What counts as proof?

[toltec]

Often atheists ask theists to prove god exists. If for example the theist then uses the bible as proof the atheist will quickly say this doesn't count.

So what I'm interested in is what would count as proof.

For example, if like in The Holy Grail god parted the clouds and put his head through, this would count as proof but is a little absurd to expect. So I would some more feet firmly on the gorund examples if possible.

as a second question I'd also like to know what would count as scientific proof. By scientific I mean evidence based, testable, repeatable in laboratories around the world and falsifable.

So can anyone give me any examples.

thanks.

 

[jpappl]

Often atheists ask theists to prove god exists. If for example the theist then uses the bible as proof the atheist will quickly say this doesn't count.

So what I'm interested in is what would count as proof.

For example, if like in The Holy Grail god parted the clouds and put his head through, this would count as proof but is a little absurd to expect. So I would some more feet firmly on the gorund examples if possible.

as a second question I'd also like to know what would count as scientific proof. By scientific I mean evidence based, testable, repeatable in laboratories around the world and falsifable.

So can anyone give me any examples.

thanks.

Just cut off your arm and pray to have god replace it with a new arm, nothing artificial.

Then again god could still exist just not the one you believe in. Which is why the prayer didn't work. That would suck.

You just lost an arm and found out you are going to have to keep chopping stuff off until you find the right god to send your prayers.

Why do you need to prove to atheists that god exists ?

 

[Lori_7]

Just cut off your arm and pray to have god replace it with a new arm, nothing artificial.

Then again god could still exist just not the one you believe in. Which is why the prayer didn't work. That would suck.

You just lost an arm and found out you are going to have to keep chopping stuff off until you find the right god to send your prayers.

Why do you need to prove to atheists that god exists ?

you don't need to, you can't according to their own standards, but you know a lot of atheists on this board ask theists to do it anyway.

and what in the hell do you think god is anyway? some dumb-ass genie in a bottle?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Often atheists ask theists to prove god exists. If for example the theist then uses the bible as proof the atheist will quickly say this doesn't count.

So what I'm interested in is what would count as proof.

For example, if like in The Holy Grail god parted the clouds and put his head through, this would count as proof but is a little absurd to expect. So I would some more feet firmly on the gorund examples if possible.

as a second question I'd also like to know what would count as scientific proof. By scientific I mean evidence based, testable, repeatable in laboratories around the world and falsifable.

So can anyone give me any examples.

thanks.

"Proof" is not something you will be able to provide outside of mathematics. It means that every single variable involved is known. What atheists will ask for is evidence. That is a demonstration that the concept in your mind (ex. "God" exists) matches actual reality. Valid demonstrations would be producing an instance of "God" or demonstrating an effect of "God" (ex. a Miracle).

 

[jpappl]

you don't need to, you can't according to their own standards, but you know a lot of atheists on this board ask theists to do it anyway.

and what in the hell do you think god is anyway? some dumb-ass genie in a bottle?

We ask when theists claim they know, and not just claim belief.

I think some people do believe that god is like a genie in a bottle. I mean just look at how many point to the sky when they score a touchdown.

A good OP to start would be, if all of those who believe are praying to god for peace, then god is obviously not answering them.

Or, maybe they are just selfish and asking for things like their arms to grow back or to score a touchdown in the big game.

Bottom line is, when god starts to make people's arms grow back the rest of us might start paying attention.

But that's not how god works now is it.

 

[Lori_7]

We ask when theists claim they know, and not just claim belief.

I think some people do believe that god is like a genie in a bottle. I mean just look at how many point to the sky when they score a touchdown.

A good OP to start would be, if all of those who believe are praying to god for peace, then god is obviously not answering them.

Or, maybe they are just selfish and asking for things like their arms to grow back or to score a touchdown in the big game.

Bottom line is, when god starts to make people's arms grow back the rest of us might start paying attention.

But that's not how god works now is it.

peace isn't good enough? i've got peace, in the midst of calamity, because of my relationship with god. that peace is proof, but it doesn't meet the standards does it? i don't know how many people would actually pray for peace if they knew the cost associated with it, but perhaps they are regardless, and it'll be a big surprise.

 

[Lori_7]

"Proof" is not something you will be able to provide outside of mathematics. It means that every single variable involved is known. What atheists will ask for is evidence. That is a demonstration that the concept in your mind (ex. "God" exists) matches actual reality. Valid demonstrations would be producing an instance of "God" or demonstrating an effect of "God" (ex. a Miracle).

that's funny because i just watched a documentary about fractal geometry the other night and handel's "messiah" hallelujah chorus may as well have been playing in the background. i see law, order and beauty, and i see god. but they want "miracles"?

like the weird stuff?

i had some weird stuff happen to me several years ago, and you know what atheists on this board have to say about that. isn't it safe to assume that if they experienced what i did they would have thought they were hallucinating or insane and checked themselves into the hospital? i don't really see the point of that.

doesn't the catholic church have a bunch of miracles "on record"? statues crying blood and stuff?

i mean really...what do they want?

 

[queengeek]

Unfortunately in life there are some things that there is no evidence for. In the dawn of time there was no evidence of other planets and galaxies yet man believed there was something more out there.(look up the cave paintings yourself) and with modern technology we have discovered that these believes that may have been considered misguided at the time are now common knowledge. So who is to say that 50 years down the road there will be solid evidence to those topics that currently have none.

 

[jpappl]

peace isn't good enough? i've got peace, in the midst of calamity, because of my relationship with god. that peace is proof, but it doesn't meet the standards does it? i don't know how many people would actually pray for peace if they knew the cost associated with it, but perhaps they are regardless, and it'll be a big surprise.

World peace isn't good enough ?

A question.

What do you think would change in the world if everyone believed in god ?

Not behaved in a manner that you do, or want the same things that you want for the world. But just believed in god, no more atheists.

Would that change anything ?

 

[Lori_7]

World peace isn't good enough ?

what would it take to achieve that? humanity says, "nuclear weapons". oh the irony.

A question.

What do you think would change in the world if everyone believed in god ?

Not behaved in a manner that you do, or want the same things that you want for the world. But just believed in god, no more atheists.

Would that change anything ?

you mean believe for a good reason, because they know god? it would change their perception, which would change their thoughts, which would change their behavior, which would change the world.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

that's funny because i just watched a documentary about fractal geometry the other night and handel's "messiah" hallelujah chorus may as well have been playing in the background. i see law, order and beauty, and i see god. but they want "miracles"?

like the weird stuff?

Yep, like stuff that is far beyond our technical capabilities or just flat out violates the laws of physics (ex. turning someone into a pillar of salt).

i had some weird stuff happen to me several years ago, and you know what atheists on this board have to say about that. isn't it safe to assume that if they experienced what i did they would have thought they were hallucinating or insane and checked themselves into the hospital? i don't really see the point of that.

If you don't have evidence of what happened to you being external then its something localized to your mind.

doesn't the catholic church have a bunch of miracles "on record"? statues crying blood and stuff?

Every religion has "records" of status crying blood, milk, honey, pee, you name it.

i mean really...what do they want?

A demonstration of course.

 

[birch]

you mean believe for a good reason, because they know god? it would change their perception, which would change their thoughts, which would change their behavior, which would change the world.

how clueless. most people in the world are theists. the two major religions are christianity and islam.

how many more times does something need to be repeated that you don't just let in one ear and out the other?

 

[Skeptical]

Evidence has to be that which would be acceptable in a peer reviewed reputable scientific journal. We demand that for normal scientific advances, such as a new drug. So why would that be unreasonable as a demand for evidence for deity?

Personally, as I have said before, for me, it would not take much. God comes down to Earth and says hello, introducing him/her/itself, performs a few miracles, and then leaves me with a permanent supernatural ability so I will never think it was just a dream, and zaps off. Not a problem for an omnipotent deity.

Has not happened yet, and I have been waiting for 61 years.

I am not prepared to accept the kind of evidence Lori offers, which is a totally subjective and personal feeling of supernatural contact, along with a bad back that heals. Bad backs usually get better after a few days, so that is not really much evidence. Supernatural sensations can be induced by psilocybin ingestion, or malnutrition, or hypoxia etc. So an abnormal neural effect is not really much in the way of evidence, either.

 

[Raithere]

peace isn't good enough? i've got peace, in the midst of calamity, because of my relationship with god. that peace is proof, but it doesn't meet the standards does it? i don't know how many people would actually pray for peace if they knew the cost associated with it, but perhaps they are regardless, and it'll be a big surprise.

I probably wouldn't be entirely convinced that God existed but it would certainly go a long way towards me believing that something about religion was credible. That maybe there was something there I was missing and worth further investigation.

The problem is that statistically it doesn't exist. Theists proclaim this kind of thing all the time. That their religion gives them a special peace and understanding, a morality greater than man's, a better way of living, or that God protects them but it just doesn't show up in the numbers.

Statistically they're just like everyone else with the same violent tendencies, the same troubles, the same death and injury rates, the same spectrum of anti-social and immoral behavior.

~Raithere

 

[Sarkus]

Unfortunately in life there are some things that there is no evidence for. In the dawn of time there was no evidence of other planets and galaxies yet man believed there was something more out there.(look up the cave paintings yourself) and with modern technology we have discovered that these believes that may have been considered misguided at the time are now common knowledge. So who is to say that 50 years down the road there will be solid evidence to those topics that currently have none.

When you say "no evidence", you are of course discounting the stars moving across the sky, the moon, the meteors they would have seen, comets etc? Yep - there was clearly no evidence at all. :shrug:

 

[arfa brane]

Proof for the existence of God can't be found in the material world, it has to be something internal.

An external God only makes sense if you know there is an internal one. The personal experience explains why things like apotheoses, sudden enlightenment, religious trances and the whole meditation thing exist.

So proof of God's existence isn't and can't be something you can pull out of a pocket and show someone. But if you show someone how to meditate, and they eventually realise that God isn't "out there" because they can "see it" inside themselves, that constitutes proof, but again, not the kind of proof you can write down like a formula.

That's like asking someone to prove they can see the same colors as you, or prove that say, an orange tastes the same to them as it does to you.

All you can do with personal experience is compare it, or try to relate it; you can't "prove" that your experience is the same as anyone else's, so there is no proof of God's existence in that sense. But you can prove that an orange tastes like, you know, an "orange", to yourself.

At least that's what I think.

 

[woowoo]

Proof for the existence of God can't be found in the material world, it has to be something internal.

An external God only makes sense if you know there is an internal one. The personal experience explains why things like apotheoses, sudden enlightenment, religious trances and the whole meditation thing exist.

So proof of God's existence isn't and can't be something you can pull out of a pocket and show someone. But if you show someone how to meditate, and they eventually realise that God isn't "out there" because they can "see it" inside themselves, that constitutes proof, but again, not the kind of proof you can write down like a formula.

That's like asking someone to prove they can see the same colors as you, or prove that say, an orange tastes the same to them as it does to you.

All you can do with personal experience is compare it, or try to relate it; you can't "prove" that your experience is the same as anyone else's, so there is no proof of God's existence in that sense. But you can prove that an orange tastes like, you know, an "orange", to yourself.

At least that's what I think.

Yes, I think you are absolutely spot on! what you are describing is the gnostic
view of our condition; atheists imagine that as some kind of subjective delusion because
they just can't see it for themselves. oh well....

 

[Lori_7]

I probably wouldn't be entirely convinced that God existed but it would certainly go a long way towards me believing that something about religion was credible. That maybe there was something there I was missing and worth further investigation.

The problem is that statistically it doesn't exist. Theists proclaim this kind of thing all the time. That their religion gives them a special peace and understanding, a morality greater than man's, a better way of living, or that God protects them but it just doesn't show up in the numbers.

Statistically they're just like everyone else with the same violent tendencies, the same troubles, the same death and injury rates, the same spectrum of anti-social and immoral behavior.

~Raithere

it shows up in my "numbers". my brother is an atheist, and while he doesn't understand what happened to me, he admittedly understands that something did happen to me.

but he knows, and i know, that he'll never understand unless it happens to him too.

 

[Lori_7]

Yes, I think you are absolutely spot on! what you are describing is the gnostic
view of our condition; atheists imagine that as some kind of subjective delusion because
they just can't see it for themselves. oh well....

i agree too. the proof is something that's given to you personally by god and that you experience on a personal level. in order to experience it, you have to be willing and open to it, which is something that many atheists constantly reiterate they are not, on this forum.

 

[Lori_7]

how clueless. most people in the world are theists. the two major religions are christianity and islam.

how many more times does something need to be repeated that you don't just let in one ear and out the other?

it's happened to me birch. it's something i've experienced.

you want to talk about clueless? how about you trying to pretend that you don't realize people use religion, and claim to believe in god, when they have no idea that god is real because they haven't experienced god and have no desire to? you don't realize that people are indoctrinated? that they practice religion because someone else wants them to, or because they think it makes them a "good person"? because they're lonely or codependent? because they want to make some tax free income? because they want the power over the masses? you get a clue. religion is not god, and practicing religion doesn't get you any closer to god, or allow you to know god. duh.