What do we really mean by "God"?

wynn said:
Apart from your false generalization that I was speaking of all theists -

If you read my post you're replying to, I am speaking for myself:
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Well, you were speaking of all theists, so you might as well drop the act. As for "if you read the posts," I turn the comment back around on you and ask that you please just answer the questions posed to you. Instead of nitpicking one thing that allows you to completely avoid the questions, actually have some integrity and answer the questions.

I imagine it is an experience that you, too, have had with theists: Have you ever felt that any theist who was preaching to you, actually put themselves in your shoes and tried to see things from your perspective? Was there ever such a theist?

Perhaps there are such theists - I have not met any, and, more importantly, a good case can be made that it would be against their very effort to proselytize to actually place themselves in the shoes of the skeptic person they are preaching to. Because if those preaching theists would actually place themselves in the shoes of skeptics, that would be the end of preaching.
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So, in other words, you do not believe there are any theists who are different in any fundamental way than the ones you're talking about. Yet you rail against me for saying you paint with a broad brush. Your post amounts to "I'm not saying they're all like that, but they must be if they want to call themselves theists. So...they're all like that."

And since I do have integrity, I'll answer your question: Yes, there ever was such a theist. There are plenty, actually. My mother believes in God, yet she fits your description of someone who is kind and fair. I think most theists are like this. Sure, there are some who are judgmental and rude, but empathy is part of being human, so there's really no way to avoid putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Some may fight that instinct, but it's usually there.

I wish you'd give some examples, but you won't, so what's the point in asking anymore? You're probably making it up anyway.

One important difference between you and me is that you seem to have a largely depersonalized approach to the topic of belief in God - as if belief in God would be the same kind of thing as believing there is, say, a chair in the next room. It's basically, a unilateral effort, a one-way relationship.
Whereas I point out also the personal, subjectifying nature of belief in God - I take issues of belief in God similarly as when two people getting to know eachother and having a relationship: both need to make an effort, both need to get involved - it's a bilateral effort.
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A bilateral effort between whom? A person and God? You understand that what you're saying here then is that in order to believe in God, God must be real? Clearly, this is not how belief works. The real difference between you and me is that I don't try to compensate for my unbelief by cooking up these absurd theories. "A theist isn't a theist unless they devote their every action to faith," or "You can't believe in God without God speaking to you." Nonsense. And, I think, childish.

Note that some theists also take the unilateralist approach to belief in God, and I tend to clash with them too.
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Yes, because that's the only safety net you have left. If you didn't, you'd be forced to consider a new perspective. GASP!
 
Balerion said:
I imagine it is an experience that you, too, have had with theists: Have you ever felt that any theist who was preaching to you, actually put themselves in your shoes and tried to see things from your perspective? Was there ever such a theist?

Perhaps there are such theists - I have not met any, and, more importantly, a good case can be made that it would be against their very effort to proselytize to actually place themselves in the shoes of the skeptic person they are preaching to. Because if those preaching theists would actually place themselves in the shoes of skeptics, that would be the end of preaching.
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And since I do have integrity, I'll answer your question: Yes, there ever was such a theist. There are plenty, actually. My mother believes in God, yet she fits your description of someone who is kind and fair. I think most theists are like this. Sure, there are some who are judgmental and rude, but empathy is part of being human, so there's really no way to avoid putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Some may fight that instinct, but it's usually there.
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Does your mother preach to you? Does she place herself into your position of a skeptic or atheist?
 
That "god" is a different entity between the old and new testaments is enough in itself.
That the modern "god" has as many different definitions as there are religions, sects, and individuals free enough to contemplate their own truth without persecution, is further proof that the concept is a creation only of Man.

Truth, by definition, is static.
"God" is not.
 
The Marquis said:
That "god" is a different entity between the old and new testaments is enough in itself.
That the modern "god" has as many different definitions as there are religions, sects, and individuals free enough to contemplate their own truth without persecution, is further proof that the concept is a creation only of Man.

Truth, by definition, is static.
"God" is not.
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You merely have no perimeters on a theory of the being God. I have boundaries on an eternal existence God would have to follow if he is worth his salt. For example, Heaven will be loved, perfected, passive, believed etc, and none of these things greedy, raped, or tortured, etc for all eternity. If you are serious about finding God then ask yourself who produced both perfection, and murder. My theory is Love (proper noun, a man) did it.
 
Right, so your idea of god conforms to your own understanding of morality... and if he isn't all that, he isn't god.

Got it.
 
I suppose we should all be at least partially thankful that, in this time, god is to conform to us, rather than us conforming to god.

That's progress.

Isn't it?
 
Balerion said:
Man, what an ego on you. In order to be able to see through your paper-thin facade, I must be enlightened! Wow.

Something thinks highly of herself, don't she?
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Should I kill myself, would that finally make you happy?
 
Yeah, I should defend things I never claimed!

You really have perfected the art of the mindfuck.
 
wynn said:
You really have perfected the art of the mindfuck.
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Other people can't fuck your mind, you can only do that to yourself.

Several people who post here do like to play trollish ego-games. That's why I think that they are probably adolescents.

The way to handle that kind of person is is to simply refuse to play their game. If they write something interesting, then respond to the intelligent content with intelligent content of your own. Require them to act like a grownup if they want to interact with you.

If you believe that they are simply trying to provoke you emotionally for their own pleasure, then simply ignore them. Don't get into a back-and-forth with them (as you have done here) and never, ever, display any weakness to somebody like that. (It's best not to display any emotion to them at all.)

Just say whatever you want to say, as thoughtfully and as persuasively as you can say it, and then let it stand on its own merits. Only respond to other people if you (not they) feel that what they've written merits your attention.

If you believe that somebody's response to something you wrote doesn't need a reply, then there's no harm in letting that person have the last word.
 
Yazata said:
Other people can't fuck your mind, you can only do that to yourself.
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I understand what you mean, and agree, but there is more to these things when it comes to discussing "GOD."

I think some, if not many, people resort to atheism, even strong atheism, as a way to protect themselves from the unwholesome dynamics that tend to go on between theists and those they preach to.
That is, the theists expect us, the non-theists to simply unconditionally trust the theists on the topic of "GOD," while we cannot but acknowledge that the only source of all input on the topic of "GOD" are theists, we have no first-hand knowledge.
Some atheists rewrite notions of theism altogether so that it becomes easier to reject (and then take out their issues with theism on non-theists).


Like you said once - "God has my phone number, if He wants something from me, He knows where to find me."
I suppose the real challenge in matters of "GOD" is to let GOD pick up the phone, as opposed to one desperately dialing the numbers that were given to one by various theists.
 
wynn said:
I think some, if not many, people resort to atheism, even strong atheism, as a way to protect themselves from the unwholesome dynamics that tend to go on between theists and those they preach to.
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I've always been something of an atheist, for as long as I can remember (even as a child). But I don't recall a whole lot of unwholesome dynamics taking place between myself and the theists around me. My family was/is quite secular and religiously eclectic. They didn't really concern themselves with what my religious beliefs were, if any. My community was/is pretty much the same. I don't recall anyone preaching to me until I was an adult, and then it was because I sought it out because of my own curiosity.

That is, the theists expect us, the non-theists to simply unconditionally trust the theists on the topic of "GOD,"
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Several of my closest associates are deeply religious people. And they speak freely about their beliefs and faith. That's fine with me, it's something that's important to them. But I don't think that any of them expect me to unconditionally trust what they say on these matters. They fully expect that I won't.

while we cannot but acknowledge that the only source of all input on the topic of "GOD" are theists, we have no first-hand knowledge.
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I can't entirely agree with that, because I don't want to flatly dismiss the possibility of theistic sorts of religious experience. The psychology and epistemology these events are obviously open to discussion, but I want to at least acknowledge that people around the world report many varieties of what they interpret as transcendent experiences.

At this point, I'm reasonably convinced that religious experiences do happen, and that sometimes they can be totally convincing to the person experiencing them. But they aren't nearly as convincing to outside observers. Just because somebody else acquires an unshakable belief, doesn't mean that what they believe is literally true. (There are schizophrenics who are totally convinced that the CIA has hidden machines in the walls, beaming crazy thoughts into people's heads. Believing that doesn't mean that it's true.)

Like you said once - "God has my phone number, if He wants something from me, He knows where to find me."
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Right. If there is a God, and if that God feels that it's important that I believe in him, then he's free to contact me directly any time he wants.

I haven't had any experiences like that. An occasional sense of transcendent mystery certainly (that's probably the thing that's motivated my lifelong interest in philosophy), but nothing that suggests any personal agency, and nothing that even remotely verifies any of the traditional theistic religions.

So yeah, all of the (supposed) information about God that I'm exposed to always seems to come, directly or indirectly, from another human being. I don't believe in God so that's precisely what I would expect, but I'm at least holding open the theoretical possibility that I'm wrong.

I suppose the real challenge in matters of "GOD" is to let GOD pick up the phone, as opposed to one desperately dialing the numbers that were given to one by various theists.
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I don't believe in God, so I'm not really motivated to frantically dial numbers. (All this talk about "God" is kind of academic to me.) That's not to say that I'm not seriously interested in non-theistic forms of religiosity.
 
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