What grave sins Jews commited to deserve the Holocaust?

[spidergoat]

If not. Anybody could explain me why the jewish nation was hated almost during all the ages of history? Why no other nation can inspire such intensity of hate?uke:

Because, like Gypsies, they were there. One of the few minorities in Europe. Also they were not Christians. Christians tended to hate anyone that wasn't Christian.

 

[wynn]

If you want to continue with this strawman sort of outlook (given in bold above) then I guess you must also think these jews are sounding antisemitic ...

As a matter of fact, Jewish anti-semitism is not uncommon, there is the term self-hating Jew.


There's an interesting film on this theme, The Believer. Very much worth seeing, in my opinion. I wish we could discuss it at the forums.

 

[arauca]

Apart of anti-semitism, other hated nations/races exist under the label of anti?

If not. Anybody could explain me why the jewish nation was hated almost during all the ages of history? Why no other nation can inspire such intensity of hate?uke:

You used the word nation sense year 135 there was no Jewish nation , Impairs have come an go , but Jews have not made an attempt to establish a nation for them selves , until the Zionist movement. Now they have a homeland and representation.
I have been an Immigrant in several nation and including here I am considered as a foreigner even I have the citizen card , As a foreigner you are mistreated, in some nation more then in others specially because your physical apparense .... Now that said that The Jew normally segregate himself from the rest of the society and that bring more suspicion against them ( Jews ) and if some thing happen in the society the group that Isolate themselves become a scapegoat and I think that is what happen in most of the time .
In this USA we have discrimination against Blacks and reticently it have shown itself against Spanish speaking .. because the take away jobs .. In case with Jews they had the money and they were bleeding the people loaning with usury .. So hate develops

 

[wynn]

Equivocating nonsense. Innocent of any of the justifications used to do them harm. Unless your justification is just "they must have sinned some time so they deserve whatever they get", which makes it sound like you think the Holocaust was perfectly justified. It was not, and this line of argument is only making you sound antisemitic.

If you say that the Holocaust - or any other thing - was not justified, then you are also saying that God is unjust, powerless, or malevolent! Or even that God does not exist.

If nothing else, you must settle for the justification "this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in /it/".

If you insist on accepting Christianity at face value, i.e. "given to a person by God", then you must also accept that the bible teaches redemption is possible, i.e. people can change.

I think this is where Christianity shows its lacks and inconsistencies, and which is why not everything can be sufficiently explained with Christian doctrine(s).
It is no wonder that the various Christian denominations fight so much over these issues.

If a person is said to have a particular nature, then this is the nature they have, something that cannot change. Thus redemption has to be about something other than change of a person's nature.

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. -John 9​

For one, as quoted earlier, God took issue with the Israelites early on, when He called them stiff-necked and threatened to destroy them.

For two, it's not clear how far that example with the blind person is to be extended. Does it only apply for diseases, and perhaps natural catastrophes, or does it also apply to humans affecting one another?

This seems equivalent, although oddly worded, to the notion that true free will precludes arbitrary intervention. It is not that god is powerless, only that there is a greater reason to refrain from exercising such power.

What do you think that greater reason is?

I was talking about physical limits and consequences, as only outwardly expressed action can be evaluated as free will (ability to do otherwise) or not. "Do" is not equivalent to "think". You are also conflating the consequences of mental activity with the consequences on mental activity. Thinking of a pink elephant is an autonomic action, devoid of any opportunity for choice.

By that reasoning, Western psychotherapy and Buddhism are complete nonsense, completely ineffective.

By this argument, you would dismiss all free will simply because you cannot fully control your own heartbeat.

No, only you would.

Free will exists within a scope of options. That scope is limited. Because that scope is limited, we sometimes have the impression that our free will is limited.

(And yes, I have heard it is possible to learn to fully control one's heartbeat.)

 

[entelecheia]

Also they were not Christians. Christians tended to hate anyone that wasn't Christian.

I see, their god of love, Jesus - 'the christ'- is not so crystanine in his insides.

That Man of Crystal, harbors fungus inside.

Beauty history you told on the crystal man. But i'm not convinced this is the only cause that explains why dont exist the words: anti-japanesism, anti-singapurism, anti-koreism, etc

 

[spidergoat]

I see, their god of love, Jesus - 'the christ'- is not so crystanine in his insides.

That Man of Crystal, harbors fungus inside.

Beauty history you told on the crystal man. But i'm not convinced this is the only cause that explains why dont exist the words: anti-japanesism, anti-singapurism, anti-koreism, etc

Japan was closed to the west for centuries, and there weren't many Korean immigrants to Europe.

 

[Syne]

Equivocating nonsense.

On the contrary, you are ducking and weaving to avoid addressing critiques of your statements head on.

What critique? Equivocation is typically used to "duck and weave" just as you have.

Innocent of any of the justifications used to do them harm.

That's not what I asked.

I asked innocent in who's particular view.

Its impossible to talk of innocence/guilt divorced from some sort of judgmental authority/perspective.

That's why I am asking in who's particular view are you saying that they are innocent.

I gave you an answer generalized to ANY particular perspective. Whether victim, perpetrator, or bystander, any rational, unbiased person can evaluate whether harm was justified by some previous action of the victim. Pick any perspective you like. From any view we can objectively evaluate whether the justification for harm is true. Nazi propaganda even suggests that they new the truth.

Unless your justification is just "they must have sinned some time so they deserve whatever they get", which makes it sound like you think the Holocaust was perfectly justified. It was not, and this line of argument is only making you sound antisemitic.

You are refusing to discuss the broader implications of your statements.

As previously linked, even jews, the victims of nazi persecution, are capable of discussing the concept that the holocaust was a consequence directed by god.

If you want to continue with this strawman sort of outlook (given in bold above) then I guess you must also think these jews are sounding antisemitic ...

What implications? When making an argument it helps to actually getting around to making one.

"Directed by god" does not imply "deserved". Jews typically think they were tested, which is quite different from thinking they deserved it.

 

[entelecheia]

In case with Jews they had the money and they were bleeding the people loaning with usury .. So hate develops

Where is the scientific evidence? How they know unboubtly the ethnicity of the owners of that monopoly?
What if the owners are composed by various ethnicities/religions, they could unite in order to conspire and corrupt authorities as well... :bugeye:
Usury is not a problem raised by a deficient legal system?

 

[Syne]

If you say that the Holocaust - or any other thing - was not justified, then you are also saying that God is unjust, powerless, or malevolent! Or even that God does not exist.

If nothing else, you must settle for the justification "this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in /it/".

No, I am saying that free will necessitates such possibilities.

I think this is where Christianity shows its lacks and inconsistencies, and which is why not everything can be sufficiently explained with Christian doctrine(s).
It is no wonder that the various Christian denominations fight so much over these issues.

If a person is said to have a particular nature, then this is the nature they have, something that cannot change. Thus redemption has to be about something other than change of a person's nature.

Do you have anything to support that claim? People can repent and change their ways. Again, look up neuroplasticity.

For one, as quoted earlier, God took issue with the Israelites early on, when He called them stiff-necked and threatened to destroy them.

For two, it's not clear how far that example with the blind person is to be extended. Does it only apply for diseases, and perhaps natural catastrophes, or does it also apply to humans affecting one another?

Misfortune is misfortune. No one can predict how the chain of events may affect another, even seemingly without human action.

What do you think that greater reason is?

Free will.

I was talking about physical limits and consequences, as only outwardly expressed action can be evaluated as free will (ability to do otherwise) or not. "Do" is not equivalent to "think". You are also conflating the consequences of mental activity with the consequences on mental activity. Thinking of a pink elephant is an autonomic action, devoid of any opportunity for choice.

By that reasoning, Western psychotherapy and Buddhism are complete nonsense, completely ineffective.

You are conflating the effect ON mental activity and the effect OF mental activity. Only in the latter is free will evident, just as someone's free will can be hindered by another because of their own free will and power to enforce it on others.

Free will exists within a scope of options. That scope is limited. Because that scope is limited, we sometimes have the impression that our free will is limited.

Scope is immaterial, as free will is only about the ability to do otherwise. For people to be deserving of all harm they experience, any human inflicting the harm has no choice. If it is necessarily deserved then it is unavoidable.

 

[spidergoat]

... In case with Jews they had the money and they were bleeding the people loaning with usury .. So hate develops

Why were Jews the only ones allowed to loan money?

 

[Bells]

Because, like Gypsies, they were there. One of the few minorities in Europe. Also they were not Christians. Christians tended to hate anyone that wasn't Christian.

Exactly.

The Nazi's also attempted to eliminate the Gypsies as well and very nearly did. So what sin did the Gypsies commit? It's insane, isn't it?

The Jews and all the minority groups who suffered the Holocaust were targeted because they were minority groups and because they were hated as minority groups. We have seen hatred against minorities throughout history. Jews were always seen as minorities and thus as outsiders throughout history.

When the OP asks what sin's the Jews committed to deserve the Holocaust, he fails to define "sin" in the parameters of this discussion. After all, what sins could anyone have done to deserve a Holocaust? What greater sins would they have committed that no other group [aside from the Gypsies since they also suffered their own Holocaust at the hands of the Nazi's and throughout history], had committed..? The answer to that is none. There was no sin and his determination that if there was no sin then God somehow hated them or allowed it to happen shows a level of stupidity and anti-semitism that he somehow hopes will fly under the radar.

 

[lightgigantic]

As a matter of fact, Jewish anti-semitism is not uncommon, there is the term self-hating Jew.

I think it would take a lot more extrapolation to define the previously linked Jewish statements about the holocaust and divinity as derivative of "self hating jews".

 

[pjdude1219]

Because, like Gypsies, they were there. One of the few minorities in Europe. Also they were not Christians. Christians tended to hate anyone that wasn't Christian.

that's an oversimplication. christians didn't tend to hate anyone who wasn't anymore than any of the other abrahamic faiths. it was the thing different. it what caused the internal bloodshed in the church. I think your stating this because of your own internal prejudices.

 

[arauca]

Where is the scientific evidence? How they know unboubtly the ethnicity of the owners of that monopoly?
What if the owners are composed by various ethnicities/religions, they could unite in order to conspire and corrupt authorities as well... :bugeye:
Usury is not a problem raised by a deficient legal system?

You live in a different world, then it was then 80 or more years back . Have you looked into history during the Moors when occupied Spain ,,,, who financed queen Isabel of Spain the adventure of Columbus to America . So don't give me that scientific evidence. .

 

[arauca]

Because, like Gypsies, they were there. One of the few minorities in Europe. Also they were not Christians. Christians tended to hate anyone that wasn't Christian.

You can add to your information the hatred between Serbian and Croats both are Christian then you also can add Roman and Orthodox disliked the Evangelical or Lutherans

 

[arauca]

Because, like Gypsies, they were there. One of the few minorities in Europe. Also they were not Christians. Christians tended to hate anyone that wasn't Christian.

Some more before I forget In the concentration camp of Dachau there is a plaque which say every sixth person killed in Dachau was a Catholic priest

 

[Aqueous Id]

I wanted to know the answers of christians believers or christians agnostics. Not of atheists like you.

If sometimes God decides not to interfere (allowing inmense sufferning, as in the Holocaust) in certain circumstances, ergo, it is clear to me the reasons are beyond human understanding.

It is fascinating to imagine that God lovely helped a judaic prayer, and the next day allowed the most diabolic annihilation of humans ever.

It tell us 'something' about the Personality of God?
Can you speculate how The Law of Atraction can have been working in the case of the Holocaust? Does jews attracted themselves the Holocaust?:booo:

You either already know the answer, or else you need to be told: you are the cause. As you live and breathe, every moment that you allow this conversation to proceed, without repudiating the ghastly crimes against Jews, you mark yourself as a tacit anti-Semite. You should clear yourself of this presumption by clearly stating that the perpetrators of all the massacres of Jews throughout history lies entirely on the shoulders of the murderers, and they are principally Christians who believed they were justified by the Bible stories they heard in Church.

To intimate that the relentless persecution of Jews by Christians arrives from any other cause than the savagery, hatred and inciteful nature of the Bible accounts, and that the Christians who murdered them are alone to blame, is to mock them in the memory of the most heinous cruelty ever known in recorded history. I have already demonstrated in the medieval era the accounts by bar Solomon and Godfrey of Bouillon, that there was an express desire by the Christians of that era to murder Jews in retaliation for the crucifixion. These are admissions of guilt.

If your purpose is to protect the guilty and accuse the innocent, then you stand on the wrong side of history--meaning you stand with the Nazis.

Is this your covert intent?

 

[Aqueous Id]

that's an oversimplication. christians didn't tend to hate anyone who wasn't anymore than any of the other abrahamic faiths. it was the thing different. it what caused the internal bloodshed in the church. I think your stating this because of your own internal prejudices.

Christians hated Jews because they identified them with the crowd that allegedly tortured and crucified Jesus. They hated them because they refused baptism and observance of Christian holy days and sacraments. They hated them because they maintained their own traditions and culture. In other words, the Christians were entirely at fault and the Jews were innocent victims who were butchered out of the most vile of compulsions--religious fervor, coupled with xenophobia. Note, this is a recurring theme in the Bible (killing foreigners, killing for religious reasons.)

 

[Photizo]

Anybody could explain me why the jewish nation was hated almost during all the ages of history? Why no other nation can inspire such intensity of hate?uke:

They (along with Christians) are especially hated and despised by the spiritual forces hostile to God because of their special relationship to Him through Jesus Christ. These hostile forces are arranged in various hierarchical orders with Lucifer at the top. They hold sway over every nation on earth, working all manner of wickedness and mayhem. Though they are extremely powerful, they will be completely and utterly destroyed.

 

[wynn]

They (along with Christians) are especially hated and despised by the spiritual forces hostile to God because of their special relationship to Him through Jesus Christ. These hostile forces are arranged in various hierarchical orders with Lucifer at the top. They hold sway over every nation on earth, working all manner of wickedness and mayhem. Though they are extremely powerful, they will be completely and utterly destroyed.

Where do those "spiritual forces hostile to God" come from?