What do you think of Islam?

I guess this thread was just inviting people to spit out their prejudices and trot out their stereotypes.

The fact is, Muslims and Christians and Buddhists and Atheists are all PEOPLE. Some people are ethical, some aren't. Some are compassionate, some are not. The members of all the groups mentioned are far too diverse and numerous to be able to be put into neat boxes, conveniently labelled and stashed away.

For any righteous Christian you care to name, it would be easy to come up with an equally righteous Muslim or Atheist. The same applies at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Stop looking at the trees and start looking at the wood, people.
 
But set thou thy face to the right Religion before there come from Allah the Day which there is no chance of averting: on that Day shall men be divided (in two). al-Qur'an 30:43

Are you threatining me?., ARE YOU THREATINING ME?., ARE YOU THREATINING ME?.

I don't take well to threats, this is why I chose to leave religious dogma, to the gullible pundits who believe such non-sense.

What I think of Islam, well the people are no better, then any other religion, the people have different types of Islam, the fundamentalist, are basically the same, fanatics, and zealots, basically it's the same as any other religious crap.

We are the only way
If you don't believe God, Allah, will burn you in hell for eternity
If you bring this airplane down, Allah will reward you with 15 virgins..
If you Kill this muslim God, will reward you with heaven..

Shiet man religious dogma is basically the sos with a different spin.



:bugeye:

Godless.
 
path said:
Expressing your dislike of a religion is a far cry from being forced to live as a second class citizen under religious rule. Secular society aims to treat everyone equally the rules protecting jews, muslims christians hindus buddhists and atheists are the same. The same is not true under sharia and that is a fact.



Umm......sorry path but that isnt a fact. I can only assume you mean second class citizen because of the tax that non muslims pay living in muslim lands.....well that can simply be explained by the fact that all muslims pay what is called Zakat which is an oblitory tax that goes to the homeless, poor, etc......Islam demands this so since non muslims dont have to pay Zakat(since they dont follow islam) they have to also pay a tax(just by a different name) so besides this example(which i have explained) please tell me how Jews, Christians etc are treated as 2nd class citizens
 
Why do all these nutters keep arguing over who invented god? Was it Marx who said religion is the opium of the masses?

I think all orginised religion is rubbish, but islam is by far the most evil. Hopefully one day all religion will be eradicated, and we can advance as a race.
 
surenderer said:
Umm......sorry path but that isnt a fact. I can only assume you mean second class citizen because of the tax that non muslims pay living in muslim lands.....well that can simply be explained by the fact that all muslims pay what is called Zakat which is an oblitory tax that goes to the homeless, poor, etc......Islam demands this so since non muslims dont have to pay Zakat(since they dont follow islam) they have to also pay a tax(just by a different name) so besides this example(which i have explained) please tell me how Jews, Christians etc are treated as 2nd class citizens

Umm.....I wasn't refering to the tax I was refering to legal and religious rights.
 
path said:
Umm.....I wasn't refering to the tax I was refering to legal and religious rights.



My apologies then thats the argument that I hear most from my RL friends.....so what religious and legal rights does Islam deny others?
 
surenderer said:
My apologies then thats the argument that I hear most from my RL friends.....so what religious and legal rights does Islam deny others?

Basically you are officially a second class citizen many of the examples I am familiar with I have culled from history books (believe it or not I don't mark the places in books that may show an example of islamic rule which was less than just for non-muslims). I found an article that outlines alot of islamic law pertaining to non-muslims that seems like a decent summary, probably of deeper interest would be the books by muslim scholars that this was based upon the bibliography list is at the end.

Jizya historically has been an arbitrary affair depending upon the ruler and his disposition towards non-muslims, at times it was a truly heavy tax meant to make it more difficult to remain a non-muslim and humiliate the non-muslim (see quran 9.029) At other times the ruler was benevolent



Civic Laws
Zimmis and Muslims are subject to the same civic laws. They are to be treated alike in matters of honor, theft, adultery, murder, and damaging property. They have to be punished in accordance with the Islamic law regardless of their religious affiliation. Zimmis and Muslims alike are subject to Islamic laws in matters of civic business, financial transactions such as sales, leases, firms, establishment of companies, farms, securities, mortgages, and contracts. For instance, theft is punishable by cutting off the thief's hand whether he is a Muslim or a Christian. But when it comes to privileges, the Zimmis do not enjoy the same treatment. For instance, Zimmis are not issued licenses to carry weapons.

Marriage and Children
A Muslim male can marry a Zimmi girl, but a Zimmi man is not allowed to marry a Muslim girl. If a woman embraces Islam and wants to get married, her non-Muslim father does not have the authority to give her away to her bridegroom. She must be given away by a Muslim guardian.

If one parent is a Muslim, children must be raised as Muslims. If the father is a Zimmi and his wife converts to Islam, she must get a divorce; then she will have the right of custody of her child. Some fundamentalist schools indicate that a Muslim husband has the right to confine his Zimmi wife to her home and restrain her from going to her own house of worship.

Capital Punishment
The Hanifites believe that both Zimmis and Muslims must suffer the same Penalty for similar crimes. If a Muslim kills a Zimmi intentionally, he must be killed in return. The same applies to a Christian who kills a Muslim. But other schools of Law have different interpretations of Islamic law. The Shafi`ites declare that a Muslim who assassinates a Zimmi must not be killed, because it is not reasonable to equate a Muslim with a polytheist (Mushrik). In such a case, blood price must be paid. The penalty depends on the school of law adopted by the particular Islamic country where the crime or offense is committed. This illustrates the implication of different interpretations of the Islamic law based on the Hadith.

Each school attempts to document its legal opinion by referring to the Hadith or to an incident experienced by the Prophet or the "rightly guided" Caliphs.

The Witness of Zimmis
Zimmis cannot testify against Muslims. They can only testify against other Zimmis or Musta'min. Their oaths are not considered valid in an Islamic court. According to the Shari`a, a Zimmi is not even qualified to be under oath. Muraghi states bluntly, "The testimony of a Zimmi is not accepted because Allah - may He be exalted - said: `God will not let the infidels (kafir) have an upper hand over the believers'." A Zimmi, regarded as an infidel, cannot testify against any Muslim regardless of his moral credibility. If a Zimmi has falsely accused another Zimmi and was once punished, his credibility and integrity is tarnished and his testimony is no longer acceptable. One serious implication of this is that if one Muslim has committed a serious offense against another, witnessed by Zimmis only, the court will have difficulty deciding the case since the testimonies of Zimmis are not acceptable. Yet, this same Zimmi whose integrity is blemished, if he converts to Islam, will have his testimony accepted against the Zimmis and Muslims alike, because according to the Shari`a, "By embracing Islam he has gained a new credibility which would enable him to witness..." All he has to do is to utter the Islamic confession of faith before witnesses, and that will elevate him from being an outcast to being a respected Muslim enjoying all the privileges of a devout Muslim.

Personal Law
On personal matters of marriages, divorces, and inheritance, Zimmis are allowed to appeal to their own religious courts. Each Christian denomination has the right and authority to determine the outcome of each case. Zimmis are free to practice their own social and religious rites at home and in church without interference from the state, even in such matters as drinking wine, rearing pigs, and eating pork, as long as they do not sell them to Muslims. Zimmis are generally denied the right to appeal to an Islamic court in family matters, marriage, divorce, and inheritance. However, in the event a Muslim judge agrees to take such a case, the court must apply Islamic law.

Political Rights and Duties
The Islamic state is an ideological state, thus the head of the state inevitably must be a Muslim, because he is bound by the Shari`a to conduct and administer the state in accordance with the Qur'an and the Sunna. The function of his advisory council is to assist him in implementing the Islamic principles and adhering to them. Anyone who does not embrace Islamic ideology cannot be the head of state or a member of the council.

Mawdudi, aware of the requirements of modern society, seems to be more tolerant toward Zimmis. He says,

"In regard to a parliament or a legislature of the modern type which is considerably different from the advisory council in its traditional sense, this rule could be relaxed to allow non-Muslims to be members provided that it has been fully ensured in the constitution that no law which is repugnant to the Qur'an and the Sunna should be enacted, that the Qur'an and the Sunna should be the chief source of public law, and that the head of the state should necessarily be a Muslim."
Under these circumstances, the sphere of influence of non-Muslim minorities would be limited to matters relating to general problems of the country or to the interest of the minorities. Their participation should not damage the fundamental requirement of Islam. Mawdudi adds,

"It is possible to form a separate representative assembly for all non-Muslim groups in tbe capacity of a central agency. The membership and the voting rights of such an assembly will be confined to non-Muslims and they would be given the fullest freedom within its frame-work."
These views do not receive the approval of most other schools of the Shari`a which hold that non-Muslims are not allowed to assume any position which might bestow on them any authority over any Muslim. A position of sovereignty demands the implementation of Islamic ideology. It is alleged that a non-Muslim (regardless of his ability, sincerity, and loyalty to his country) cannot and would not work faithfully to achieve the ideological and political goals of Islam.

Business World
The political arena and the official public sectors are not the only area in which non-Muslims are not allowed to assume a position of authority. A Muslim employee who works in a company inquires in a letter "if it is permissible for a Muslim owner (of a company) to confer authority on a Christian over other Muslims? (Al-Muslim Weekly; Vol. 8; issue No. 418; Friday 2, 5, 1993).

In response to this inquiry three eminent Muslim scholars issued their legal opinions:

Sheikh Manna` K. Al-Qubtan, professor of Higher studies at the School of Islamic Law in Riyadh, indicates that:

Basically, the command of non-Muslims over Muslims in not admissible, because God Almighty said: 'Allah will not give access to the infidels (i.e. Christians) to have authority over believers (Muslims) {Qur'an 4:141}. For God - Glory be to Him - has elevated Muslims to the highest rank (over all men) and foreordained to them the might, by virtue of the Qurtanic text in which God the Almighty said: 'Might and strength be to Allah, the Prophet (Muhammad) and the believers (Muslims) {Qur'an 63:8}.
Thus, the authority of non-Muslim over a Muslim is incompatible with these two verses, since the Muslim has to submit to and obey whoever is in charge over him. The Muslim, therefore becomes inferior to him, and this should not be the case with the Muslim.

Dr. Salih Al-Sadlan, professor of Shari`a at the School of Islamic Law, Riyadh, cites the same verses and asserts that it is not permissible for a infidel (in this case is a Christian) to be in charge over Muslims whether in the private or public sector. Such an act:

"entails the humiliaton of the Muslim and the exaltation of the infidel (Christian). This infidel may exploit his position to humiliate and insult the Muslims who work under his administration. It is advisable to the company owner to fear God Almighty and to authorize only a Muslim over the Muslims. Also, the injunctions issued by the ruler, provides that an infidel should not be in charge when there is a Muslim available to assume the command. Our advice to the company owner is to remove this infidel and to replace him with a Muslim."
In his response Dr. Fahd Al-`Usaymi, professor of Islamic studies at the Teachers' College in Riyadh, remarks that the Muslim owner of the company should seek a Muslim employee who is better than the Christian (manager), or equal to him or even less qualified but has the ability to be trained to obtain the same skill enjoyed by the Christian. It is not permissible for a Christian to be in charge of Muslims by the virtue of the general evidences which denote the superiority of the Muslim over others. Then he quotes (Qur'an 63:8) and also cites verse 22 of Chapter 58:

Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred.
`Usaymi claims that being under the authority of a Christian may force Muslims to flatter him and humiliate themselves to this infidel on the hope to obtain some of what he has. This is against the confirmed evidences. Then he alludes to the story of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab the second Caliph, who was displeased with one of his governors who appointed a Zimmi as a treasurer, and remarked: "Have the wombs of women become sterile that they gave birth only to this man?" Then `Usaymi adds:

Muslims should fear God in their Muslim brothers and train them... for honesty and fear of God are, originally, in the Muslim, contrary to the infidel (the Christian) who, originally, is dishonest and does not fear God.
Does this mean that a Christian who owns a business cannot employ a Muslim to work for him? Even worse, does this mean that a Zimmi, regardless of his unequal qualification, cannot be appointed to the right position where he would serve his country the best? This question demands an answer.

Freedom of Expression
Mawdudi, who is more lenient than most Muslim scholars, presents a revolutionary opinion when he emphasizes that in an Islamic state:

"all non-Muslims will have thc freedom of conscience, opinion, expression, and association as the one enjoyed by Muslims themselves, subject to the same limitations as are imposed by law on Muslims."
Mawdudi's views are not accepted by most Islamic schools of law, especially in regard to freedom of expression like criticism of Islam and the government. Even in a country like Pakistan, the homeland of Mawdudi, it is illegal to criticize the government or the head of state. Many political prisoners are confined to jails in Pakistan and most other Islamic countries. Through the course of history. except in rare cases, not even Muslims have been given freedom to criticize Islam without being persecuted or sentenced to death. It is far less likely for a Zimmi to get away with criticizing Islam.

In Mawdudi's statement, the term "limitations" is vaguely defined. If it were explicitly defined, you would find, in the final analysis, that it curbs any type of criticism against the Islamic faith and government.

article
 
surenderer said:
My apologies then thats the argument that I hear most from my RL friends.....so what religious and legal rights does Islam deny others?

What kind of rights can one expect from people who venerate this charming fellow:

Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”
 
slotty said:
Why do all these nutters keep arguing over who invented god? Was it Marx who said religion is the opium of the masses?

I think all orginised religion is rubbish, but islam is by far the most evil. Hopefully one day all religion will be eradicated, and we can advance as a race.


Please add my voice to your sentiments. Bah Hum Bug. :mad:
 
fadeaway humper said:
What kind of rights can one expect from people who venerate this charming fellow:

Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”



Lies...show me in the Koran where the killing of innocents is allowed.....not from some fairy tale story
 
surenderer said:
Lies...show me in the Koran where the killing of innocents is allowed.....not from some fairy tale story

Heh. So you think Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" is a bunch of lies. I guess he was a CIA agent, or worse yet, a Joo. You'd better warn all those islamic stores that are selling it, if you want to curb this most odious slandering of good ol' Mo.

Anyway, your unwillingness to acknowledge the muslim-documented murdering nature of your prophet honours you as a decent humang being, no doubt. But what about the muslims who don't see nothing wrong in Mohammed's biography? What does it say about them? Or are they a minority?
 
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