What does God want?

If Bob displays the exact same behaviours one would expect from a person who advocates not-x is true, one has to wonder whether he is merely layering his actual position behind a cover of deception to secure some sort of advantage.
They wouldn't have the exact same behaviour - in that if you ask one "do you believe not-x is true?" one would say yes, the other no.
For instance if Mary was advocating that the water from a particular water well is very healthy, yet Bob made specific endeavours to never drink from it, publicly cast doubt on the validity of Mary's position to vouch for the authority of drinking water and was stacked to the hilt with vocal opinions on what Mary was really up to or on about when she was talking of water quality etc etc ..... one has to wonder whether it is actually meaningful to define Bob's position as essentially lying outside of "not-x is true".
Sure, some Bobs may well have the additional belief that not-x is true. And what's more, some of those may be more active in pushing their belief that not-x is true than others.. But it is not necessary. Some may be private in their belief (or lack of) that not-x is true such that the issue of God has no influence on their life. The less influence it has, the more aligned their behaviours become. Some believers may also be in this category, although it is rarer. But at its core, I see no behavioural difference between belief in no-God, and simple lack of belief. Nor, in that regard, in belief in God. It all depends upon the influence that the issue has in your life. Just as with any issue.
 
If geobobs is an atheist, you've performed no such task.
Atheist: lacks belief.
Stop asserting that atheism is only "belief that God does not exist".
But sure, if gebobs is a strong atheist, if he believes that God does not exist and has indeed claimed as much, then I have not shown what I claimed as it related specifically to him, only in principle.
 
So Anne "has belief" in God, and Bob "has nobelief" in God. Would he have an opposing view?
He may have a view that is incompatible with God existing, but he may not. Unless you can establish what his view is, I wouldn't say you could say it is an opposing view. It might be complementary, or at least compatible.
No. You're clearly the one with a blinkered view on atheism.
Whatever, Jan. Whatever. :rolleyes:
Yes, I could see how not believing God exists could be a good reason to not believe in God. But why obfuscate? Why not just tell it like it is?
And what do you think "it is"? That they don't just lack the belief that God exists but actually believe that God doesn't exist? Is that what you think they should tell?
If so, you're rather demonstrating my point with regard your blinkered view of atheism.
What is the difference in meaning?
You know full well, Jan. Atheism is the lack of belief that God exists, not only the belief that God does not exist.
You'd have to point out the subtleties, for us to find out.
The differences have been pointed out to you almost ad nauseam, Jan.

But it's already got to that point where it's clear you have no intention to discuss.
And I'm trying hard not to feed trolls.
 
And I'm trying hard not to feed trolls.

:) try harder

Here's a thought bubble

For ONE day only each year - designate it NO FEEDING TROLLS DAY

On the designated day all suspect Trolls are put on Iggy for 24 hours

No restrictions on returning to take up where you left off

:)
 
He may have a view that is incompatible with God existing, but he may not.

What does that mean?

Unless you can establish what his view is, I wouldn't say you could say it is an opposing view. It might be complementary, or at least compatible.

OK, so we can't establish his "view''.
But Anne has belief in God, is opposed to Bob's has no belief in God. Right?

And what do you think "it is"? That they don't just lack the belief that God exists but actually believe that God doesn't exist? Is that what you think they should tell?
If so, you're rather demonstrating my point with regard your blinkered view of atheism.

Here's where I'm at...

Anne believes in God.
Bob doesn't believe in God.

How is it they are not in opposition?

You know full well, Jan. Atheism is the lack of belief that God exists, not only the belief that God does not exist.

An atheist is a person who does not believe in God. Lack of existence in God, or belief that God does not exist, are the reasons why.

What is the point of lacking belief in God's existence, or believe God does not exist? If they are not simply reasons to not believe in God.

The differences have been pointed out to you almost ad nauseam, Jan.

No they haven't, or I wouldn't be asking.
However you can point them out now for the world to see. And if I ask again you can point me back to...

Thread - What does God want?
Post no. - whatever

I will make a note of it, on my phone for future reference.

But it's already got to that point where it's clear you have no intention to discuss.

I'm always ready to discuss, Sarkus.
Are you though?
You always seem to be running away. :rolleyes:

Just lay it out, mate.

Jan.
 
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Atheist: lacks belief.
Stop asserting that atheism is only "belief that God does not exist".

I'm not.
I'm asserting atheists do not believe in God, and anything else is simply a/the reason. Am I mistaken? If I am, please explain.

But sure, if gebobs is a strong atheist, if he believes that God does not exist and has indeed claimed as much, then I have not shown what I claimed as it related specifically to him, only i

I could care less what reason geobobs give. The result is, geobobs does not believe in God (if he is atheist).

Am I correct, or am I mistaken??

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena:
You said...

"There's no practical difference, according to you. All gods are God, according to you."

You don't see the difference between that and...

all gods are references to, or aspects of, the one God.
No, I don't see any practical difference. If you believe that all gods are aspects of God - which is what you appear to be saying here - then I see no problem with my initial summary of your position - all gods are God, according to you.

You appear to be taking issue with something in what I wrote, but you don't say what.
 
No, I don't see any practical difference. If you believe that all gods are aspects of God - which is what you appear to be saying here - then I see no problem with my initial summary of your position - all gods are God, according to you.

Would you say an annexe is the building it is associated with?

Jan.
 
Feeding time at the zoo...

What does that mean?
If I believe X and someone else believes does not believe X but believes Y, but Y is incompatible with X, then Y necessarily assets that X is false.
If I believe X and someone else does not believe X but believes Y, but Y is compatible with X then belief Y says nothing about belief X.
OK, so we can't establish his "view''.
But Anne has belief in God, is opposed to Bob's has no belief in God. Right?
Not necessarily, no. How many times do I have to explain it to you, and how many times are you going to ignore the explanation? Until you know what Bob's view is you can not say whether his view is opposed to Anne's. As explained, it could be complementary, it could be incompatible. Only if it is incompatible is Bob's belief in opposition to Anne's.
Here's where I'm at...

Anne believes in God.
Bob doesn't believe in God.

How is it they are not in opposition?
The same way that playing on a football team is not in opposition to someone playing rugby. They are simply playing different games. Anne is playing rugby on the side of "belief in God". Bob is not in that team. The team opposing Anne's belief is "believe God doesn't exist". If Bob doesn't hold that belief then he isn't in that opposition team. Instead Bob may or may not decide to play a different sport entirely
If you think Bob, by not playing rugby, is in opposition to Anne's rugby team, then you must surely think the fans in attendance are also in opposition to her team, along with the team she is playing against?
An atheist is a person who does not believe in God.
We've been through this many times, Jan. Atheism is the lack of belief that God (or god/s) exists. It is unlikely that a person who does not believe God exists would believe in God. But not believing in God does not necessarily mean you lack belief that God exists. Deists, for example, believe in God (the "cause of all") but do not believe in God.
Lack of existence in God, or belief that God does not exist, are the reasons why.
No, atheism is simply the lack of belief that God (or god/s) exists. Simple as that.
What is the point of lacking belief in God's existence, or believe God does not exist? If they are not simply reasons to not believe in God.
Atheists also don't go to Catholic mass. Surely by your argument this is how we must define the atheist? No, of course not. They lack belief in the existence of God. As a result they also lack belief in God, and they don't go to Catholic mass. But then many people who believe God to exist do not believe in God. They're called deists.
No they haven't, or I wouldn't be asking.
However you can point them out now for the world to see. And if I ask again you can point me back to...

Thread - What does God want?
Post no. - whatever

I will make a note of it, on my phone for future reference.
Are you claiming that noone, not me, not JamesR, not baldeee... that noone has explained to you numerous times over the years the difference between the strong atheist position and the weak atheist position? The difference between believing that God does not exist, and simply not having the belief that God does exist?
Answer honestly, Jan.
I'm always ready to discuss, Sarkus.
I have yet to see sign of it.
Are you though?
You always seem to be running away.
I prefer a bit of honesty in those I discuss with, so excuse me if I walk away from you when you continually fall below the minimum requirement.
Just lay it out, mate.
Okay: you're a dishonest troll. Is that laid out sufficiently for you?
 
If I believe X and someone else believes does not believe X but believes Y, but Y is incompatible with X, then Y necessarily assets that X is false.

What do you mean by "and someone else believes does not believe X"?

You said... "He may have a view that is incompatible with God existing, but he may not. What do you me by this? Preferably without the XY stuff.

Not necessarily, no. How many times do I have to explain it to you, and how many times are you going to ignore the explanation?

Your explanation thus far looks like gobeldigook. Explain it in the way I am asking it. That way I'll get it.

Until you know what Bob's view is you can not say whether his view is opposed to Anne's.

I wasn't talking about views, the second time around. I asked...

... Anne believes in God.
Bob doesn't believe in God.
How is their beliefs not in opposition?

The same way that playing on a football team is not in opposition to someone playing rugby. They are simply playing different games.

Anne plays football.
Bob plays rugby.
How does this analogy fit?

Bob is not in that team. The team opposing Anne's belief is "believe God doesn't exist". If Bob doesn't hold that belief then he isn't in that opposition team. Instead Bob may or may not decide to play a different sport entirely
If you think Bob, by not playing rugby, is in opposition to Anne's rugby team, then you must surely think the fans in attendance are also in opposition to her team, along with the team she is playing against?

There are no teams, or sides, Sarkus. Just opposing views regarding belief in God.

Anne could believe Brazil will win the world Cup, and Bob could believe that they won't win the world cup
They could have their reasons/views, on why the believe the way they do. But there beliefs are opposing. Now if we replace Brazil with God. How is that any different?

But not believing in God does not necessarily mean you lack belief that God exists. Deists, for example, believe in God (the "cause of all") but do not believe in God.

Believing that God does not exist, or lacking belief in God, are reasons why you don't believe in God.

It seems like you're trying to turn it around, so that the existence of God is in question. While that makes sense in an atheist world view, it doesn't make sense overall.

Atheism only exists because of theism, and it is opposed to theism. You can't go rogue on this. Everything adds up to not believing in God.

No, atheism is simply the lack of belief that God (or god/s) exists. Simple as that.

Why do these points exist in the first place?

Atheists also don't go to Catholic mass.

:?

As a result they also lack belief in God,

No. Not as a result.
They don't believe in God, because there is no Go for them to believe in. Or the deny God, or, whatever.

But then many people who believe God to exist do not believe in God. They're called deists.

What are you on about?
If you believe God created everything, then left the scene, you believe in God., albeit to that extent. There is as much variation in theism as there are people.
And that includes atheism.

You could look at atheists, as theists without God. But that's another thread, which I am contemplating. ;)

Answer honestly, Jan.

Not in a simply way. More in that gobeldigook style in the 1st paragraph.
Pure obfuscation.
Explain it in simple terms, so we can easily progress.

Okay: you're a dishonest troll. Is that laid out sufficiently for you?

What are you on about?
Just answer the question already.
Nutter! :D

Jan
 
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Would you say an annexe is the building it is associated with?
If you believe there is an annexe, then I take it you believe there is a building.

I take it that your point here is that you believe that Yahweh and Allah and Shiva and Zeus are not God, but only annexes of God, as it were.

If you believe in the Zeus annexe, then you believe in the God building.

I still don't think that I have misrepresented your position regarding gods/God, as far as I can tell. And I don't think it stops with gods, either. You also hold that you and I are, ourselves, aspects of (annexes to) God, do you not? Along with the trees and the rocks and the Doritos.
 
I take it that your point here is that you believe that Yahweh and Allah and Shiva and Zeus are not God, but only annexes of God, as it were.

When it comes to this stuff James, you should just listen, and take it in. That way may learn something. :)

If you believe in the Zeus annexe, then you believe in the God building

We'll take it one step at a time James.
Gods (lower case) are different aspects of God.

And I don't think it stops with gods, either. You also hold that you and I are, ourselves, aspects of (annexes to) God,

That's good.

Along with the trees and the rocks and the Doritos.

Now you're just trying to be funny.
If you want to know where I am coming from, read the Bhagavad Gita. Then let's discuss.

James
 
What do you mean by "and someone else believes does not believe X"?
Did you not do algebra at school, Jan?? Or am I presuming that you have yet reached that level?
I clearly said that "if I believe X" - thus what I mean by "and someone else does not believe X" is that someone else does not hold the belief that I hold. Let X be anything you want, such as "that the last dog I saw was white". Thus my example is that I believe that the last dog I saw is white, while someone else does not have that belief. They don't necessarily believe it is a different colour, they may just not know, and thus be unable to believe one way or the other.
You said... "He may have a view that is incompatible with God existing, but he may not. What do you me by this? Preferably without the XY stuff.
If beliefs are incompatible then they are mutually exclusive... they can not both be simultaneously true.
E.g. you believe God exists, someone else believes God to not exist. They are incompatible beliefs, mutually exclusive.
However, if you believe God exists and someone else believes that the origin of the universe is too complex for him to know about, then these beliefs are not mutually exclusive. Both can be simultaneously true.
Your explanation thus far looks like gobeldigook. Explain it in the way I am asking it. That way I'll get it.
You're asking for it in English, Jan. Other than that you haven't specified any particular style of explanation. How would you like it? Backward? In words of one syllable?
I wasn't talking about views, the second time around. I asked...

... Anne believes in God.
Bob doesn't believe in God.
How is their beliefs not in opposition?
And I explained. An opposing belief is one that is incompatible with the other. If they are not mutually exclusive then they are merely different beliefs but not in opposition.
Anne plays football.
Bob plays rugby.
How does this analogy fit?
For beliefs to be in opposition they must be answering the same question with different answers. If you're playing the same sport you're at least answering the same question. If you're playing different sports then you're not answering the same question - thus can't be in opposition.
There are no teams, or sides, Sarkus. Just opposing views regarding belief in God.
Analogy, Jan. Analogy.
Anne could believe Brazil will win the world Cup, and Bob could believe that they won't win the world cup
Mutually exclusive, thus in opposition.
They could have their reasons/views, on why the believe the way they do. But there beliefs are opposing. Now if we replace Brazil with God. How is that any different?
Believing that Brazil won't win the world cup is very different to simply not having a belief that Brazil will win the world cup. Please try not to confuse the two.
Believing that God does not exist, or lacking belief in God, are reasons why you don't believe in God.
Sure, but atheism is simply the lack of belief in God. That then results in the atheist not believing in God.
It seems like you're trying to turn it around, so that the existence of God is in question. While that makes sense in an atheist world view, it doesn't make sense overall.
Makes perfect sense to those that don't start with the a priori assumption that God exists.
Atheism only exists because of theism, and it is opposed to theism. You can't go rogue on this. Everything adds up to not believing in God.
I don't deny that atheists don't believe in God. It would be quite silly to not have the belief that something exists yet believe in them anyway. But since there are people who believe God exists yet don't believe in God, namely deists, you are committing the fallacy of affirming the consequent. An atheist does not believe in God, sure, but not everyone who does not believe in God is an atheist. Thus you cannot define atheism by their non-belief in God.
Why do these points exist in the first place?
Points??
Atheists lack belief in the existence of God. This leads them to not have belief in God. It also leads them to not going to Catholic mass.
You want to define the atheist by one of the effects of their lack of belief in the existence of God, yet you don't define them by another effect (that they don't go to Catholic mass).
No. Not as a result.
They don't believe in God, because there is no Go for them to believe in. Or the deny God, or, whatever.
You can keep repeating this until you are blue in the face, yet when every atheist here tells you that you are wrong, why do you still choose not to listen to them? They have explained it to you repeatedly. You still don't listen. You still refuse to change the way you think about atheists, the way you define atheism. It's truly pathetic of you.
What are you on about?
If you believe God created everything, then left the scene, you believe in God., albeit to that extent.
No, deists don't believe in God. Not in the way you have previously tried to explain, with capitalised IN. They believe God created the universe and left. Nothing to believe in. But they do believe God exists.
There is as much variation in theism as there are people.
And that includes atheism.
Sure, but deists aren't theists.
You could look at atheists, as theists without God. But that's another thread, which I am contemplating.
You could look at atheists that way, if you want to insult them, and if you want to continue to ignore everything they say.
Not in a simply way. More in that gobeldigook style in the 1st paragraph.
Pure obfuscation.
Explain it in simple terms, so we can easily progress.
FFS, Jan. You can't even be honest with that one question. First you say that noone has ever explained it to you, ever, in the many years you've been on this site. Now you say that you've only been explained in a manner too complex for you to understand, that they have been obfuscating with their explanation? So not only are you dishonest but you once again insult every person who has tried to explain it to you.
What are you on about?
You wanted me to lay it out for you Jan. I'll do so again: you are a dishonest troll. And nothing in your latest post has done anything to quell that assessment.

Feeding time over.
 
They wouldn't have the exact same behaviour - in that if you ask one "do you believe not-x is true?" one would say yes, the other no.
So then one could examine their behaviour, and see if they are saying more with their actions than their words.

Sure, some Bobs may well have the additional belief that not-x is true. And what's more, some of those may be more active in pushing their belief that not-x is true than others.. But it is not necessary. Some may be private in their belief (or lack of) that not-x is true such that the issue of God has no influence on their life. The less influence it has, the more aligned their behaviours become. Some believers may also be in this category, although it is rarer. But at its core, I see no behavioural difference between belief in no-God, and simple lack of belief. Nor, in that regard, in belief in God. It all depends upon the influence that the issue has in your life. Just as with any issue.
It appears that you are simply conflating increased enthusiasm with the removal of the word "agnostic". It doesn't work like that.

Calling oneself an agnostic atheist would make sense if persons who identify as such were not totally dumfounded when asked to explain what new activities and/or behaviours they might adopt if they ever dropped the "agnostic" title. It appears, at least as far as agnostic atheists are concerned, they are already acting on the deepest spectrum of atheism. If there is no meaningful behavioural distinction to pair to the doubt within agnosticism, their claim is sophistry .... sophistry because agnosticism is philosophical defensible whereas hard atheism is not.
IOW identifying as such an agnostic atheism is about having a philosophical position to retreat to after launching an attack on theism is ("what God/scripture/saintliness really is")

IOW the reason you cannot identify any distinguishing behaviours beyond a parsed sentence, is because as far as the activities of your body, mind and all other words (words used to explain what religion/God is "really" about) are concerned, they are completely nondifferent from those who believe God does not exist.
The agnostic title becomes meaningless because you cannot explain it in relation to any behaviours of doubt.
 
Believing that Brazil won't win the world cup is very different to simply not having a belief that Brazil will win the world cup. Please try not to confuse the two.
Let's run with this example for a moment.

Alice believes that Brazil will win the World Cup.
Bob believes that Brazil won't win the World Cup.
Charlie does not believe that Brazil will win the World Cup.

Is Bob's position the same as Charlie's? Is Charlie's belief incompatible with Alice's? Is Bob's belief incompatible with Alice's?

Answers: no, no and yes.

Let's say Bob believes that France will win the World Cup. Logically, then, Bob also believes that Brazil will not win the World Cup. Alice and Bob cannot both be correct simultaneously, so they hold opposing, incompatible beliefs.

Charlie doesn't really follow soccer, or he hasn't thought too hard about which team might win, or maybe he thinks that one of France or England or Brazil will win. Charlie does not hold the belief that Brazil will win the World Cup. But neither does he hold the belief that Brazil won't win the World Cup. Charlie's belief is compatible with Alice's. It is possible that Brazil will win the world Cup, in which case Charlie might say "Well, I didn't believe that would happen, but it was always a possibility". Charlies belief is also compatible with Bob's belief. If France wins, then Charlie might say "Well, I never said Brazil would win in the first place!"

In case this analogy is not clear enough for some, here Alice represents theism, Bob is hard atheism and Charlie is soft atheism.

Agnosticism is a different question all together. That's not about the belief per se, but about what a person will accept as reasonable grounds on which to hold the belief in the first place.

Alice believes that Brazil will win. That could be because she has solid reasons to believe that Brazil is a great team in good form, well prepared etc. Or it could be just because Alice so badly wants Brazil to win that her faith leads removes all doubt from her point of view that the win will happen. The first situation, in the analogy, would make Alice an agnostic theist - the belief is supposedly based on evidence. The second situation would make Alice a gnostic theist, where the belief is held on faith, regardless of evidence.

Bob, like Alice, could be an agnostic atheist, holding the belief in Brazil's downfall on the basis of what he considers to be good evidence, or he could be a gnostic atheist, believing in Brazil's loss on the basis of faith that Brazil's team is no good (say).

Charlie is no different from Bob or Alice in this regard. He too could be either a gnostic or an agnostic atheist, according to his personal criteria for forming beliefs about who will win. If he does not share Alice's belief that Brazil will win because he doesn't think there's enough evidence to be confident in that outcome, then his soft atheism is agnostic. If he does not share Alice's belief because he holds a superstitious belief that South American teams will most likely fare badly at this World Cup, then his soft atheism is a gnostic one.

It appears that you are simply conflating increased enthusiasm with the removal of the word "agnostic". It doesn't work like that.
I think it does work like that, in practice, most of the time. Most theists are gnostic theists. They aren't usually too fussed with inconsequential matters like the amount of evidence there is for God. Such issues are secondary, or considered irrelevant. Just look at Jan if you want a fairly typical example of the type. Often, the degree of enthusiasm correlates more or less proportionally with the degree of gnosticism.

Agnostics are far more picky about matters of evidence, because to them the evidence matters. Their enthusiasm tends to correlate with the amount of evidence they see, rather than with the baseline strength of their predisposition to believe.

Calling oneself an agnostic atheist would make sense if persons who identify as such were not totally dumfounded when asked to explain what new activities and/or behaviours they might adopt if they ever dropped the "agnostic" title.
Dropping the "agnostic" title would mean adopting a visibly more faith-based approach to the belief and worrying less about the evidence for or against theism. You should have little trouble imagining the kinds of behaviours that would go along with such a change in outlook, but I can help if you need it.

It appears, at least as far as agnostic atheists are concerned, they are already acting on the deepest spectrum of atheism.
The deepest spectrum, if you want to use that terminology, would be strong atheism, as opposed to weak atheism. It wouldn't have any necessary relationship to the degree of agnosticism. Atheism is about belief. Agnosticism is about one's attitude to evidence.

If there is no meaningful behavioural distinction to pair to the doubt within agnosticism, their claim is sophistry .... sophistry because agnosticism is philosophical defensible whereas hard atheism is not.
Agnostic hard (or soft) atheism is defensible, as is agnostic theism. The positions that I think are philosophically the most problematic are the gnostic atheisms and gnostic theism, because the gnostics have the problem of trying to defend faith, while philosophy relies fundamentally on reason.

The agnostic title becomes meaningless because you cannot explain it in relation to any behaviours of doubt.
The relevant behaviours seem obvious to me. The gnostic has very little doubt, because the gnostic has faith. The agnostic, on the other hand, demands evidence for belief.
 
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So then one could examine their behaviour, and see if they are saying more with their actions than their words.
You could. So how do you intend to separate out, from their behaviour, the agnostic atheists from the non-agnostic atheists?
It appears that you are simply conflating increased enthusiasm with the removal of the word "agnostic". It doesn't work like that.
I'm doing no such thing. Agnosticism is a matter of whether one considers something knowable or not, not the degree to which something is believed or not.
Calling oneself an agnostic atheist would make sense if persons who identify as such were not totally dumfounded when asked to explain what new activities and/or behaviours they might adopt if they ever dropped the "agnostic" title.
It is more a matter of how one thinks about a subject, what leads one to atheism, rather than what they subsequently do once they lack belief. Practically they seem almost indistinguishable. But then I'm not a strong atheist, I only lead my own life, so is it any wonder I'm struggling to find something practical that the weak and strong agnostic do differently.
To that end you still haven't provided any practical concrete example that belief that God exists brings to the table, rather than any religious affiliation may bring.
It appears, at least as far as agnostic atheists are concerned, they are already acting on the deepest spectrum of atheism.
Well, they lack belief that God exists, sure. So in that sense they are as atheist as any other atheist. Do they go round advocating that God doesn't exist? No. But then only a minority of strong atheists actually do that. It isn't required that one does that to be atheist.
If there is no meaningful behavioural distinction to pair to the doubt within agnosticism, their claim is sophistry .... sophistry because agnosticism is philosophical defensible whereas hard atheism is not.
IOW identifying as such an agnostic atheism is about having a philosophical position to retreat to after launching an attack on theism is ("what God/scripture/saintliness really is")
How is it sophistry (a) if it's defensible - whereas surely a fallacious argument is not (and sophistry is the use of fallacious arguments); and (b) if it is their actual honest position, not one held for any other reason than it is their genuinely held position. There is no attempt to deceive, no attempt to be anything other than what it is: their philosophical position on the question of God.
As for launching an attack on theism, sure some do, so go argue with them about their own philosophy, their own particular sophistry. But don't confuse that with the actual agnostic atheist position, honestly held.
IOW the reason you cannot identify any distinguishing behaviours beyond a parsed sentence, is because as far as the activities of your body, mind and all other words (words used to explain what religion/God is "really" about) are concerned, they are completely nondifferent from those who believe God does not exist.
The agnostic title becomes meaningless because you cannot explain it in relation to any behaviours of doubt.
How do you suppose one behaves doubtfully? Am I meant to dither about every action? Am I meant to walk past a church and always ask "Hmmm, maybe I should pop in there... i'm just not sure".

I don't play golf. I don't believe it is a great game. I lack belief that it is a great game. Do I believe it is a bad game? No. I just don't play it, and have no real interest in it. According to you I am in the same bracket as those who think it a bad game.
Sure, some who think it a bad game will be vocal about how bad it is. Many won't. They will just avoid it. As do I. For different reasons.
But if you can't comprehend how different thought processes can result in the same practical action for different reasons... ?

And as said from the start, I can only tell you what I think from my perspective as an agnostic atheist. I'm not a strong atheist. I can't really tell you how my actions will be different, but my estimations, thinking as I do at the moment, are that nothing would change. Not even if I started to believe that God did exist.
Who knows, maybe if I ever become a strong atheist, or a theist, I might have a different perspective and know exactly how my actions have changed.
 
They aren't usually too fussed with inconsequential matters like the amount of evidence there is for God.

I'm afraid you're mistaken. Theists are satisfied with the cosmological, teleological evidence, and so on.
The problem is, you cannot specify what you would regard as evidence of God.
Atheists are the ones who are not fussed about evidence. You just reject, and deny.

Atheism is about belief. Agnosticism is about one's attitude to evidence.

It is about pretending to lean toward evidence, and ducking from the responsibility of backing their claims.
You only have to study every atheist in this thread. They are all strong atheist, until it comes to explaining their beliefs, then they cower from responsibility. Pushing the onus on the theist, when the theist has already given a rational explanation of their belief, and shown the irrational behaviour of the atheist.

Dropping the "agnostic" title would mean adopting a visibly more faith-based approach to the belief and worrying less about the evidence for or against theism.

And that is all atheists have, faith in their assertions. No evidence at all.

As for launching an attack on theism, sure some do, so go argue with them about their own philosophy, their own particular sophistry. But don't confuse that with the actual agnostic atheist position, honestly held.

Attacking theism, is modern atheism. It has no independent values of it's own.
Just look at this thread as an example.:rolleyes:

jan.
 
Atheists are the ones who are not fussed about evidence. You just reject, and deny.
I decided to take one more look at your posts and they are just as disingenious as I remember.

Atheists "reject" because there IS no evidence.....and you are unable to provide it!!!

It has nothing to do with "denial". Denial requires evidence. You have none!!!
 
Did you not do algebra at school, Jan?? Or am I presuming that you have yet reached that level?

We're not talking about algerbra.
Just say what you mean about the question put to you.

"if I believe X" - thus what I mean by "and someone else does not believe X" is that someone else does not hold the belief that I hold. Let X be anything you want, such as "that the last dog I saw was white". Thus my example is that I believe that the last dog I saw is white, while someone else does not have that belief. They don't necessarily believe it is a different colour, they may just not know, and thus be unable to believe one way or the other.

That's mumbo jumbo.
Just answer the questions put to you. If we are discussing God, then let's talk about God.

E.g. you believe God exists, someone else believes God to not exist.

Nonsense. People don't talk like that in everyday life.
They will either say I believe in God, or not, or I believe God exists, or not.
Eg. Do you believe in God? Yes. Do you believe in God? No

You're asking for it in English, Jan.

In plain English, yes.
The questions have been put to you in plain English.

And I explained. An opposing belief is one that is incompatible with the other.

Obfuscation.

Analogy, Jan. Analogy.

Anne believes in God.
Bob doesn't believe in God.
How is their beliefs not in opposition?

Atheists lack belief in the existence of God. This leads them to not have belief in God. It also leads them to not going to Catholic mass.
You want to define the atheist by one of the effects of their lack of belief in the existence of God, yet you don't define them by another effect (that they don't go to Catholic mass).

Obfuscation.

You can keep repeating this until you are blue in the face, yet when every atheist here tells you that you are wrong, why do you still choose not to listen to them? They have explained it to you repeatedly. You still don't listen. You still refuse to change the way you think about atheists, the way you define atheism.

If this display is what you call explaining it, then you haven't explained it.
Nobody is asking for a math, or philosophy lecture. The questions are straight forward, in plain English, so you should answer them in the same manner.
If a theist wants to go there with you, they will ask the questions in a way that demands mathmatical, or philosophical treatment. If you feel you can best explain it in that way, then offer a simple summary.
This is how we can progress. Do you want to progress, or do you prefer to wallow in ambiguity.

No, deists don't believe in God.

If deists believe that God created the universe, then they believe in God. A theist is a person who believes in God.
Let's not mix theism up with religion.

You could look at atheists that way, if you want to insult them, and if you want to continue to ignore everything they say.

Looking at it, as one would look at any other phenomenon, is not an insult to atheists.
You just see it that way because you would prefer not to go there. To insult somebody (you should know), is to speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.

Now you say that you've only been explained in a manner too complex for you to understand,

I'm saying you're talking nonsense (thread).
There is a problem if you can't explain it in simple terms.
You try to keep up the ambiguity, so it can go on, and on.

Atheist talk with crooked tongue. :rolleyes:

you are a dishonest troll.

You're a liar.

jan.





 
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