What did Jesus say?

[Medicine*Woman]

davewhite04: Hello Medicine Woman,

Yes, I agree truth is relative to the person. But how does scientific and archeological evidence support your belief?
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M*W: No, I don't agree that truth is 'relative to the person.' Truth is equal for all -- whether or not all choose to believe it.

Scientific and archeological evidence proves what the truth really is. Christians are afraid to search the truth because they blindly believe. Christians who search the evidence risk bursting their bubble of faith, so they avoid it. All the christians I know stay within the boundaries of their beliefs, because they are afraid to venture into the 'unknown' or 'unthinkable.' Basically, they choose to stay comfortable within what they blindly believe.

To answer your question, the scientific and archeological evidence is the only source of what is the real truth. This evidence disqualifies much of what the bible and christianity have taught for two thousand of years. I prefer knowledge over blind faith.

 

[davewhite04]

No, I don't agree that truth is 'relative to the person.' Truth is equal for all -- whether or not all choose to believe it.

Really, care to proove your theory then?

Scientific and archeological evidence proves what the truth really is.

Yes, good science and archeology does just that.

Everything else you said is the same stuff you've been regurgitating for months. Religion and good science can work perfectly well hand in hand.

To answer your question, the scientific and archeological evidence is the only source of what is the real truth. This evidence disqualifies much of what the bible and christianity have taught for two thousand of years. I prefer knowledge over blind faith.

So I ask again where is your scientific and archeological evidence for your theory?

Dave

 

[Medicine*Woman]

davewhite04: Really, care to proove your theory then?

Yes, good science and archeology does just that.

Everything else you said is the same stuff you've been regurgitating for months. Religion and good science can work perfectly well hand in hand.
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M*W: Thus far religion and science do not work well hand in hand.
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davewhite04: So I ask again where is your scientific and archeological evidence for your theory?
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M*W: What specific evidence are you asking for?

 

[davewhite04]

Thus far religion and science do not work well hand in hand.

Really, do you know how many religious people have contributed to the evolution of science? My favourite example is Sir Isaac Newton, but there are many more. In fact in your country many colleges or whatever that teach science were founded by Christians.

What specific evidence are you asking for?

Where is the scientific or archeological proof that Jesus was married and had kids and moved to Europe?

Dave

 

[Medicine*Woman]

davewhite04: Really, do you know how many religious people have contributed to the evolution of science? My favourite example is Sir Isaac Newton, but there are many more. In fact in your country many colleges or whatever that teach science were founded by Christians.
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M*W: For starters, I recommend the research done by Laurence Gardner in Bloodline of the Holy Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed, 1996. Laurence Gardner is The Chevalier Labran de St Germain and genealogist to the royal family. You may be able to look it up online. There are many more books that reveal Jesus' genealogy, but I recommend this one to start out. You may want to look up Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels. She is a religion scholar at Princeton and has written several award winning books on this subject.


Where is the scientific or archeological proof that Jesus was married and had kids and moved to Europe?

Dave[/QUOTE]

 

[Red Devil]

The only gospels I believe in are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These non-canonical books of the bible were written by various churches who heard the good news of Christ, but without any foundation. A commitee of church leaders put the bible together based on what was historically accurate. Remember, this was about the time of the eyewitnesses' deaths. Their sons got in touch with the churches and helped sort out what was correct and what wasn't. The books that didn't make the cut were excluded from the bible.

I pray that I have spoken truth.

what about the 40 gospels that the church removed from the "original" 400 years AD? Purportedly written by Jesus himself and Mary Magdelene.

 

[patcho]

M*W: Since I've researched MM for the past 14 years, I am confident in what I have learned. Believe what you want, but Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code was only a novel, although he discussed some of the research biblical scholars have done and copied their work, and the Da Vinci Code was NOT the first published document regarding Jesus and MM. You would have known this if you had done any kind of research. Obviously, you don't know enough about this subject to even comment. I suggest you address your silly ideas to the other christians on this forum, because you and the other christians are lacking in scientific and archeological knowledge.

You may have noticed that I said that the Da Vinci code has brought the idea to prominence, which is why many people have been talking about it recently, I did not say that it was the first published document on the idea! My silly ideas are accepted throughout the world by the HUGE majority of scholars - ever thought to read some good studies of the Bible and its creation instead of quackpot rubbish? 14 years ay? perhaps this would have been better spent doing something else...

 

[davewhite04]

M*W: For starters, I recommend the research done by Laurence Gardner in Bloodline of the Holy Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed, 1996. Laurence Gardner is The Chevalier Labran de St Germain and genealogist to the royal family. You may be able to look it up online. There are many more books that reveal Jesus' genealogy, but I recommend this one to start out. You may want to look up Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels. She is a religion scholar at Princeton and has written several award winning books on this subject.

The case looks closed to me! I mean with all this scientific and archeological proof... There is one place where the genealogy of Jesus is covered in great depth, and it was recorded a long time ago, but obviously this won't do.

Dave

 

[Lori_7]

MW,

You are wise to reject blind faith...that which is so perpetuated by organized relgion...especially catholicism, with all of it's rituals and ceremonies. What you felt within it was an evil spirit. The one who seeks to replace our personal relationship with God through Christ with the organization itself...a personal relationship with a priest instead. And you're right...it's a lie. But MW, that does not mean that Jesus is not who He says He is. I know Him, and He is the Son of God...He is the Saviour...He is just misrepresented by organized religion.

See MW, just as you had followed blind faith regarding Christianity then, you are now substituting another belief, and following blind faith regarding it now as well. What you need to do is seek the truth from the source Himself. Unless you have proof, you can never have knowledge...only speculation. You need proof, and proof only comes from experience. See, you did not tell me the truth before when you said you were born again. Being born again is not of blind faith...or from being a part of an organization. Being born again is of a personal interaction with God Himself. One that you can not deny...one in which there is no doubt...one that changes you forever.

MW, you don't understand me or what I have been through...you can't unless you go through it yourself. But I tell you sincerely...if you do want to know the truth as you claim, you will seek it from God Himself. How can you say that you seek the truth when you already have your mind made up? I can tell you certainly from by objective observation, that all you're doing now is seeking to validate what you already believe. And you are wrong MW.

What you learned while at the Vatican was true...what you felt was...

Mystery
Babylon The Great
The Mother of Prostitutes
And of the Abominations of the Earth

THAT is what you felt that turned you away. THAT MW is a quote right out of the Bible...the Book of Revelation. See, the Bible actually confirms what you felt about organized religion. MW, it's not about organized religion...it's about something much, much more. Please consider what I'm saying to you...I'm telling you the truth.

I cried in St. Marks because of the same reason...that same feeling that you described. There wasn't even a mass going on, we were just touring. I was embarrassed by my emotion and tried to gulp it down but it was difficult...the feeling of loss was so strong upon me. MW, I know what you're talking about. This miracle that I've experienced has everything to do with revealing the prophecy in the Book of Revelation...and the mystery of Babylon is a huge part of it.

I pray that you find the truth. But remember that you can't do it with a closed heart and mind...always remain humble and sincere...no matter what.

Love,

Lori

 

[Medicine*Woman]

patcho: You may have noticed that I said that the Da Vinci code has brought the idea to prominence, which is why many people have been talking about it recently, I did not say that it was the first published document on the idea!
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M*W: Okay, I understand your point about The Da Vinci Code. It may discuss relevant research that others have done, but it was published as a novel. Unless a publication has references that I can cross-check and confirm, I don't consider a novel to be held among scientific or archeological evidence.
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patcho: My silly ideas are accepted throughout the world by the HUGE majority of scholars - ever thought to read some good studies of the Bible and its creation instead of quackpot rubbish? 14 years ay? perhaps this would have been better spent doing something else...
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M*W: I have studied the bible thoroughly. I went to a baptist university but became a Roman Catholic catechist for many years. I've studied religion ever since, especially christianity, because I wanted to know what made it tick. When I found out the truth, I separated myself from it, and I grieved for my loss. Moreover, I grieved because I had believed a lie for so long. The 14 years I spent searching certianly did not occupy my whole life, and I assure you that not only did I spend my life doing something else, I have been very successful at it as well as many other interests as well. What you call "quackpot rubbish" is what will finally bring christianity down. In case you haven't checked lately, the numbers are drastically falling even as we speak. Only 25% of the world's population calls themselves "christian." The other 75% of the world are non-christian. Can you say "buh-bye?"

 

[patcho]

Look when you bring up books like Bloodline of the Holy Grail, how am I not to think you read quackpot rubbish?! I had a quick look and here's a good site that should answer many of your questions - http://www.tektonics.org/

25% of the world is Christian? When was it ever higher? Christianity may be declining in Western nations but not so in Asia and Africa (not sure about South America) and anyway, the decline is most definitly not due to these ideas of the new testament being a lie, but more so because people do not see it as relevant anymore.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

patcho: Look when you bring up books like Bloodline of the Holy Grail, how am I not to think you read quackpot rubbish?! I had a quick look and here's a good site that should answer many of your questions - http://www.tektonics.org/
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M*W: Obviously you choose to remain in a delusional state. The link you provided is pure rubbish! I am NOT a christian. Why would I want to read the rubbish YOU believe? There is nothing more we can discuss. I won't address anything else to you, and I would appreciate the same from you.

 

[okinrus]

When I found out the truth, I separated myself from it, and I grieved for my loss.

But all you've said so far is that you got a cold feeling in one church. There could be many reasons for this, none of which have to do with Christianity in general.

Moreover, I grieved because I had believed a lie for so long. The 14 years I spent searching certianly did not occupy my whole life, and I assure you that not only did I spend my life doing something else, I have been very successful at it as well as many other interests as well.

You don't have the unequivocable evidence, only the opinions of a few biblical researchers, who by the way make their money selling books.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

okinrus: But all you've said so far is that you got a cold feeling in one church. There could be many reasons for this, none of which have to do with Christianity in general.
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M*W: What I said was that my experience in St. Peter's made my 'skin crawl.' It just 'felt' evil to me, and I went there on a religious pilgrimage, certainly not anticipating what I would feel. Prior to The Vatican, I visited Lourdes, Fatima, Nevers, Chartres Cathedral, Notre Dame in Paris, Avignon, France, the dungeon where Peter and Paul were jailed and assassinated, St. John Lateran in Rome, the Catacombs, many lesser known churches displaying Jesus and Mary crying or bleeding whose names I have forgotten. I assumed The Vatican experience would top them all, but I failed to see this 'holy site' as joyous or spiritual or even realistic in my eyes. I was an overwhelming 'aura' or 'ambience' of darkness and evil. I tried to shake my sensations, because I wanted to absorb everything I could -- because this was MY church! This was the very heart of my beliefs! I found contradictions between what I had believed before I went there, and what I found when I was there. For example, as you know, we were taught that heaven is a spiritual place after death, yet the keys to the kingdom of heaven (St. Peter's keys) at the high altar were simply huge brass keys. I told myself that this was simply symbolic and wouldn't really unlock heaven. There were a lot of pagan statues and symbols of the devil everywhere! It was very confusing. In St. Peter's Basilica, of course it was dedicated to St. Peter and had his image everywhere, even more abundantly than Jesus or Mary. I went there a catholic believer and I came home a doubter, and I tried for many years as I have said to reconcile my feelings. It took years to search for the truth. While I was searching for the truth to confirm what I had believed, I learned more than I wanted to. So here I am today.
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okinrus: You don't have the unequivocable evidence, only the opinions of a few biblical researchers, who by the way make their money selling books.
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M*W: I've never said I had evidence that The Vatican wasn't real. I can only tell my story. Maybe I'm the only catholic in the world that this is happened to. I don't know. I only trust books that have cross-referenced texts that are verifiable. I've been on both sides of the street -- reading only papal approved literature and reading everything else. Catholicity is dying, especially in Italy! Well, it's been communist ruled since 1978. I wish I could tell a different story, and I'd probably still be a catholic, but it just didn't happen that way. To remain a catholic, my soul would have been sucked right out of me, and I truly have no regrets. The world became a better place when I refused to let them take my soul.

 

[patcho]

There is nothing more we can discuss. I won't address anything else to you, and I would appreciate the same from you.

I guess you're right, your understanding of Christianity is far too limited for reasoned debate.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

patcho: I guess you're right, your understanding of Christianity is far too limited for reasoned debate.
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M*W: Hah! That'll be the day!