibly complex busy lives. They dont have time to. My advice is give them something to smile about. Help them out in practical ways. Then they may praise nature with you.

peace

c20

 

[Xylene]

I'd have assumed that with the hominid ancestors of the human race going back several million years, they would have been experimenting (accidently at first but later deliberately) with various drugs they found occurring naturally. Perhaps, that being so, the Human brain has evolved with the help of the bursts of chemical signals released by the use of naturally occurring drugs. i.e. we have evolved along with and because of our ingestion of drugs, and about 40,000 we reached a certain tipping-point, when drug-induced creativity reached a certain level where the art-work of the caves became a normal part of life and culture at the time.

 

[duendy]

Frustrating isn't it?

me::can be very so, and despairing. when you see what is happening, and even shit you DONT know!

You are not going to be received well with your dilated pupils and half baked smile, by people who are dealing with their day to day sh*t the best way they can.

me::in that presumption you are building an image of me, underestmating me, and also being patronizing. am not angry, am just tellin you how i read that........not, speakin up for Nature is not just some naive running around 'eyes dilated' etc. it takes a much more broader approach. remember yu ARE Nature so your just naturally defending Nature and yourself and oters including other species.

For them nature is surrounded with thorns and thistles and hearing you say 'Come, marvel at nature with me' just sounds out of place in their incredibly complex busy lives. They dont have time to.

me::and tis is trowin the towel in for a peaceful life, and embracing conformity. also THAT is underestimting people also. people are complex they aren't 2 dimensional as you seem to think,

My advice is give them something to smile about. Help them out in practical ways. Then they may praise nature with you.

me:k i will devote my time to create a teme park...hows that??
no.....you are going off on one here mate. you have to keep an integrity. it dont MATTER if noone listens to you. you feel wht you feel and do what you do!

peace

c20

<.................................<<

 

[duendy]

I'd have assumed that with the hominid ancestors of the human race going back several million years, they would have been experimenting (accidently at first but later deliberately) with various drugs they found occurring naturally.

me::yeah, same here, which is why i named tread as i did. the author who wrote the article seems to think te 'evidence' shows that ourspecies only may have begun using psychedelic vegetation only 40,000 years back, hence the 'sudden' advancement of tool making and beginnings of art......yet humans hve ben around a lot longer than that, and as you say SURELY must have ben aware of such powerful plants, fungi, cacti etc etc......?

Perhaps, that being so, the Human brain has evolved with the help of the bursts of chemical signals released by the use of naturally occurring drugs. i.e. we have evolved along with and because of our ingestion of drugs, and about 40,000 we reached a certain tipping-point, when drug-induced creativity reached a certain level where the art-work of the caves became a normal part of life and culture at the time.

i know from reading other sources--such as Animals and Psychedelics, by Giorgio Samorini tat even animals, insects etc seek out consciousness changing fruits, plants etc, which include psychedelics......So tis implies that our species and the other same types of species that preceded homo sapiens would propbably have also.........hmmmmm so whats wit tis number of 40,000...maybe it was a sudden metamorphoses of the human bodymind......

 

[c20H25N3o]

Duendy: I dont mean to patronise you. Sorry if it came across that way.

How would you practically suggest freeing these elements of nature that are otherwise caught up in conformity? (other than building a theme park which my kids would thank you for incidentally )


Thanks

c20

 

[duendy]

Duendy: I dont mean to patronise you. Sorry if it came across that way.
me::dont worry. you seem respectful generally so i wont whip you...hehe. not yet anyhow

How would you practically suggest freeing these elements of nature that are otherwise caught up in conformity? (other than building a theme park which my kids would thank you for incidentally )


Thanks

c20

love your questions........
we have to have the passion, which can come from psychedelic bonding with Nature.
It has to be understood, that the State philosoph is geared to separate the child from Nature and manipulate her him to accept the status quo. To be a slaave for the System. So 'bonding with Nature' with the help of psychedelic vegetation etc is a way to undo this cultural indoctrination

It also is important to begin exploring mythology. This is cause we usually all live via a mythology. As secular as our culture believes itself to be it is still myth. a paradigm. So exploring all about mythology, ancient, and modern, is a means to unravel the hold A particular myth may have over you

I realy recommend you checkout about Ecoliteracy which has been inspired by Fritjof Capra. I love this dude and have actually met him at a conference and shook hands wid him. he is a lovely person. I love the way he understands how introducing children to the Intelligence of Nature is incredibly important, and this is happening due to his and others' influences

So we need a kind of two way approach--really multiidisciplnary, multi dimensional approach to this vast vast issue. both ecstatic exploration with Nature and HONEST education

anothe important avenue of research--very--is the current myth holding it all together. ie., the myth of mental illness. I suggest people read Thomas Szasz and others about this myth, because as said it is the foundation of this paradgim as the Church dogmja was forits predecessor. Its belief effects everything. How you feel wit others, even how you feel about yourself, and severe unrelentless oppression of people, including children......