What exactly is atheism?

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spidergoat,

Anything may indeed be true, all our science may be wrong, but I think it's history of reliability as a method of finding things out exceeds that of religion.

I agree. But only with phenomena that can be explained via naturalistic means, otherwise there is no way of verification.

One may simply feel that something is true, and that's fine, but to proclaim it as universal, to convince rational people, requires something more.

If you are refering to God, then there are methods and disiplines one can undertake, as in religious rules and regulations.

jan.
 
ardena said:
They don't James, there's nothing to struggle with as it is a simple case of an atheist is a person who does not believe in {any} God for whatever reason.

How can anyone struggle with that?
Damned if I know, but as pages of thread on this forum will attest, trying to persuade some of the theists around here that atheism (in general) is an absence of belief is a long, uphill slog.
 
Claiming that God can only be detected via scientific evidence is a claim.

jan.

That is not the claim atheism makes. That is the claim anyone can make and it has NOTHING to do with theism or atheism. It is simply a statement of logic.
 
To know what I believe, I would have to know what exactly this I is ...

That's like saying, 'to know how to drive a car, I must know exactly what a car is. The truth is you don't.

Please justify why you think the analogy with the car applies in this case.

To go with what I believe is the Vedic understanding - Entangled in material nature, my mind is unable to discern what is the soul and what is the working of material nature. I identify with my body, my thoughts, my feelings, my possessions. I can't tell where the line is between the body, thoughts, feelings, possessions, and the soul. To know which it is that I -the spirit soul- believe would require that I be able to discern between material nature and the spiritual.

This part of the discussion was begun when you said:

What you call yourself, and what you actually believe can be two different things.

When I call myself this or that - what is it that does the calling? What am I actually calling that way? The body or the soul?
It is possible that simply due to my worldy conditioning, I automatically consider myself an atheist as I was told from early on by other people that I am an atheist. While at the same time, I also cannot really relate to being called this.
On the other hand, it could be that I really am a hardcore atheist God-hating soul, who is currently mellowed by the workings of material nature to appear to be neither a theist nor an atheist.
Or I could be someting else entirely.

Bottomline, I don't know, but it appears to be important to know what it is that I really I am.

I spoke to a brahmacari a while back, and asked him what it would take, what I would have to do or learn, or what requirements I would have to meet in order to come to their weekly public meetings. He said that I only needed a "sincere desire to come there". I went. But I am not sure I had such a sincere desire, because I don't know what a sincere desire is like to begin with. I went there a few times, and it occured to me that I would have to figure ou what it is that I really believe, what is it that I really am -a theist or an atheist or something else- if I am to continue going there.


Not to make this about me - but my point is that it seems important to know what one really is - whether one is a theist or an atheist or something else.


This is the ...for whatever reason part of my definition. They are simply, atheists, looking to defeat the theist.

Do you think I am trying to defeat you?
 
One may simply feel that something is true, and that's fine, but to proclaim it as universal, to convince rational people, requires something more.

Sure. And the something more that is required might be necessary for both the speaker as well as the audience.
 
spidergoat,



I agree. But only with phenomena that can be explained via naturalistic means, otherwise there is no way of verification.



If you are refering to God, then there are methods and disiplines one can undertake, as in religious rules and regulations.

jan.


Contrary to popular opinion, Science is not the explanation of things by natural means. It attempts to find the reasons for all things, natural or otherwise.
 
Q

“ Originally Posted by Jan Ardena

Claiming that God can only be detected via scientific evidence is a claim.

jan. ”

That is not the claim atheism makes. That is the claim anyone can make and it has NOTHING to do with theism or atheism. It is simply a statement of logic.
what is the logic behind the statement?
(what are the premises)?
 
Damned if I know, but as pages of thread on this forum will attest, trying to persuade some of the theists around here that atheism (in general) is an absence of belief is a long, uphill slog.

Absence, meaning the belief is not there, hence, you do not believe in God.
There can be no uphill struggle to understand that.

jan.
 
what is an example of a (mainstream) scientific claim that isn't based on naturalistic phenomena?

No non-naturalistic claims have become mainstream, but I suggest that is because there is nothing non-naturalistic. It is entirely possible this will be shown to be wrong. It hasn't yet. Perhaps something like quantum theory's "spooky action at a distance" qualifies, but non-naturalistic explanations have not yet been ruled out.
 
You can't lack belief, you disbelieve
That's just semantic hair splitting. Take it to the Linguistics board. ;)
I think there is a difference between the atheist who claims to be an atheist "because there is no evidence of god(s)" and the atheist who is an atheist because he thinks God hates him, and so on.
Huh??? In order to believe that a god hates you, you must first believe that he/she/it exists. In which case you can hardly be an atheist.

What exactly, according to an atheist would be defined as God?
god (lower case G): an imaginary, mythological, metaphorical, etc. creature, usually portrayed in human or nearly human form, which exists in an unobservable and illogical supernatural universe, has supernatural powers that it uses to perturb the functioning of the natural universe, often in inscrutable, capricious or punitive ways, usually focusing its attention on and intervening in the affairs of humans. Gods are found in the mythology of all cultures in all eras and are thus a Jungian archetype: an instinctive belief in a pre-programmed synapse, from a common ancestor who had the coding for it in his DNA and for any of a variety of reasons was wildly successful in reproducing and passing it on.
There is also the problem of what "believe" means. It seems to me that atheists and theists mean different things when they say "belief" or "believe". Generally, to "believe" means to "to hold to be true". Some people use it to imply "to agree". Theists sometimes have it to mean "to have faith". Which are two different things.
The rest of us also use the word in that sense. I believe in America, I believe in the power of rock and roll, I believe in my friend as he struggles to prove himself innocent of a recent crime.
I think most reasons that atheists list as reasons to reject God are such postdecisional rationalizations.
Atheism is not necessarily a decision. There are those of us who were raised in atheistic households. I never heard of religion until I was about seven, and I laughed my head off when some kid in school started telling me about it. I assumed it was a joke. My parents explained that it was more like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, and that little boy's parents had chosen to tell him that fairytale instead of the ones I heard. I was several years older when I had the horrible realization that there are also adults who believe in this particular fairy tale. I spent several more years wondering why no one had ever had the decency to tell them the truth. Then when I became old enough to take it upon myself to tell one of them the truth, I witnessed the damage that is done by allowing a child to grow up believing in a fairy tale. He can't bear the thought that it's not true because it has become part of his identity.
I don't know why so many religious people, especially here, seem to struggle with the concept of atheism.
If they're Christians and Muslims, one of the cornerstones of their particular religions is the directive to evangelize. They believe their god requires them to convince the rest of us that their particular religion is the only correct one. (And of course they disagree to the point of warfare and genocide on which of the two it is.) They have a long history of encountering people who believe in the same god but just have a different version of the religion in which to place it, so they're comfortable with that confrontation. When they meet someone who believes in a different god, they're still on relatively solid ground because they have so much in common and they're just arguing over the details. But when they run into one of us with who sees the god motif as a metaphor rather than a literal description of how the universe works, they are uncomfortable. Our ability to see that in the first place means we have clearer vision than theirs, so we are superior to them in at least one way, and they can't tolerate that.
So. An atheist doesn't believe in God because...... Let's go with, there is no evidence to suggest that there is such a being. That is a claim. You are claiming that if there was such a being, then it would be detected by scientific means.
Once we have studied science we can put it in much more precise language:

The fundamental theory of science is that the natural universe is a closed system; that there is no supernatural universe full of whimsical creatures who meddle with our lives out of pride, selfishness, anger and paternalism. This is the cornerstone of the scientific method, and in good scientific fashion it is recursive.

The theory that the natural universe is a closed system has been tested and peer-reviewed in earnest for half a millennium since the Enlightenment, and less zealously for a long time before that. This is the most-tested theory in the scientific canon, because anyone who succeeds in falsifying it will be one of the most famous people in history.

Yet despite this zeal, it has never been falsified. No evidence, experimentation or reasoning has ever been discovered or developed to challenge the notion that natural laws are all there is, and that everything derives from them.

Like all scientific theories, this one can never be proven true. But, to use the language of the law since the language of science totally sucks as a tool for communicating with laymen, it can be and has been proven true beyond a reasonable doubt. That means just what it says. Although we can never be certain that a supernatural universe full of angry gods does not exist, to believe that it does is unreasonable.

We then apply the Rule of Laplace, another cornerstone of science: Extraordinary assertions must be accompanied by extraordinary evidence before anyone is obliged to treat them with respect.

Assertions of the existence of supernatural phenomena are accompanied, if at all, by the most pathetic evidence. But the existence of gods goes far beyond that because those assertions are accompanied by no evidence at all.

People who believe in gods do so because humans are programmed to believe in gods; it's in our DNA. Those archetypal kinds of beliefs simply feel true, and that makes those beliefs stronger than any beliefs based on learning, reasoning and experience. People rarely consider where archetypal beliefs come from, so they never wonder where the evidence for them is. They just assume it's there somewhere and they're comfortable with that.

The rest of us aren't. If you're going to tell us a fairy tale, you'd better have a thousand trustworthy witnesses with videocameras. Or just one, and we'll at least finally be obligated to treat your fairy tale with respect, even if we still find it to be just a fairy tale.
 
greenberg,

Please justify why you think the analogy with the car applies in this case.

It's quite simple; one does not need to know everything there is to know about a car, in order to understand the essential reason for its existence.

When I call myself this or that - what is it that does the calling? What am I actually calling that way? The body or the soul?

One thing is for sure, when calling yourself, it's not the this or that.
If one minute you're dave, then you change your name to mick, then you call yourself sally the transexual, then i would say you are calling the body.

Another thing to notice is, the caller never changes.

It is possible that simply due to my worldy conditioning, I automatically consider myself an atheist as I was told from early on by other people that I am an atheist. While at the same time, I also cannot really relate to being called this.

If you love ice cream, and all your life you were being told you hate ice cream, what happens when you taste it.
The confusion is most probably due to the term "atheist".
If it were possible to be atheist to ice cream, it would only mean you don't believe, the essence, is what it actually is, to you. :)

On the other hand, it could be that I really am a hardcore atheist God-hating soul, who is currently mellowed by the workings of material nature to appear to be neither a theist nor an atheist.
Or I could be someting else entirely.

Most likely, you are, like me and most others in the western world, atheistic.

I spoke to a brahmacari a while back, and asked him what it would take, what I would have to do or learn, or what requirements I would have to meet in order to come to their weekly public meetings. He said that I only needed a "sincere desire to come there". I went. But I am not sure I had such a sincere desire, because I don't know what a sincere desire is like to begin with. I went there a few times, and it occured to me that I would have to figure ou what it is that I really believe, what is it that I really am -a theist or an atheist or something else- if I am to continue going there.

Maybe take a look at things simply, try not to look for the answers to those questions. The truth must already be there, and the point of knowledge is to understand the truth. There are some things we must accept on faith, and that goes for everybody, atheist and theist alike.

Not to make this about me - but my point is that it seems important to know what one really is - whether one is a theist or an atheist or something else.

Theist = belief in God
Atheist= non belief in God
Maybe you're an in-betweeny. Have you ever thought about that?

Do you think I am trying to defeat you?

I would be disappointed if you wasn't. ;)

jan .
 
ardena said:
Absence, meaning the belief is not there, hence, you do not believe in God.
There can be no uphill struggle to understand that.
Tell that to the general run of theists on this forum.
 
Fraggle Rocker,

The fundamental theory of science is that the natural universe is a closed system; that there is no supernatural universe full of whimsical creatures who meddle with our lives out of pride, selfishness, anger and paternalism. This is the cornerstone of the scientific method, and in good scientific fashion it is recursive.

Have there been studies of such creatures, and supernatural universes?
No?
Then wtf are you talking about?

Like all scientific theories, this one can never be proven true.

Good point.

We then apply the Rule of Laplace, another cornerstone of science: Extraordinary assertions must be accompanied by extraordinary evidence before anyone is obliged to treat them with respect.

The thing is, it's not extraordinary.

Assertions of the existence of supernatural phenomena are accompanied, if at all, by the most pathetic evidence. But the existence of gods goes far beyond that because those assertions are accompanied by no evidence at all.

What would you accept as evidence of the one God described in every scripture?

People who believe in gods do so because humans are programmed to believe in gods; it's in our DNA.

Another theory?


Those archetypal kinds of beliefs simply feel true, and that makes those beliefs stronger than any beliefs based on learning, reasoning and experience. People rarely consider where archetypal beliefs come from, so they never wonder where the evidence for them is. They just assume it's there somewhere and they're comfortable with that.

Really?

The rest of us aren't. If you're going to tell us a fairy tale, you'd better have a thousand trustworthy witnesses with videocameras. Or just one, and we'll at least finally be obligated to treat your fairy tale with respect, even if we still find it to be just a fairy tale.

I'll bear that in mind. Thanks for your input.

jan.
 
What is this ? A theist arguing that atheists do not believe in god rather than believe god does not exist ? :confused:
 
It's quite simple; one does not need to know everything there is to know about a car, in order to understand the essential reason for its existence.

This is backwards.
To know what is essential, one has to know the whole, for only in reference to the whole can one assess what is essential.
However (and this seems to be what you have in mind), one can take on faith or gamble/risk and this way get to know the essential.
Knowledge of the essential might thus be the same in both approaches, but the ways this knowledge has been arrived at, is different.

The difference between the two is practical: The first approach would take forever (as there is no way around getting to know everything, you'd have to get to know everything which would take forever). The second approach might work in the first attempt, or after many mistakes, or take forever.

There is no guarantee that the seeker will find; but his chances are better with the second approach than with the first one.

So, strictly formally seen, acting on faith or gambling/risking is better than trying to figure everything out for oneself from scratch.

So I sort of agree with you on the above-quoted point.


Another thing to notice is, the caller never changes.

But he calls different names ... This is because the caller is entangled into material nature?


If you love ice cream, and all your life you were being told you hate ice cream, what happens when you taste it.

Oddly enough, I've had a similar experience recently. My whole life, I've had this idea that eating spicy food, especially eating food seasoned with black pepper is bad and riles up the senses. I felt bad whenever I ate anything spicy, especially when seasoned with black pepper. Then recently, I've learned to make a sauce of green peppers, tomatoes, ground red paprika, and soy bits, seasoned with salt and black pepper. Served with mashed potatoes or softly cooked and mild rice. My, is that yummy! And my passions didn't get riled up, even though I was eating such spicy food.
It was a really strange experience, very pleasurable, but strange.


The confusion is most probably due to the term "atheist".
If it were possible to be atheist to ice cream, it would only mean you don't believe, the essence, is what it actually is, to you.

"Belief" isn't very reliable, is it? We believe all sorts of things ... and then after some time, we believe some other things ...


Maybe take a look at things simply, try not to look for the answers to those questions. The truth must already be there, and the point of knowledge is to understand the truth. There are some things we must accept on faith, and that goes for everybody, atheist and theist alike.

What do you think - which things should be accepted on faith, and which should not? What would be the criteria for such acceptance?


Theist = belief in God
Atheist= non belief in God
Maybe you're an in-betweeny. Have you ever thought about that?

Do you mean that a spirit-soul can possibly be an "in-betweeny"??

1. What scriptoral reference do you have for that suggestion?
2. It appears that an "in-betweeny" cannot be truly happy, ever. If a spirit- soul is an "in-betweeny" and the spirit-soul is part an parcel of God, and an "in-betweeny" can never be truly happy, then parts of God are never truly happy. -??


Do you think I am trying to defeat you?

I would be disappointed if you wasn't.

I want to be enlightened sooner than you!! ;)
 
I think there is a difference between the atheist who claims to be an atheist "because there is no evidence of god(s)" and the atheist who is an atheist because he thinks God hates him, and so on.

Huh??? In order to believe that a god hates you, you must first believe that he/she/it exists. In which case you can hardly be an atheist.

People who call themselves "atheists" are not exempt from holding mutually exlcusive stances. :eek:


Atheism is not necessarily a decision.

In that case, if a person did not make a decision to be atheist, such an atheist is not rational about his atheism. His atheism is merely a matter of indoctrination/habit/conditioning.


There are those of us who were raised in atheistic households. I never heard of religion until I was about seven, and I laughed my head off when some kid in school started telling me about it. I assumed it was a joke. My parents explained that it was more like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, and that little boy's parents had chosen to tell him that fairytale instead of the ones I heard. I was several years older when I had the horrible realization that there are also adults who believe in this particular fairy tale. I spent several more years wondering why no one had ever had the decency to tell them the truth. Then when I became old enough to take it upon myself to tell one of them the truth, I witnessed the damage that is done by allowing a child to grow up believing in a fairy tale. He can't bear the thought that it's not true because it has become part of his identity.

Just like you are the child who has become an adult who "can't bear the thought that /atheism/ is not true because it has become part of his identity".
It goes both ways.
Unless, of course, you wish to assert omniscience.


But when they run into one of us with who sees the god motif as a metaphor rather than a literal description of how the universe works, they are uncomfortable. Our ability to see that in the first place means we have clearer vision than theirs, so we are superior to them in at least one way, and they can't tolerate that.

Wow. What an ego. The way to think you are wonderful is by portraying others as stupid.


Yet despite this zeal, it has never been falsified. No evidence, experimentation or reasoning has ever been discovered or developed to challenge the notion that natural laws are all there is, and that everything derives from them.

You conceive it as a closed system, this is why you can not conceive that there could be any evidence to the contrary, and even if there would be, you would interpet it in line with the notion of the closed system.


Like all scientific theories, this one can never be proven true.

And yet you have the nerve to speak truisms such as:

But when they run into one of us with who sees the god motif as a metaphor rather than a literal description of how the universe works, they are uncomfortable. Our ability to see that in the first place means we have clearer vision than theirs, so we are superior to them in at least one way, and they can't tolerate that.

and

People who believe in gods do so because humans are programmed to believe in gods; it's in our DNA.


We then apply the Rule of Laplace, another cornerstone of science: Extraordinary assertions must be accompanied by extraordinary evidence before anyone is obliged to treat them with respect.

Nobody can make you treat any claims with respect. But this will not make those claims go away, nor the people who make those claims. You have to live with them, somehow. And so far, you have shown that the only recourse you have is to your own declarations of grandeur and superiority. For someone seeking to be a decent scientist, this is one really shabby way to be.
You are setting an ugly example.


And don't try to accuse me of an ad hominem: Your whole line of argument against theism is based on an ad hominem. The science you bring in is just feathers to mask that what you really are in it for is a battle of wills.
 
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